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Thoughts On The War ?

Started by Bud Man, April 07, 2003, 04:53:50 AM

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HORSELOGGER

Jeff, there aint enough Christians in northern Iraq to organize apot luck, let alone try to move south and evangelize the cities of Iraq.   The Kurds make up a people group of around 800,000 people plus those in Iran and Turkey. They became refugees after the 91 gulf war, when we let them down after encouraging them to revolt against Hussein. Rough estimates show around 45000 Kurdish Christians, and they are not without persecution by their own people. as the dominant religion is muslim. The break down is: 96.85% muslim, 1.55%   Christian, 1.10 % other religions, .050% non- religious. ( stats and info from the 2001 edition , Operation World guide to world religions, by nations )

 I agree with Norm.... I thought the comment was totally uncalled for also.  

I find it quite interesting that a certain number of people in our country dont seem to want any good to come from this. Or maybe they dont want anything good to come from a decision made by President Bush. First it was hand-wringing that we did this without the "blessing" of the irrelevant U N. then itwas whining that the war wasnt over in 15 minutes, now its all a big sham to drum up busi=ness for the construction companies affiliated with conservative politicians. Some folks just cant deal with absolute truth , or absolute anything for that matter. This was absolutley a just thing for us to do, and if the terrorists want to make camp in  Syria, then I hope we dont stop............. ( probably stepped in it now..... oh well! )
Heritage Horselogging & Lumber Co.
"Surgical removal of standing timber, Leaving a Heritage of timber for tommorow. "

Jeff

I know I heard a news segment on a fear of one of the Iraqi Christian sects, or tribes, or whatever, possibly trying to move in to certain parts of Iraq an take over. I can't find reference to the story but its what I thought of when I read that. I am Christian and did not take offense to the comment.

I did find a source fro christian numbers, and its far greater then 70,000. Its 700,000. 700,000 Assyrian Christians.

Source:
http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/special_reports/iraq/bee/story/6442157p-7394117c.html

I think I found the discussion I reffered to. Here it is in part.

Stover, a professor at U.C. Berkeley's School of Public Health, documented massacres and war crimes in 1991, after Iraq took over Iraqi Kurdistan. Now he's back as an observer for the organization Human Rights Watch. Last week he interviewed young Kurdish men who were forced to serve in the Iraqi Army and have since deserted. They are now prisoners of war held by U.S. troops.

He talked with KRON 4 news by telephone from the town of Erbil in Northern Iraq.

"As we're hearing from them [the Kurdish prisoners], the Iraqi forces have an execution squad - the Fedayeen - which will execute anyone defecting from their ranks. And many, well at least four of those we interviewed so far, told of other defectors who had been caught, and who had been executed," he says.

Stover is concerned that other abuses of Kurds may be looming. In the 1980's, according to Human Rights Watch, Iraq bombed more than 20 Kurdish villages with chemical weapons. After the Gulf War as many as a million Iraqi Kurds fled to the mountains on the Iraq Turkey border. Now Kurds, fearing repeated attacks are fleeing cities like Erbil, and heading to the mountains with what they can carry. That, says Stover, is setting the stage for the possibility of another humanitarian crisis.

"We're not that far, perhaps only ten miles away from the front lines - if it moves closer into the city, people are going to flee again and the Kurdish authorities do not have tents, medical supplies, food, to take care of a large influx of refugees," he says.

There's another influx that worries Stover. One that might follow a U.S. Assault on Iraqi-controlled Kirkuk. He says 120,000 displaced Kurds and Assyrian Christians expelled by Saddam Hussein over the years are eager to return.

"The minute those forces, the U.S. Coalition forces move into the city, they may be followed by the people who have been displaced and Arabs have taken over their homes and we're very concerned it could get out of control and there could be heavy inter-ethnic violence and that this could really turn into the Achilles heel of the U.S. Coalition forces," he says.

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

I would like to follow that up by the fact that I support the actions we have taken, I support my president and the people he leads and I do beleive what we do, we must do.

Being Arm chair generals is a simple  way for some to deal with thier fears.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

HORSELOGGER

Jeff , He made a distinction... Kurds AND Assyrian Christians .  They are the same ethnicly, but not spiritualy.

