couple pics... post what your currently cutting

[Clark]

...and the few who had real logs and were unaware of the actual market will get fleeced. Just the nature of the game...

You do realize just how bad this makes all log buyers look? Especially coming from someone with your handle?

[chevytaHOE5674]

Hard to judge scale on the truck because we have no idea what the actual lengths vs the scaled/bought lengths were.

When I used to buy veneer, Birdseye, curl, etc especially in the warm months I would buy 10' logs as 8', 12s as 10s, 12s as 8s, etc. Was common to send a log truck out with say 9K feet of logs on it but only have it scaled at maybe 7K. We never paid truckers on footage as they would lose everytime hauling way more actual than scaled.

[so il logger]

Honestly it looks like a 3500 bdft load to me. 5-6k? No way

[stavebuyer]

...and the few who had real logs and were unaware of the actual market will get fleeced. Just the nature of the game...

You do realize just how bad this makes all log buyers look? Especially coming from someone with your handle?

The dark side of the business doesn't start or stop with less then ethical buyers. Landowner falsely claiming title or boundaries, Foresters marking high graded sales, loggers sending the odd load off the record when cutting on shares or to the handiest or best scaling mill if cutting per unit. A few will go above and beyond even when nobody is watching.  Some will borrow from the collection plate if given the chance. 

Timber, logs, acres, Uncle Bobs gun collection, whatever. Get bids. Plenty of stories of landowners coming up short. Many are valid and just as many are the unfamiliar equating cottonwood with Walnut veneer. Logs and timber are a commodity that bring a market price. Unlike most things where the money is made at the sale end; money in the timber business can really only be made on the buy. Sell the logs in the run or the standing trees marked. You don't need to know or care the grade and scale. In the upside down world of hardwood logs its generally the seller who needs to beware.

GET BIDS!

[nativewolf]

The ability to abuse a market situation always lies in favor with the market maker.  The more the maker has unequal knowledge the more they can abuse it.  From bankers to cattle buyers to oil traders.  It is why big commodity trading houses are huge and operate globally. 

Clearly WB did a fine job felling those in a difficult time crunch.  Clearly he had communicated, maybe too much, with the buyer.  Clearly a double truck load of 20" 16-21' sticks is a heck of a lot more than 3500bdft.  Sadly this is the price of an education when dealing with log buyers.  As stave buyer says, get bids if you can, be willing to sit, and cut good trees in the  best season.  

[cutterboy]

This has been a very serious discussion. So now something a bit frivolous and fun.
In the winter in a small patch of woods between two fields a clump of three aspens blew over. A couple days ago I cut six short logs from one of them and hauled them home. These will be sawed up into kindling.

  A few pictures for the fun of it.


 

 

 

 

 

 
As I was leaving with the third and last load the tractor was finding mud. I think I'll wait a few days before going back for the other two trees as it looks like warm and dry days ahead.

     Keep on cutting.....Cutter

[Peter Drouin]

I have scaled 100s of truckloads, Around here if I short-stick loggers, I won't get logs, I pay the same as the big mills.
Even the truckers know within 100 bf what they have on the truck just by the way the truck handles going down the road'
We have a sharp bunch in NH, 

[nativewolf]

This has been a very serious discussion. So now something a bit frivolous and fun.
In the winter in a small patch of woods between two fields a clump of three aspens blew over. A couple days ago I cut six short logs from one of them and hauled them home. These will be sawed up into kindling.

 A few pictures for the fun of it.


 

 

 

 

 

 
As I was leaving with the third and last load the tractor was finding mud. I think I'll wait a few days before going back for the other two trees as it looks like warm and dry days ahead.

    Keep on cutting.....Cutter

a little warmth and the trees sprouting should take care of that mud.  Nice pics as always

[nativewolf]

I have scaled 100s of truckloads, Around here if I short-stick loggers, I won't get logs, I pay the same as the big mills.
Even the truckers know within 100 bf what they have on the truck just by the way the truck handles going down the road'
We have a sharp bunch in NH,  

Yep that's it.  You are a constant buyer and they are a constant well informed seller.  Everyone knows the going rates- there is no information gap.  You looked at those trucks and immediately knew WB had been taken to the cleaners.  WB likely lost 10-15k but he gained a valuable bit of info and found out he could cut walnut well.   

