iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Climax Forests - Beech-Maple

Started by Backwoods, December 17, 2015, 05:03:11 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Backwoods

I have had, for some time, an interest in planting an intentional, permanent forest. I have about 6 acres of land that is just kind of overgrown, and has not been managed at all. I bought the land 18 months ago, but before that it appears to have been sitting useless for at least 30 years. Before that it was ploughed and farmed. Right now it is full of Ash trees that are dying from the borer, a few poplars that are rising to the sky, and lots of Japanese honeysuckle and mile-a-minute weed that are running rampant and killing everything else.

I am thinking about cutting all of this down, ploughing it, and planting a Beech-Maple forest over it starting with seeds and some seedlings. Yes, it is a big project, but I want to make something with the land that will last a VERY long time, and provide habitat for wildlife. Six acres is both big, for my purposes, but small for a forest, and small enough that I should be able to handle it myself.

Beech and Sugar Maple are known to live for hundreds of years, produce lots of shade, and are shade tolerant as saplings. This enables them to grow in the understory and eventually make it to the top, at which point they begin blocking out the sun below them, and only Beech and Maples tend to be both shade tolerant enough and long-lived enough to survive into maturity under a canopy of Beech and Maple. Other trees either can't handle the shade, live and die within in the lifecycle of a single Beech or Maple, or fail to produce the shade necessary to block other competitors.

In the understory there are plenty of shrubs and bushes that like the shade, but the two trees have a tendency to prevent other tall trees from growing up. Because of this, climax forests can go on growing and self-reproducing for centuries with very little change. They can outgrow Oak-Hickory forests simply by shading them out and Poplars and Walnuts by outliving them. Beech Maple climax forests don't tend to sprawl and grow outwards very quickly (but of course they can over time).

Both Beeches and Sugar maples grow naturally in my area, and my soil and climate are right in the sweet spot for these trees. In addition, both are very useful as firewood, beech nuts are eaten by virtually all wildlife in my region, and sugar maple trees are great for syrup (a very long time from now of course). Both are beautiful in the fall and Beeches are even beautiful in winter.

I am thinking about using European Beech instead of American because European Beech is not susceptible to the diseases that Americans get.

My reasons for considering this (haven't begun work yet, but if I had to decide right now, I would do it) are because I think these ancient forests are interesting, (and also shrinking and being encroached upon) because I want to do something that will still be maturing when my great-grandkids die, because both these trees are probably my favorite forest trees already, and because I can. (I think I can anyway)

Just posting this here to inform and to initiate discussion if anyone has questions about climax forests, insight, guidance, advice, or anything else.

beenthere

To start, click your forum name and you will go where you can update your profile with at least a location. Very helpful to know for better understanding of your proposal.
And am sure if you read other posts, it is very helpful to have an idea from where the posters' is located. ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ianab

While our forests are different, one thing I have learnt is that many of those shade tolerant climax forest trees don't do well as "first colonisers". Plant them bare field and the sun / wind / frost etc knocks most of them out, and the weeds take over again.

One way around this is a "nurse crop". This means some fast growing short lived tree or bush that you can get established quickly, suppresses the weeds, and gives shade and shelter for your permanent seedlings. So you get your Tree Lucerne or Manuka established, then you come back and make little sheltered clearings where you plant your seedlings so they grow up through the canopy. The nurse crop tends to start dying back after 10-20 years, and by that time your real forest trees are starting to over top it anyway.

But it saves you about 100 years of forest succession, and allows you to at least get that type of forest established within your lifetime anyway. Wont be mature, but it will be a forest.

There are likely books available that have info on regenerating forest in your local area, as the specifics in my books won't apply (just the general ideas). And hence Beenthere's question about where you are. My books are on regenerating NZ native forest, and outlines various methods, from "Do nothing and wait 100 years", though to the more intensive nurse crops and seedling transplanting which jump starts a new forest with species that might only appear in the 2nd or 3rd succession stages.

The local climax forest is generally Rimu and Tawa, which are very slow growing shade tolerant trees. But you might be ~100 years down the track before a naturally regrowing forest sees them. Then another ~400 before they mature.... But with a bit of clever management, you can get a respectable Rimu (~50') in maybe 50 years.