" The Christian community is largely Assyrian with some armenians. The Assyrioans are descendants of the Nestorian or Ancient Church of the East; in two denominations since 1964. The Nestorian Church became one of the greatest missionary denominations of history, winning 6% of all of Asias population 1000 years ago.It is reduced to less than 2 million in the entire world today through persecution, compromise and harassment. About one third of Christians left Iraq in the 1990s and are a high proportion of the Iraqi refugee population."  ( Operation World )

The comment was uncalled for in the way it portrayed Christians moving into a new area to spread the Gospel as a cause of grief for the newly liberated people. A watered down gospel message that suits the pallet of un or anti Christian religions is really no gospel at all. Personally , I hope there is an increase in Christian evangelism in Iraq. The Christian heritage of this country forms the foundation by which we will feel compelled to stand up and do what we are doing in Iraq. Why is it that the most brutally oppresed peoples in this world live under Muslim, Hindu or Atheistic world views?
Heritage Horselogging & Lumber Co.
"Surgical removal of standing timber, Leaving a Heritage of timber for tommorow. "

Bud Man

I'm a Christian by birth and upbringing but have to confess I've not spent the time and energy to study and fully comprehend a lot of the conversation that has taken place within the past many posts.  What my thoughts and hopes are  that what ever happens after humanatarian services have been restored in Iraq is a slow methodical way with all tribes and religious segments of the Iraqi people included.  Everyone (except U.S.)seems to be in a hurry for everything to be resolved quickly and with out much regard for the imput from the Iraqi people. I would wish upon the Iraqi people something akin to the freedom of speech and religion etc. that we celebrate in the USA.  Lots and Lots of Patience is what is needed now instead of what will it cost and who's going to dictate what and to whom.  The Iraq people are reportley well educated and they are blessed with an abundance of resources ( Oil and Water).  The seeds that will be planted and the harvest's that are to be reaped in the future in my mind must be purposeful and must benefit everyone in Iraq.  In the interim I would hate the UN, French, Germans, or Russians to be allowed anything but trivial roles in the future of Iraqi people.  God only knows how many Iraqi lives of all of their various beliefs have been sold and brokered  for the Oil beneat their sand.  Coalition forces lost, according to media reports, are less than 150 but what has not been widely reported or emphasized is the 100,000 plus Iraq people that have lost their lives.   I for one don't believe that that many of those people were evil, and all of the fallen, Coalition and Iraqi are being grieved by their loved ones .  Unlike the looting and unlawless state that currently exist This War Action must not end in a mad scramble to see who can grab and control and influence the most.  The world is getting smaller and smaller by the minute and good examples are getting fewer and fewer, now is the time for someone to set an example of what path Civilization will take !  I am so very proud that America has finally stepped up to the plate and taken on the role of Leadership and in this case Liberator and not just talk.      Patience and Purposeful Planning !!
The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant

Norm

I guess I smacked the hornet's nest about Christians trying to impose their beliefs on the Iraqi's. The comment did not say where the Christians were from. If they are part of the Iraqi population then they have a right to be heard just as the Muslims do. Freedom of religion is one of man's basic rights.

If it was about Christian groups elsewhere than I stand by my statement that it was uncalled for.


OneWithWood

For the record the Christain group I was referring to is the Southern Baptist group that was the focus of a news segment on one of the network or cable broadcasts.  I have no problem with folks discussing their religious views with others.  I do have a problem with people pushing their views on others while they discount the beliefs of others.  My intent for mentioning the account was to point out that we must exercise patience in what we do and when we do it as a people, regardless of how just we feel that cause to be. Any American becomes an ambassador of our country and our way of life.  We should all stop and think about how our actions are interpreted and not act blindly.  I think Budman put it very well in his last post.
To those who wish to put their own spin on what I said earlier feel free.  You are doing exactly what I seem to be accused of doing.  I offer this in the spirit of intelligent conversation.  I condem no one for their views.  I am not, nor never was, opposed to removing Saddam and his regime.  I have said before and I will say it again - I am a citizen of the USA and I am very proud to be one.  I will fight to the death to defend this country and anyone's right to disagree with my views about it.  I only wish for folks to be objective about what is said and respond in the same manner.  There is no challenge imbedded here for anyone and no personal attack is intended.  In my lifetime I have been directly affected by numerous wars.  I come from a long line of military heritage dating back to the Revolutionary War.  Consequently my upbringing was a very conservative Christain one.  In fact before he converted to Catholicism my father was a devout Southern Baptist.  I, by choice, am neither.  My opinions are just that, my opinions.  I offer them as I said before in the spirit of conversing on the stated topic.  
I respect all of your opinions whether or not I agree with them. All I seek in return is respectful dialogue.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

