I have a great performing small Stihl Chainsaw with about a 12" or 14" bar. Always a great performer for smaller tasks. Not sure why but after a resharpening by hand the saw cuts very sharply to the left. I have a larger Stihl (027) I have hand sharpened for years with good results but the little saw cuts to the left after I sharpen it. So, what am I doing wrong?
What do you think of the electric chain sharpeners (Harbour freight? or others??)
I've got a little MS210 as well as an 039 and 460. I put the bar in a vise (or stump vise in the field), set the chain break and sharpen away.
I have good luck with the big saws too, but not so good with the little guy. I've always assumed that being a cheaper saw and bar, that the movement of the chain while sharpening was causing the problems.
I sharpen them up to 10 times with the file and then take the chain to a local guy that trues them up on his grinder to get the angle perfect and the length of cutters all the same. I also have him set all the depths at the same time.
Possibly you are filing better, or at least at a better angle, with one hand than the other. Most people's right hand is stronger and more accurate than their left.
So you get a better edge on one side than the other.
Go back and examine the cutters with a magnifying glass and see if you can see a difference in the cutting edge, and try and correct that.
Also, check the bar isn't getting worn unevenly. If you take it off the saw and stand it on edge it should balance upright. If it keeps falling over, the rails have worn unevenly and the bar needs to be "dressed" (Ground down even again)
Ian
You will overcome that,keep at it. I hand file and I know it sound odd,but I always take an extra swipe when the motor is on the right side. I guess I can get at the chain better when the motor is on the left out of the way. It keeps that chain nice and sharp and saw straight. I must be doing something right.
Sounds like a worn bar, check how sloppy is the chain in the bar groove, try flipping the bar over see if that's better, is the bar old? How many miles on it? Is it flared out on the edges?
Take a close look you'll see your left hand cutters are sharp and the right hand cutters are dull.
Quote from: Ianab on March 16, 2012, 03:16:59 AM
Possibly you are filing better, or at least at a better angle, with one hand than the other. Most people's right hand is stronger and more accurate than their left.
So you get a better edge on one side than the other.
Go back and examine the cutters with a magnifying glass and see if you can see a difference in the cutting edge, and try and correct that.
Also, check the bar isn't getting worn unevenly. If you take it off the saw and stand it on edge it should balance upright. If it keeps falling over, the rails have worn unevenly and the bar needs to be "dressed" (Ground down even again)
Ian[/quote
That's about it.
And what my Chesterville neighbor said: "it comes with practice"
I rotate the bar after every sharpening, run a file over the tops and sides of the bar, and check the rakers. The PFERD filing tool ( 8) )does the rakers with each pass of the round file; handy thing for the field and hand sharpening.
When I "rock" the chain--kissing rounds, barbed wire, the ground, or rock :'(--the tooth needs filing back to solid steel. Measured so that all the other teeth will be filed to the same length. Carry an extra sharpened chain or 2 to save time, though a stump vise is handy .
Lean over your saw, look at the cutters, if you see a shinny edge on the cutters its dull.
You have to file on till the shinny edge is gone, give it a try. just keep on filing you''l learn. you have to know what to look for.
Ian nailed it we tend to file one way better than the outher.I put the saw in a vice sharpen one side then turn it around.Measure the legnth of the cutters and even them out. Frank C.
Quote from: opticsguy on March 16, 2012, 01:54:06 AM
Not sure why but after a resharpening by hand the saw cuts very sharply to the left. So, what am I doing wrong?
Quote
Cutting to the left means your right hand cutters are overcutting or are sharper then the lefts, which is odd because most hand filers can naturally file the left hand cutters easier then the rights.
Because I am left handed?
Actually I use the same hand for filing both sides, I just simply turn the saw around to sharpen the other side. Today I will take a serious look at my sharpening procedures and also the condition of the bar and all the recommendations on this list.
Thank you!!
Quote from: opticsguy on March 18, 2012, 11:00:40 AM
Because I am left handed?