[Walnut Beast]

Thanks for all the advice and input guys. Yes indeed it was a very expensive and valuable lesson that I will not make next time!! It's to bad you can't trust anybody no matter how nice they are.  I was so close to saying no way! But with thoughts running through my mind on the spot it was tough.  But the buyer insisted he was being fair and honest when I questioned the pricing and board footage. The mistake I made was trusting this buyer because two other guys I had met and talked to sold logs to him. I had two other numbers of buyers Meister out of Minnesota I  should have called that the guy used and one from Midwest that I had talked to months ago. This guy in Iowa that sold a large amount of logs told me that many of the buyers won't come if you  tell them to come and give you a bid. Thankfully some of the biggest and best stuff I still have. 

[stavebuyer]

I didn't see or scale the logs. When I bought or sold any good Walnut the logs were fresh clipped and rolled. No point of having the expense of a buyer's salary and expenses if one can determine grade, volume, and value via a cellphone picture posted on the internet. Most times in the summer around here the "year-round" buyers will be glad to come as long as you have a trailer load lot of fresh cut veneer. Tall order unless you cut around them and if you did you would be advised to wait for fall pricing. All the big players know when the overseas orders closed out until fall, what the log inventory is over at XYZ, and that the main buyer from ABC Veneer has been waiting for 9 months to go Walleye fishing in Canada and that his counterpart at DEF Veneer is on a beach in Cancun. It is their job to know the market as well as to procure the best logs at the lowest price point for their employer. One could argue anything less would be a breach of a fiduciary duty, same as the landowner's rep should be doing all he legally can to ensure the most advantageous sales price. If the only other buyer is a Walnut sawmill in MO then that's the true market value on Memorial Day weekend. Thats reality. Anybody that wants to put a hard offer on the 5000 bd/ft volume and add $20K to the price paid needs to start writing checks. I am sure Tracy would be glad to sell them at discount to that valuation.

Yield loss in summer is not a ploy, summer cut logs will yield 10-20% less due to splits, stain, and check. That 12' log cut after the first knot that only contains 9' of 4S veneer is only a 9' veneer log. You have 2 options. Keep 12' and sell it to a sawmill or let the veneer man buy it as a 9' and haul the firewood block home. He can't buy that log at an actual nine because by the time you an S iron and deal with that loss the log will be short of panel length and worthless.

WB had some well satisfied referrals so what gives? Memorial Day is what gives. The competition is long gone. You have one load of logs that is tree run so it includes a multiple sorts that would limit interest in the best of times. Nobody is coming hundreds of miles for a 1/3 of a load of logs in cornfield country. 

WB is obviously a man of many talents, but he is an unknown quantity in an area with little logger base. Who is going to load that partial load of logs 200 miles out of the loop if he doesn't answer the phone next month? Frankly without some background many buyers wouldn't show any interest in a small parcel of logs from an unknown supplier many miles out their territory. All valid business considerations. 

To have a "bid sale" youneed two things. First you need something attractive to draw bidders. Second you need bidders to bid. So what attracts buyers ? Large quantities of hard to find quality is what draws bids, gets the veneer mill owner on a plane to look for himself and offer optimal pricing.

Forget about the saw and the CTL. Number the trees, take pictures, work the phone and stir the pot. 10000bd ft of old growth walnut with an average dbh of 26" with an estimated 20000' of veneer. They will come and bring cashiers checks.

[barbender]

Stave, I've probably said it before but I'll say it again, I really value your insights from the buying side of the hardwood market. I don't want to be trashing this buyer if it is the case I don't really know what I'm talking about. Which, when it comes to walnut, I don't. If the items you mentioned (knocking logs back to the next length, and deducting recovery loss both due to summer weather, etc) are communicated beforehand and agreed on, no problem. And if it is standard practice this time of year, and it was simply an oversight that WB wasn't informed of it beforehand, that happens too. It's hard to know from a distance.