Good luck with your forest plan, whatever you decide to do with it.  :)
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

SwampDonkey

Deer and moose, snowshoe hare and mice can put a wrench into the mechanics of it to.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

woodmills1

Just saying if you clear it plant food.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

CCC4

Why not use what you already have, clean up the dead standing and plant species that will prevail up through the existing canopy. I don't understand why you would want to start all over. If here, I would go in, bushog the honeysuckle and if remotely near water I would plant Paw Paws with oak under them. Paw Paws would shoot up and block the understory while the Oaks would strive for light and shoot through the canopy tall, slick and straight. Or for that matter you could plant your Beech and your Maples or whatever with the same results. But why start all over?

grassfed

Don't plow you will release a whole bunch of dormant seeds and damage the soil structure.

Climax Forests are the result of succession they are not necessarily perpetual. It all depends on the types of disturbances that occur. In the North East, for instance, there are: major hurricanes that flatten vast swaths of forests every 100 years or so, ice storms, insect blooms....

The  thing to learn about being a land steward is to understand the natural processes that are occurring on the land and then patiently nudge and guide them in a direction that you think is best.

If you want shade tolerant trees then it is best to keep as many canopy trees that you can and wait until your understory trees have achieved poll stage and then release them slowly.

If you clear cut you will be fighting pioneer/shade intolerant species because you have given them a huge advantage!!!

You have to let go of the notion that you can control all of the processes.   Nature is always in charge.
Mike

Ianab

QuoteYou have to let go of the notion that you can control all of the processes.   Nature is always in charge.

You can influence things, but you have to work WITH nature. Understand how things would naturally progress, and then you can help them along. But it's not always obvious, like CCC4 says, if he wanted Oaks, he would first plant Pawpaws, as a "nurse" crop.

QuoteDeer and moose, snowshoe hare and mice can put a wrench into the mechanics of it to.  ;D

True. The book has a whole chapter on pest control.  ;)  Luckily in NZ, if it's got fur, and it's not a bat or a seal, then it's an introduced pest, and it's open season. Australian possums are the biggest problem, they eat anything and have no predators in NZ.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Clark

I'd admire your willingness to give it a go and make some unused land more productive by putting trees back on it.

When establishing hardwoods I would strongly recommend direct seeding. There is a lot of information about it but in short you get a fully stocked forest quick and it will be so thick that the various pests won't put a hamper on your efforts.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

SwampDonkey

Need a good seed bed and they gotta be thick. Planting a maple or beech 6-10 feet apart will be eaten up within a week where I'm from. I planted yellow birch nursery seedlings (12-15" tall) on a forest site that was prepared for planting. I collected the seed from the local area. Within a couple days the moose and rabbits found them. And this wasn't cleared field.  ;D At the house where the moose and rabbits aren't so thick, and the grass was non existent, on an old orchard site, I had success. In the grass the mice ate them all in the winter (bark girdle). Tree protectors would have solved that. If you want seed, yellow birch is easiest, just pick the catkins in fall. They are full of seed like confetti, and you have a long lived, species, semi-shade tolerant. They don't grow fast like white birch. Beautiful golden bark.



The date stamp isn't right, I think this was around 2007. In 2012 I thinned it out and now there is a fairly clean understory as they cast enough shade under them to hold out the weeds. I actually have some wild flowers there in spring. twisted stalk, trillium, trout lily that actually started when there was old apple trees there. That's the benefits of wildlife to, especially birds.

Planted red oak seed on a garden bed, probably several thousand. They germinated thick and the mice ate most over the next few winters, but they became more or less spaced on the site as a result. I've got to move some or thin some.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

enigmaT120

Climax forests where I live are very different -- Douglas-fir/hemlock/some cedar, and very big.  I'd like to see a hardwood mature forest some time.  Are there good examples, say in national parks or wilderness areas?

It's funny, whenever people talk about touring Europe, I don't think about the cathedrals and ruins, but about visiting the Black Forest!