Who would have known :D
Your 12-14' guide bar will be laminated which probably has a fair amount of hours on it and the rails are spread, causing lots of slop in the chain while cutting. If one side of cutters are sharpened differently like too much hook in the side plate for example the chain will cut in a curve due to the spread bar rails, especially bad when the cutters are filed back small.
Laminated bars are throw away when the rails spread lots because they can't be sucessfully retightened.
Not knowing exactly how you're sharpening, I suspect either free-hand or simple file-holder. Some say they can get good results that way; there's room for doubt.
I've found, long back, that the Granberg guide that clamps on the bar works best for me: couple strokes makes cutters into razors again, removes minimal metal, very consistent. Never had use for grinder. Can do precision setting of depth gauges. Relatively speaking, other guides, and grinders are way sub-optimum IMHO, because of poor results, complexity, cost, excessive metal removal.
Pretty easy with a finger-tip to tell is a cutter is properly sharp. Seems to me that uneven sharpening has led to uneven bar wear. It's easy to check with machinist's square, and easy to true up with a bench-grinder. Just set the rest so the bar is precisely radial to the wheel, and take light passes where one side stands proud. Some slight grinder-marks help retain oil.
Good luck.
This morning, went out and went did maintenance on my "bigger" saw an 026.
Found the bar to be in poor shape with fairly deep grooves and flared edges on the bar. Set up and ground all that away and then hand filed away any left over burrs. The balde is exactly perpendicular to the abrasive wheel, then reinstalled and filed the chain, both side consistently and carefully.
Had a 28" diameter tree to cut this morning and went out there proud of my sharp saw. Well, I could probably cut the tree down faster with a dull butter knife.
I am getting fine dust, not shavings and the saw seems to bog down easily after about 2" inside the tree. The same saw and bad and blade on a 6" diameter tree cuts like butter. So, I am "stumped". what to do?
With sharp cutters making dust your rakers are too high. Steve
It shouldn't be throwing sawdust even with high rakers if the chain is sharp. I would recommend to put a new chain on so you know where your at with it.
Maybe your file is worn out, filing with a dull file is like sawing with a dull saw.
Quote from: lumberjack48 on March 19, 2012, 09:53:00 PM
It shouldn't be throwing sawdust even with high rakers if the chain is sharp. I would recommend to put a new chain on so you know where your at with it.
That's it. Life is too short to cut with a @#%& chain. 8)
Update, this sawing stuff is spare time only. Went back and filed the rakers, WOW, now I am getting big chips!!! Great advice. Problem now it cuts very fast to the right. My other saw cuts to the left!!! I am getting dizzy.
So i will follow the recommendation and pick up a Granberg filing guide. Also a new chain after this.
I am very inspired by the chainsaw guy in the milling forum who quartered a big oak tree by chain saw, take a look at those cuts!!
Inspirational!!
Thanks for all the help!!
all cutters the same length, cutters filed the same on both sides, all rakers the same hight, bar rail good, lip filed off bar, and holding the saw straight, if all this is done right, it will cut straight,
The dilemma continues . . .
Picked up a saw guide and refiled all the cutters, used the raker gauge to check the rakers. Had removed the bar and removed all the burrs, channels, gouges, and UFO's. The running surface is square to the bar sides and every thing looks great. Not sure what else I could do.
So started up the saw and started a cut which immediately went right, would probably cut an 18" circle, that is really a tight turn. Never seen a saw do this before.
So, tomorrow, out for a new chain and will also have the local service people take a look at the whole saw.
When I kinda taught myself to shapen I just kept at it. Kept sawing on the same poor log. But I finally caught on to want I was doing wrong. Took about 5-6 chains too over a month.
opticsguy take that chain that pulling to the right and file the left hand cutters only.
I will give that a try, which ones are the left handed cutters?
I would assume the cutting teeth attached on the left side of the chain when viewed from the operators position?
Yes, from over the back of the saw, look straight down at the cutters, if you see a shinny edge on the cutter, its dull. You have to file on till its gone, each stroke of the file you'll see it disappear. Now make sure you don't rock the file when filing, long straight slow strokes, following the angle marked on the cutter. Take your time, watch what your doing, don't get frustrated, you can master that chain.