L. Wakefield

   So, uh... where ARE the weapons of mass destruction, anyway?   lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Haytrader

Why do you suppose they buried those mobile labs?
Probably to keep them from being exposed to the sun.
NOT
Haytrader

Patty

Oh those nasty weapons of mass destruction...are they buried, are they on their way to Syria, are they in Russia? No matter where they are we will find them. Hopefully we will find them before they are used on us or anyone else ever again.
Some folks seem to forget, Suddam used them on his own people...what makes you think he or some other monster won't use them again. We and England are the only countries who have the cajones to stand up to these monsters (I refuse to give them the benefit of calling them men). I am so proud of our brave soldiers, I wish them Godspeed in this endeavor to stamp out Saddams evil regime. Too bad not all of us feel the gratitude our soldiers deserve...I guess they are just too busy finding fault with them. Very sad state of mind indeed.
Women are Angels.
And when someone breaks our wings....
We simply continue to fly ........
on a broomstick.....
We are flexible like that.

IndyIan

LW,
I just read through all the posts and noticed your question about the Globe and Mail.  I don't subscribe to it but it is a well respected business paper and in Canada that means pro-USA most of the time.  They do seem to know their stuff so I wouldn't doubt what they've written is true.  

Tom, your wrote

"We can "if and maybe" all we want about the way things will be in the future and it all boils down to 'someone else' will make the decision and it will probably be for economical reasons.  Isn't that the way it should be?"  

It's my belief this kind of thinking got Iraq and the US into this mess.  If the US government hadn't been so scared about people paying a little extra for gas they wouldn't have helped Saddam into power in the first place...  The US has been fooling around in the middle east for years because of oil and only oil, (well Israel too).  All the decisions on who to back from year to year or decade to decade have been based on economics and politics.  I guess that's how empires are made.  
 
Now maybe this time its different, I hope it is.  I bet though if the Iraqi people had a vote on how the oil revenues should be divided they would choose equally for all the people of Iraq.  I'm sure they will want a state run oil monopoly that pays its profits directly to the people.  The US and WTO could loan them the billions they need to get the oil fields set up again by an Iraqi state company at 10-15% interest and everybody would win.  Will this happen?  I doubt it, there isn't enough profit for Bush's and Blair's buddies, not enough control, state run monopolies don't fit in a capitalist system.  Remember, democracy is not dependent on economic systems.  

Patty,
It is a great accomplishment that US and UK soldiers have gotten rid of Saddam, no question about it.  Everyone should be proud of the soldiers on the ground, they did a great job in very difficult circumstances.  But unless the US and UK governments and politicians let Iraq form a true democracy with out meddling in it, politically and economically, there will continue to be resentment of the US and the UK by many people around the world, especially in the middle east.  
Hold your government accountable to do the right thing, its the kid down the street that has to go to war to clean up their mistakes, not the guys in the white house.  

In closing, if this post gets you mad as hell, read it again.  I'm not questioning American values, I'm questioning if your political and economic leaders are upholding and obeying those values in US relations with other countries and peoples.

Tom believes they are acting in good faith, I'm not so sure, if anyone has read any good articles one way or the other I'd like to know.  As you can tell I haven't read many "good news" stories about big business and politicians.  Please direct me to some.  
Thanks,
Ian




DanG

Ian, the Iraqi oil industry is already pumping again, and is marketing oil through the UN's Oil for Food program. Their oil industry is competently staffed, and will be able to regain full production without too much outside help.
The restoration of the Iraqi infrastructure is going to be a massive project. It will be funded partially by the profits of their own oil resources, but more by the benevolence of other countries, such as the US, the UK, Canada, China, and the many nations of the UN. Someone has to do the work, or at least oversee it. I'd really rather not hear a lot of whining when Halliburton, Bechtel, General Dynamics, and the like get the contracts, because they are the ONLY ones with the resources and expertise to get the job done. This is the kind of thing they are in business for, and, yes, they will make a profit from it. They are not charities, but businesses.
As far as Pres. Bush and PM Blair are concerned, why don't we wait until they show themselves to be charlatons, before we castigate them as such? I have seen nothing but upright actions on the part of either, so I have little time for your conjecture to the contrary.
I am very proud of what our leaders and our military have done in Iraq, and I pray that they will act with wisdom in the days to come. I will certainly not condemn them until they have proven themselves to be the greedy despots that you seem to percieve.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Bud Man