[OH logger]

That last post from stavebuyer is one million percent spot on. Selling high quality veneer walnut logs this time of the year is never a good idea. The fact is walnut beast needed to cut em now. The buyer came from hours away. I can understand bein frustrated but knowin what I know now I'd be glad anyone came. Tryin to bid out one load of woods run walnut around Memorial Day is a pipe dream. I'm no rocket scientist by any means now but I was even greener when I started in the loggin business. I know I learned a lot of dang expensive lessons. Still
Do from time to time and I can tell
You from my experience the more expensive the lesson the more it tends to stick
With me

[ehp]

Biggest thing here is know what your cutting before you cut it , lengths change day to day here on grade logs and veneer , You cut it the wrong length there goes lots  of coin . Everyone plays games buying logs , some give great scale but lower price per 1000 where next guy gives great price per 1000 but lower scale , you have to know what your load is worth and see what they come back at , I have no idea on what WB got for his logs but I do know I would of gotten more veneer than he did but most likely cut the lengths different . As far as 3500 feet on that load that is abit light on scale but its pretty easy to figure out just by what the truck weighed , I know here if I load a truck like that with veneer heading south about 4500 feet is all I can put on him before he is over weight

[ehp]

Was a good week here , good size trees but my god poison this poison that every where and everything tries to tear the clothes right off you, arms and legs bleeding steady but will be done this bush next week , Sent 8 loads this week but just the lead or front part of the truck, no way to get a trailer in here as my landing is on quite a hill , truck has been drawing almost 5000 feet a load so not bad , I should of made about 1/4 of the coin Barge made this week so thats pretty good for this old guy , ya I know I'm a has been  

[barbender]

Dang if you pulled down 1/4 of Barge money, you're still making the big bucks😊

[Firewoodjoe]

I didn't want to weigh in. Stave hit it  on the head. There's winners and losers. Long story short that business. 

[ehp]

Nobody makes as much coin as Barge and still be legal on what your doing , Barge is legal but has the market corner on how to make Big Coin with no bills or machine payments afterwards 

[Southside]

WB when you said the load was just under 69K do you mean the logs or the truck, trailer, and logs?  Did the buyer give you a detailed scale sheet? 

[Walnut Beast]

Buyer called after I sent him a text today and I told him what I thought about the situation and I'm not cashing the check till it gets sorted out. He seemed concerned. First we went over the board footage. I said many people that do this everyday seen the load and didn't think it was 3,500 what you told me. He says he said 3,750. We went into pricing and he tried to tell me to compare to some sawmills and I said that's not accurate that's why I went with you guys and not a sawmill for the quality and size of logs. And I should compare to a few other buyers with bids to see where you were at and I should have. I told him D in Iowa said he averaged 4.50 across the board on walnut and he didn't have veneer logs in that. Buyer claimed that wasn't true. I said I trusted you and I never contacted the other guys for bids and I should have. I question only five veneer logs. He claims I'm getting the same pricing as everyone in Iowa on everything but I'm paying more for trucking five hours away. Another thing I asked about that D in Iowa told me about how this buyer does it. Do I get deducted when you mark the logs at the lengths you want and then I cut. As opposed to having them at the various lengths and he said no. Thanks for the insight Stavebuyer.  I definitely learned the hard way and will be prepared next time for sure.

One thing I would like to know? Is it common with all buyers that just tell you price and give you a check without a tally sheet of what everything is and total board footage. I'm left with nothing and they tag every log and know everything about each log.

Southside the guy was reading the scale on the back of the trailer 

[chevytaHOE5674]

When I was buying logs everyday I had a handheld computer and after it was all scaled I would go back thru the logs and enter the scale and grade into it. I would then print out a ticket for the load. It would have every logs individual information (species, scale, grade, veneer, etc).