Too far for me to come help you. Something so easy can be so hard too. When you get it,you will be so happy. I know I was. About time I said. Probably not in your case,but at the High school Voc Center there was a guy that put on classes on how to sharpen a saw. I know of a couple guys that took it. Helped them alot.
I think your bar is probably shot. I look at saw's from many homeowners that i work for becuase they cut crooked. Most have unevenly warn out bars. Once they really wear uneven it's extremely difficult to get them back. Usually this happens from repeatedly trying to force a dull saw through a log. The chain gets hot and dry and wears away the bar unevenly becuase of hooking the bumper spikes in for leverage you apply uneven pressure.We always carry extra chain. If one gets dull throw on another. Sharpen them back at the shop on a vise like mentioned before.
Opticsguy,mayby you should just get one of those Origon chain grinders,if used with care will give you a sharp chain. Frank C.
Problem solved, yes, my bar was worn out.
A new bar and chain and I am now one very happy camper!!! Or saywer . . . .
Thanks everyone.
Prospecting back thru old posts, what gold you can find. Had the same issues and questions the OP wrote about. Thought Id give this thread a bump so some of them visitors dont need to learn the hard way like I did.
Now Im learning to recognize dull chains, high rakers, and uneven rails earlier so its a quick adjustment rather than time and cash for a repair.
One further question is how do you know a file is dull? Is it like knowing your chain is dull?
That's about right. Dull is dull. You can tell by how it feels against the tooth when you file. It also sounds different. You can tell the feel of a sharp file with your hand when you pick it up. My suggestion would be to buy a new file and compare it to an old file. Then you'd know. Treat your file like an edge tool and don't just through it in with a bunch of hard stuff. (Sometimes we all do that I guess, but it doesn't help the file.) Ideally you shouldn't have several files snuggling up to each other in you tool box either.
A new file feels "gritty" when you sharpen a tooth, and leaves a nice bit of dust on the file. You can feel it bite as you sharpen the tooth. A dull file slips over the tooth, and doesn't bite in. You *can* file with a dull file, but it's a strain, and your form goes bad. If you have to apply significant pressure, your file's probably too dull.
I second getting a new file(s) to compare. You can forget what it's supposed to feel like after awhile, and it slowly gets harder without you realizing it. I also suspect most of us are cheap, so it's tempting to use a file longer than is sensible. Don't consider a file as you would a nice wrench. Think of it more like gasoline. It's expendable, and when it's done, it's done. Just another operating cost of running a saw. Don't fight with old files.
A dull file,when it does not file. :D I buy my files by the box,12 at a time. When they don't grab,out they go. I don't want the file to feel like a piece of cold rolled steel when I am filing. ;D I have a big saw and a small saw,so I have 2 sizes, 2 boxes of files. I have no idea how long a box last,6 months, a year? I think closer to a year.
I feel a sharp file helps me filing.
I read a thread about cleaning files. I tried that and it did help. After a while though a new file is in order!
Cleaning is good, but it doesn't change dull. Use a file carder. A rotary brass bristled brush will do a good job of cleaning as well, but you end up with the dullest file ever known to mankind. (Don't ask me how I know. ;))
I have soaked files in white vinegar for 24 hours and it makes them sharper. Similar to the old trick of putting a file in sulphuric acid to sharpen it, but without the possibility of permanent disfigurement. I can't really say how sharp the result was compared to a new file, but it's worthwhile. The vinegar is a good way to remove rust. No matter how you go about it, a dull file is not a good thing.
I used white vinegar to clean as well. It did help. As you may already be aware don't drag the file back as it dull the file as well.
If you can find the right size straw, they make a good file protector. And the hunt for the straw can be a adventure also
Quote from: Logger RK on July 29, 2018, 07:58:34 AM
If you can find the right size straw, they make a good file protector. And the hunt for the straw can be a adventure also
Stock up now: there is a big "anti-plastic-straw" movement going on in the US now.
We are also starting here with this movement and i support it. straws are absolutely unnecessary unless you eat in your car.
lots of straws end up in our oceans and the turtles (which Costa Rica is proud of protecting and they do a great job) chocks on them and can die from it.