Five bucks worth of change and a trip to the laundry mat and It'll all come out clean and definable !  Anything will be better than what Iraq  had and I for one don't care if any smoking gun shows up or not, enough has already been revealed to justify the actions taken !  It's as a result of little or no action in the past that this conflict came about and proves that Talk Is Cheap !  Saddam's defiance to changeing his ways was brought about by lots of meetings and lots of small talk by the UN with no resulting action other than lets meet again in a few months and see what surfaces - Poppycock !
The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant

C_Miller

I couldn't find a soapbox(if I do I'm sending it Jeff's way) so I'm standing on a five gallon bucket.

   A democracy or a republic?  The US was formed as a republic, the Founding Fathers set up a Constitution that allowed local folk elect a representative to go to the captitol and speak for them.  In a Democracy everyone would pack up and head for the meeting so they would be heard.  The last person I ever heard refer to the US as a republic was on a video of Harry S Truman.
Seems we are getting away from our roots.

OneWithWood expresses the idea fundamental to Pauline evangelism. The Apostle Paul went into an area got the lay of the Spiritual land and then in his speeches explained to the local population that they already believed a lot of the Christian Gospel anyway why not go the rest.

Liberty, the freedom to choose one's own destiny, is the greatest gift God gave to man. The life and death of His son was the greatest commitment ever made to guarrantee that we would always have that gift  so spiritually liberty is never lost.  It is the responsibility of human  governments to guarranty that liberty in the secular realm and woebetide the rulers that fail in that commitment.

C

CJM

OneWithWood

DanG, I am not so sure Halliburton, Bechtel and General Dynamics are the ONLY companies big enought to get the job done.  Many a consortium of smaller companies could be formed to do the job with less political risk.  There are some large Dutch firms such as Schlumberger, Ltd. that could certainly handle the work.
If a consortium of international companies was utilized the cost and the profits could be spread around for some much needed PR with the rest of the world.
The concerns I have heard most about the companies is question is there transparent connection to those in power.  VP Cheney is the past CEO of Halliburton.  A lot of print came out when the Halliburton subsidiary KBR was awarded one of the largest military contracts ever without any competitive bidding.  BTW KBR landed the contract to put out any oil rig fires that might come out of the war, they promptly turned around and subbed it out to Boots and Coots.  The contract could just as easily been given directly to Boots and Coots.  I believe the just resigned chairman of the Defense Advisory and Policy Committee serves on the board of Bechtel.  He stepped away from the chairmanship when some congressmen began looking into the conflict of interest connection.  He is still on the committee - just not the chair.  President Bush's family connections throughout the oil industry are a matter of record.
It is the apparent financial ties to these industries that are problematic for many people both within and without the US that gives rise to the unease people are voicing on this issue.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

OneWithWood

LW.  The largest by far concentration of WMDs is located right here in the USA.  Much of the VX nerve agent is stored at a military installation less than 50 miles upwind of my house.  Sure wish we would take our own advice and get rid of it :o
There is currently a documantary running on PBS discussing WMDs, where they are produced (might surprise some people) and how they are proliferated.  The documentary is narrated by Walkter Cronkite.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

L. Wakefield

   You got it! The last 2 posts- one laying out clearly the conflict of interest of those particular companies- the other laying out the fact the the US of A has immense stockpiles of WMD materiel- add these to the shots of the child with no arms and the burns- and you can see why other countries' citizens might be saying that THIS country is part of an 'axis of evil' and that the CinC of an army that deals damage to children is 'an evil man'. It all depends on where you stand and what you are allowed to see and hear. No one has clean hands.