[so il logger]

The weight of that truck and that type trailer of walnut pretty much lines up with what I see about how that trailer is loaded and my assessment of a rough footage on that load. 35-3800 is right where it's at, honest to goodness. It's loaded for scale houses and dot inspection along the interstate. It's not a full load of logs. Maybe I been getting ripped off for 20 years? As far as price per ft this is impossible to discuss going off pics. I would venture to say you absolutely did not get skinned by 10-15k as previously stated. That's such a reach I can't even comprehend it. Facts are you are a 1 time and done seller to the buyer, you are far out of operating zone, and it appears they pre staged 2 trucks in anticipation of a larger lay out. Those 3 things will absolutely sway price per ft. But I don't see a huge short scale event. Sorry

[stavebuyer]

Buyer called after I sent him a text today and I told him what I thought about the situation and I'm not cashing the check till it gets sorted out. He seemed concerned. First we went over the board footage. I said many people that do this everyday seen the load and didn't think it was 3,500 what you told me. He says he said 3,750. We went into pricing and he tried to tell me to compare to some sawmills and I said that's not accurate that's why I went with you guys and not a sawmill for the quality and size of logs. And I should compare to a few other buyers with bids to see where you were at and I should have. I told him D in Iowa said he averaged 4.50 across the board on walnut and he didn't have veneer logs in that. Buyer claimed that wasn't true. I said I trusted you and I never contacted the other guys for bids and I should have. I question only five veneer logs. He claims I'm getting the same pricing as everyone in Iowa on everything but I'm paying more for trucking five hours away. Another thing I asked about that D in Iowa told me about how this buyer does it. Do I get deducted when you mark the logs at the lengths you want and then I cut. As opposed to having them at the various lengths and he said no. Thanks for the insight Stavebuyer.  I definitely learned the hard way and will be prepared next time for sure.

One thing I would like to know? Is it common with all buyers that just tell you price and give you a check without a tally sheet of what everything is and total board footage. I'm left with nothing and they tag every log and know everything about each log.

Southside the guy was reading the scale on the back of the trailer

Yes, a detailed scale ticket is standard. I would think the time to refuse the offer was before the truck left with the logs. Should you somehow recover the logs from IL and settle the trucking costs incurred I would be wondering in a business where the number of serious players can be counted on your fingers... who you think is going to come look at the logs? If I were the buyers worst enemy and biggest competitor there wouldn't be snowballs chance I'd be interested in logs the seller personally loaded on a buyers truck with a check in his pocket and later backed out.

If the driver was reading his airbags on a flatbed with heavy steel bolsters; you didn't have more than 3800ft with zero cutbacks. IL doesn't play with trucks. At all.
Don't get me wrong. I don't know what you were paid. What I do know is the logs were worth a lot more last month. Did a buyer shoot a below average bid to a newcomer in the off season? Wouldn't be surprised in the least.
You don't have the scale ticket. How are you going to get "your" logs back if the guy decides to keep the veneer and throw a few culls in to make up for his time and expense in this misadventure? The logs were cut at the wrong time and then sold in mixed lot with one offer. The buyer didn't sneak in and cut your trees. You called him and loaded his truck. 

This whole saga is an epic example of how not to sell timber. 
 

[Southside]

First I would reach out and ask for a copy of the scale ticket.  Did you stick scale the logs for gross footage as a starting point to compare total fiber volume? 

With the weight of the truck, and from the photo 69K gross sounds very reasonable.  I would not expect a load like that looks like going down the road to be getting extra DOT attention.  Slam her full to the top of the bolsters, no gaps between the ends of the logs, and you are asking for the portable scales to come out.  

What does 1,000 BF of green, wet, Walnut log weigh as an average?  I don't mean a Google search average, I mean from someone on here who knows.  I don't saw enough Walnut to know. Around here that truck and trailer would net about 30K with fuel and the driver, so that leaves us about 39K worth of logs on there.  What maximum, realistic, volume of fiber would that be? 

[OH logger]

We run battle wagons with 5' tall stakes. 3500' walnut is a VERY common load for us cause we haul walnut a ways so it needs to be legal. 
That trailer in the pics looks to be just as heavy as ours. I'd say 3750' is fair