Quote from: teakwood on July 29, 2018, 11:47:02 AM
We are also starting here with this movement and i support it. straws are absolutely unnecessary unless you eat in your car.
lots of straws end up in our oceans and the turtles (which Costa Rica is proud of protecting and they do a great job) chocks on them and can die from it.
I also strongly support it. I tell restaurants not to bring them to the table. I do have what is probably a lifetime supply of round file protectors now, since my wife bought a 50-pack of straws for one of my kids birthday party a few years ago.
Not trying to be flippant or anything, but managing one's own litter, straws or whatever, would solve the problem. I can't even imagine a situation where I would just toss litter on the ground, but I know that's just me. It seems difficult to effectively legislate bad behavior out of existence. Turtles shouldn't have to live in fear of straws. There is a lot of data out there on sources of ocean litter. It's instructive to look at the data.
I'm not a big straw user, but I do plan to start using some on round files. I should also improve my handling of flat files, but they won't fit in straws. I really just need to break some bad habits with my file storage.
Yep, fall in that don't use a straw group. My daughter works at Zoo Miami and reminds me of certain things when I am around her, straws are one.
Straws are pretty low on the trash harm scale, but they're also low hanging fruit. Straws are a frivolous affectation for the most part, and they simply aren't needed. Easy to get rid of. Work on the rest later.
One thing is in countrys where trash gets recycled or burnt or correctly deposited. But here in a developing nation where the mind of half people isn't concerned about trash recycling and lots of trash gets trow in the streets and backyards where the rainwater carries it to the creek, rivers and finally the ocean it's another story
All the above tips. When I get a new bar and chain, look carefully at both. Most chains have "witness marks" for the sharpening angle that wear after sometime. The tip to rotate the bar, file it on both sides, and check the grooves is right on. Files wear out and are cheap insurance for a good edge.
Also, both Stihl and Husky sell a Pferd hand sharpening rig ( "2 in 1" or other names) that does the edge AND raker in each pass. You get the Pferd for each sized chain.
It takes time and T & E.
....and, this straw thing is like a straw dog. :laugh:Too many more critical environmental crises to worry about
Study a new chain carefully and try to copy it when you file. Filing by eye is not perfect but if the angles average out l/h to r/h it will go but if one side is more aggressive , that's the way it will cut. The bar rails must be equal height and can be filed or ground flat. Most any wood saw in top condition will try to self feed and cut straight,
Gosh!! I remember posting this originally way back in 2012. Now 6 years ago and now converted to a straw thread??
What has happened in those 6 years?
- My sharpening skills and maintenance is at a much higher level.
- Purchased a Stihl MS 250 to replace my home-owner light weight saw.
- Traveled to Peru where I found the entire country covered in plastic, the deserts, the beaches and more. only the tourist areas were cleaned up. And i mean plastic EVERYWHERE.
- This last week, purchased a Milwaukee cordless chainsaw. will comment more about this when I get time on the new saw.
- Life is very good!!
When I first started working in the woods I couldn't file a saw to save my life. This made my job absolutely miserable since all I did was buck pine logs. I set it in my head one day that I wanted to learn how to file correctly and worked at it often, filing completely through a few chains even though I didn't cut with them. I found that the best way for me to learn was to take the chain off the bar and put just the chain in a bench vise, with the drivers clamped into the vise. I found that to be a much more stable working platform. From there I could use both hands and the chain did not move one bit. I learned that way and am now able to freehand file on a tailgate or even with a saw sitting on my lap, but I still always try to file my chains straight for the week in a vise on the weekends.
Does anyone else remember paper straws?
How about tearing one end off the wrapper & blowing in the end to see how far the wrapper goes?
Quote from: Logger RK on August 09, 2018, 08:04:42 AM
How about tearing one end off the wrapper & blowing in the end to see how far the wrapper goes?
Extra points if you can hit your sister in the face with the wrapper from across the table.
We did not use many straws growing up at home. I drank out of the small milk cartons at school.
Kinda like the plastic bags thing. They are so bad for environment. Well stop making the Dang things and go back to paper. ::) Problem solved.