Ed Miller
Falls City, Or

SwampDonkey

They are very fragmented and practically non existent here. You have mostly old hemlock, white cedar, white pine, sugar maple left behind during the last harvest or two. Most of the hemlock and cedar blow down where they get hard winds. Most of poor form and low value. Otherwise you have a large diameter 200+ year old tree scattered among pole sized or an average 8"-9" younger trees in these parts. You drive bye and ask why are the trees so small? It's all been cut and hacked if it's next to any forest road or pavement is why. One government here made a 100 foot rule to leave along the paved roads. Most ridiculous idea ever, just something to blow down, and no one was fooled by the them trying to conceal big clear cuts behind it. LOL
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

chester_tree _farmah

It isn't climax but there is a very cool spot owned by Bowdoin college in Maine where big old White Pine tower over big old Eastern Hemlock growing in the understory. Known as the Bowdion Pines. It isn't a very big lot - about 33 acres - but to me it is very impressive. I can imagine that must be what it looked like in much of Maine before loggers arrived.

http://www.ents-bbs.org/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=4479
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

g_man

That looks like a neat place to see _farmah. Next time we are down Portland way I think the short trip up to Brunswick would be nice. Thanks for posting that.

gg

thecfarm

Seen that stand of pine many times driving through Brunswick.
I had some big tall pine here. Now I wished I would of taken pictures of them.  :( I still have some left,but most of the big,old ones are gone.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

SineWave

Around here, it seems like maples are one of the first colonizers, and beeches are the last ... with a lot of birches, pines, gums, hollies, oaks, hickories and decades in-between. The beeches don't usually show up until the oaks start dying off from old age. Not sure I've ever seen a stand of mixed beech and maple, not that that means anything...

Good luck in whatever you decide. I'm currently trying to plant a lot of trees on some land I purchased this fall, as well. So far I've planted 100 Thuja green giants and 100 Murray cypress as a visual and sound "screen" and I've got some walnuts, pecans, paw paws and catalpas "in the oven."

:new_year:


SwampDonkey

Beech-hard maple-yellow birch-white ash is pretty much climax for hardwood up here. The beech has suffered tremendously so it is not a majestic tree any longer, and we had huge die-offs of birch decades ago. So mostly our old hardwood forest is mostly hard maple with a scattering of yellow birch and white ash. But also red spruce, hemock, and white pine and white cedar (along gullies and damp areas). I've seen sugar maple grow on some pretty damp rocky ground sometimes. The water move through quickly like on a side hill with seepages and lots of ferns. Some times a site will be dominated by yellow birch, but not as common as hard maple being the dominant tree.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

CJ5

I like the idea, but I am not sure it can be forced. Good luck. I have a large portion of secondary succession forest on my property with 80ft beech trees and little undergrowth. I do not have maples, i guess due to climate. It is a beautiful part of my forest.

Brleclaire

What soil type is your acreage? I read in your post that sugar maple and beech grow in your area but if your land is low ground which generally supports ash and aspens your maples and beeches. might not do very well. If it well drained soil then your desired trees will do well. Just another thing to look at in your land management. Best of luck

hanstedtwr

We recently cut an area for a customer about 2 years ago, Small area at that (about 150x150 feet) in a beach and maple forest like you are talking about. I walked it this fall with the customer again and there area we cut looks like grass. Maple trees were the primary re sprout. It will take time for them to be worthy for Maple syrup. We left a few maples and Hemlocks stand and it seems to be taking its course. If it was me i would just let nature take its course and leave it alone. If you want to thin i would take Beach and Maple 8-10 inches and bigger.
PM me if you want more info or help on this.
550 Cat Harvester with fabtek 180 dangle head, 2006 John Deere 1010D, Conehead 585 Chipper, Cancar C 4 cable skidder, Dyna sc 14 firewood processor and many other toys

CCC4

It seems that on a lot of these odd posts where forum members give info and input, that we never hear back from the OP. I don't really understand why.

SwampDonkey

Maybe they didn't get the answer they wanted.  :D

However, I don't know why one would take their seed trees out if they want to regenerate after a thinning. Usually one thins across all diameters for long lived species that often are uneven aged. Although with cutting practices over the last 150 years they have often become even aged. I know most on private woodlots are that way up here and almost all on public land. For decades in this neck of the woods, hardwood, mainly maples, was firewood and pulp and treated as weeds on mill and public land being replaced as fast as could be with spruce. I know because I've thinned a few and also thinned a lot of failed conversions. Maple is awfully hard to stop proliferating on land that was maple dominant. Spray just slows it. I've seen maple and beech so thick that you pretty much stopped counting above 40 stems on a little plot 1.46 meters in radius. Used density for pay rate, well high rate was less than 40 stems, so why bother. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Thank You Sponsors!