   What we NEED is a way to communicate effectively, breaking through spin, lies, and communications barriers. To let the good people on both sides speak to each other. We need accountability.  lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Jeff

Does any one remember reading about the tower of babble in the Bible?
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Bud Man

The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant

CHARLIE

Well, I'm glad The U.S. had the courage to stand up and take out a dictator that was murdering and torturing his people. Men, women, children....it didn't matter.  And starve them while he gold plated rifles and toilets and such. Lord only knows how many terrorist he armed and how many he gave refuge to. He and his regime were as evil as Hitler and Stalin. France wanted to sit on their thumbs like they did when Hitler attacked Poland. It's so much easier to do nothing and then point fingers. The Iraqi people are going to be better off now and that is a fact, but our men need some time.

I just get sick and tired of hearing all the suppositions and what ifs. Heck, our boys just toppled the regime and people are already looking for all the bad things that could happen or all the bad things the U.S. could do. Why not concentrate on the good things the U.S, the U.K. and Australia is trying to do?  All the food and aide the Iraqi's are getting.  It's DanG difficult to take out a wicked regime like that and have everything up and running and perfect 2 or 3 days later. The media and the liberals need to give those men a break. Thank the Lord we don't have to depend on governments like France, Germany or Russia. They are not dependable.

It also interests me how some of the media puts a slant on what is going on.  War is not pretty, so they can show you a lot of pictures of civilians being injured or killed. But how many pictures do you see of that Marine giving children candy bars or befriending an Iraqi. DanG few.  It's sad but civilians aren't safe when war comes. Look at the Chinese that lost their lives when Japan invaded China. When Germany bombed London and the Allied Forces bombed Berlin. In this war, I think the U.S. went out of their way to avoid civilian casualties and in comparison to other wars they did a darn great job.          
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

HORSELOGGER

I think we should form a democracy ( instead of the representative republic we have now ) and vote to do away with term limits for the President! If George Bush is talented and smart enough to orchestrate the destruction of the World Trade Center and make it look like terrorists from the middle east, and get 40 some other countries to go along with it, so that he could "invade" Iraq just to pad his portfolio and get a little side work for his buddies construction company, all in 2 short years..... Wow! this guy is a mover and shaker!      C Miller.... Paul the Apostle preached against a synchrenistic approach to the Gospel,  while he may have looked for a spiritual "launching pad" so to speak.... to find a place to start his delivery,    ( most notably on Mars Hill, in the Book of Acts) he never tried to blend the pagan religions with Christianity.
Heritage Horselogging & Lumber Co.
"Surgical removal of standing timber, Leaving a Heritage of timber for tommorow. "

C_Miller

Yeah, that's more like what I was thinkin'. I didn't mean to imply that Paul tried to blend paganism or Judaism for that matter with Christianity.  But use established beliefs as a staring point to preach the Gospel.  He was also very tolerant of the new Christians behavior realising people change slowly. That became a point of contention with the religious right back then.  

C
CJM

L. Wakefield

   An interesting read for Easter. I like the reminder that Christ supported mercy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,939202,00.html    

   A happy and peaceful Easter to you.   lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

HORSELOGGER

LW    The only place that blood retribution and mercy are at opposite ends of the spectrum are in that guys imagination. In typical liberal "liberation theology" ( strongly supported in third world countries) the scriptures are only used as a proof text for their pre concieved or determined ideas. No real systematic theology is in place. The same Almighty that came to this earth as the Lord Jesus, is the same almighty that instituted the "bloody animal" sacrifices. The death, burial and resurection of Jesus didnt "happen" to Him because of the religious right of the first century,  rather it was the plan of our Soveirgn God from the foundations of the earth. There is no mercy without justice, they are equal sides of a two track road, running the same direction.  This weekend Passover and Ressurection Sunday remembered,  The blood on the doorposts for the passover, and the blood and flesh of the communion meal are both symbolic teachings instituted by God, not man. The scripture says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.  Mercy.... YES! but without justice?   How??? I thought the article was poor.
Heritage Horselogging & Lumber Co.
"Surgical removal of standing timber, Leaving a Heritage of timber for tommorow. "

L. Wakefield

   There has been a lot of discussion over whether or not the nature of God changes over time. Some think not, claiming the 'alpha and omega' nature- already knowing the end- as support of that.  (Some indeed, reading into this predestination, and unable to accept that, leave completely). Others read stories of God 'repenting' and changing 'his' mind as indicative that God does indeed change over time.

   I've heard even fundamentalists preach about the passage concerning the 'sacrifices of a contrite heart' as replacing the need for blood sacrifice.

   Each of us finds our own way in this.  lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

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