Quote from: thecfarm on August 09, 2018, 08:24:03 AM
We did not use many straws growing up at home. I drank out of the small milk cartons at school.
Kinda like the plastic bags thing. They are so bad for environment. Well stop making the Dang things and go back to paper. ::) Problem solved.
Way too many people think cutting a tree for paper is evil. I would love to show some of them through my woods and tell them it was heavily logged 20 years ago.
You've gotten some good advice on this thread.....but let me tell you: you'll never get it 100% right every time. And little errors tend to snowball over time.
I use a electric sharpener and it's even worse.
All this is why God gave us new chains. ;D
Quote from: rasawing on August 09, 2018, 02:04:30 PM
You've gotten some good advice on this thread.....but let me tell you: you'll never get it 100% right every time. And little errors tend to snowball over time.
I use a electric sharpener and it's even worse.
All this is why God gave us new chains. ;D
We do get it right every time with all the good advice ....and long time sharpening on the chain(s).
Never will go back to any electric grinder ( not a "sharpener" ). It can screw up by burning a chain or getting the angles wrong. Besides the setup takes too long for most of us with a stable of saws and different chains.
Here goes: it's easy peazy to get it right every time hand sharpening in the shop OR in the field. No charge for this.
Get a new bar AND chain. Along with that get a Pferd 2in1 system ( both Stihl and Husky use the Pferd under their name ).
Now, look carefully at the top of that shiny new chain for the "witness mark" that is the correct angle to hold the 2in1 rig.
Mount the bar and chain in your vise or a stump vise in the field. Now count the filings on each side of the chain.
Right every time. The bill is in the mail.
To me the hand sharpening just takes too long. (Especially if the teeth are really out of wack from hitting the dirt.) I'm never that far from my bench and a Dremel grinder so it's not that big of a deal for me.
Pferd makes the Chain Sharp CS-X (http://www.pferdusa.com/products/201b/201b01/201b010503P.html), which is also rebadged and sold by Stihl as the 2-in-1 Filing Guide (https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/filing-tools/2in1file/). I do not see anything similar from Husqvarna.
Pferd's older system, the Chain Sharp (http://www.pferdusa.com/products/201b/201b01/201b0106P.html) (without the "CS-X") is sold by Husqvarna as the Sharp Force File Guide (https://www.husqvarna.com/us/accessories/chainsaw-sharpeners-filing-equipment/sharp-force-file-guide/653000036/). This was a decent guide in it's day, but is not as quick and easy to use as the CS-X / 2-in-1 system. If I recall correctly, the Sharp Force / Chain Sharp requires flipping the files around when switching from the left-handed to the right handed cutters. This is not necessary with the CS-X / 2-in-1 system.
Right. We use the older Pferd system that the files have to be reversed for each side. It still works well and fast.
Since I don't have an heiress with me, we'll have to stick with the old but worthy system. The newer CS-X is better and more $$$$.
Having used electric grinders I Stihl prefer the Pferd for accuracy and ease. When the chain hits dirt, embedded rounds, or barbed wire in trunks (a PITA), it takes many more passes BY HAND to get it right. Then again, much of the time the cutting is in the field away from power or the workbench.
Furthermore, the Pferd hand sharpening is relaxing, allowing needed down time often with a side brew.
This is "hand sharpening" version 10 with the CS-X system. Never a long job since it does both the edge AND raker with each pass. Try it.
JohnMc may have convinced me to to get the new and improved. Send me the check ?
P.S. rasawing needs a stump vise.
Straws' banning for real ????
I always use this little angle plate, it's excellent for freehandfiling. It has magnets so you put it on the bar and overlook the file and it's easy to get the angle right.
Schärfgitter - (http://www.stihl.at/STIHL-Produkte/Motors%C3%A4gen/Schneidgarnituren-und-Zubeh%C3%B6r/Werkzeug-f%C3%BCr-die-MS-Garniturpflege/21595-35812/Sch%C3%A4rfgitter.aspx)
Now i also use a 2in1 and they are awesome!
Quote from: teakwood on August 10, 2018, 08:20:55 AM
I always use this little angle plate, it's excellent for freehandfiling. It has magnets so you put it on the bar and overlook the file and it's easy to get the angle right.
Schärfgitter - (http://www.stihl.at/STIHL-Produkte/Motors%C3%A4gen/Schneidgarnituren-und-Zubeh%C3%B6r/Werkzeug-f%C3%BCr-die-MS-Garniturpflege/21595-35812/Sch%C3%A4rfgitter.aspx)
Now i also use a 2in1 and they are awesome!
I thought I had seen just about every sharpening gadget known to man, but I've never seen one of those.
I just use the angle lines scribed on my file guide (which unfortunately don't show up very well in this picture):
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16836/2596/Oregon_File_holder.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1296921549)
Quote from: Pulphook on August 09, 2018, 08:05:03 PMFurthermore, the Pferd hand sharpening is relaxing, allowing needed down time often with a side brew.
I find the same thing. Stopping to sharpen also gives me an opportunity to assess how I'm holding up. Something I don't always take the time to do in the middle of working. I find I don't keep myself properly hydrated and often don't realize how tired I'm getting if I don't have some excuse to stop and "take stock". I do take a pass on the brew until I'm done using the chainsaw, however.
QuoteJohnMc may have convinced me to to get the new and improved. Send me the check ?
That's funny, since don't use the CS-X/2-in-1 myself (though I have used my friend's on several occasions). I use the clip on file guide pictured in my earlier post, or sometimes a roller guide (not my photo):
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16836/Roller_file_guide.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1462971605)
Actually, the one I posted earlier with the plate that clips on to the file is what I use most often.
I also prefer to use the depth gauge tool on the roller guide or like one of these:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16836/Husky_Depth_Gauge_tool~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1533908363)
It lets me customize the depth gauge to the associated tooth, making relatively unimportant to keep all the teeth the same length.
I'm not saying my way works any better than any others. It's just what I'm used to, and I get good results with it. It's sort of become my sharpening ritual. I'll never be one of those guys who gets amazing results with just a bare file used freehand. (On the other hand, I also won't be one of those many folks I've met who just
think they get great results freehand.)
When it pulls into the wood all by itself,I know I have done good. :)
Gone through so many of the chain sharpening tool rigs including grinders.
The Pferd (Stihl or Husky ) system is foolproof and brainproof which many of us need. :-[
It does the raker along with the edge enough to do what CF says: " ...the chain pulls itself ....".
I use the right size for the 3 kinds of chains and saws. It is fast.
When I get tired of reversing the files on the older model Pferds, the new and better CS-Xs will be bought.....not yet.
John, the brew is only when done cutting not sharpening......I swear.
Quote from: John Mc on August 10, 2018, 08:48:50 AMI thought I had seen just about every sharpening gadget known to man, but I've never seen one of those.
When i first started to sharp a chain a forester who teached me gave me one of those plastic plates and it has been with me in every filling since 20years now. For free hand filling i find it the most simple and useful tool ever. and it costs like 10$
With the 2 in 1 i don't need to use it anymore.
I will try to find if that is available in America for you guys.
I've tried file guides, depth gauges, logger buddies saws sharpened with grinders, and in the end, I found it much simpler and easier to just use plain old files with handles. Take a brand new chain, put saw and all in a vice, 2 or 3 strokes on each cutter to freshen it up, 2 or 3 strokes on the rakers with a raker file, and if you use the saw enough, you know how it cuts, and how much to take off the rakers each time. Seems more precise to me than grinders too. As long as you don't let it go too far, and keep a sharp chain always, it's good.
Here some links on the part
Stihl Chain File Angle Plate 0000 750 9900 Chainsaw Filing Magnetic Clamp 25/30° | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stihl-Chain-File-Angle-Plate-0000-750-9900-Chainsaw-Filing-Magnetic-Clamp-25-30-/381190527505)
This one is really cheap!! I payed 11$ in Switzerland!
Stihl Saw Chain File Angle Plate | Tools Today (http://www.toolstoday.co.uk/stihl-saw-chain-file-angle-plate)