Just the Facts, the Crown virus.

[kantuckid]

I got my booster last Thursday, the 9th. Pretty well organized at the local Walgreens. One thing was different from the other jabs. Back then those of us waiting were given a briefing while we waited the 15 minute observation period. Part of that briefing covered the fact that the 3 vaccine makers were looking into whether or not a booster would be needed. This time I didn't have to wait 15 minutes. Jab, update my card, then i was free to go. No observation period needed this time.

The woman that cuts my hair is hard of hearing, and mostly reads lips. If you or someone you know wears a mask with glasses you may be entitled to condensation.

FWIW, The lady who cuts my hair-she and I have been having an affair for over 50 years and her hearing exceeds that of a German Shepard!  :D No condensation involved... 8)
I did a senior flu shot @ CVS, sign up online for like 15 vaccines on the list.  Pharmacists do the shot then back to counting pills. 

[ronwood]

Doc Henderson,

What is the efficiency of the Moderna vaccine based on your meeting this morning?

Also do you have any idea why it is said that the mutations occur in the vaccinated  more so than those who been vaccinated.

Thanks
Ron

[doc henderson]

I do not know about Moderna, as it was not quoted, but i will try to find out.  the data may be sporadic as this is so new.  I am not sure about more mutations in vaccinated, but it may be because the vaccinated folks are less likely to get the original viruses and therefore statistically more likely to get a variant that they are more susceptible to.  there have prob been millions of variations/mutations, but since it usually makes a virus less infectious or dangerous, you never hear about them.  as an example, if the mutation makes the virus unable to replicate or attach, it will never reproduce and become prevalent enough to be discovered.  It is like if 100% of the population was vaccinated, then 100% of breakthrough cases would be in vaccinated people, and no cases in the unvaccinated.  this is why you have to look at a numerator over a denominator of possible cases.  so if there were 10 cases of covid and all were vaccinated, it might seem bad. if you say there were 10 cases out of 100,000 vaccinated people, not so bad.  1 covid case out of 10 non vaccinated people, well that is 10%.  the other is 0.01%

[doc henderson]

you can also look at it like staph infections.  early on, PCN works well.  but if you have an infection with a million staph, and the PCN kills all but 2 bacteria that have some resistance, then the next infection may come from those two "Arnold Schwarzenegger" bacteria, and now you have MRSA.  

I did give blood at 1, and our area stopped testing for covid 2 months ago.  Do not worry, they are still checking me for hepatitis, HIV, syphilis, and a few other things.  I will let you all know!     

[Ianab]

Also do you have any idea why it is said that the mutations occur in the vaccinated  more so than those who been vaccinated.

Mutations of the virus happen all the time. but 99.999% don't "improve" the virus, so they die out, or are so minor that they have no real effect, and are just useful in tracking infection chains. 


The more concerning ones would be mutations that allow the virus to spread faster, or avoid the immune system, in either vaccinated or recovered patients. A far as anyone knows the Delta variant came out of India, which had a very low vaccination rate. The variant is more infectious, both in the unvaccinated folks, AND more able to break through the vaccines, simply because it's more infectious. 


A theory is that it's possible a random mutation in a vaccinated person that allowed the virus to evade that vaccine immunity better would have a survival advantage. The person's immune system would quickly mop up the original virus, leaving them infected with the resistant strain, and able to spread that to other vaccinated people around them. As far as I'm aware that hasn't actually happened (YET). The new strains simply seem more infectious overall, and so more able to break through vaccine immunity, although the vaccines still gives partial protection (a milder case).  Omicron seems more able to infect vaccinated, recovered AND non-exposed people better. 


So it's not so much that mutations Happen more in vaccinated people, in fact it's probably less as there is less virus replication in a vaccinated person, and they usually fight off the infection quicker. But a random mutation in that person might select for vaccine resistance, where as in a unvaccinated person, that vaccine resistance wouldn't be any advantage. And that would be very concerning, as we would be back to late 2019 again.  


It's sorta Catch 22. But the more cases you have, the more likely you are to get new mutations. The most concerning mutations have come from areas with low vaccination and LOTS of cases (India and Sth Africa). We haven't seen dangerous mutations appear in countries with low case numbers and high vaccine rates. (As I said, YET) 

[doc henderson]

the first case here was a guy in CA that returned from SA.  the real issue here now is delta, and the Pfizer vaccine does decrease infection rates for that, up to 75% with the booster.  I gave blood at one, get the booster at 4.  I expect it to go well, we will see.

[Ianab]

 the real issue here now is delta

Same here in NZ. Delta was just too difficult to fully eliminate. But adult vaccine rates are ~90% now, so between that and some common sense precautions case numbers haven't risen out of control, and most restrictions are being lifted.

Christmas is the main holiday time here, so that will be the real test. Lots of people will be travelling, but schools are all closed and it's coming into Summer

[Bill]

I have a question ( which may have already been answered in the first 177 pages which I have yet to read  - if so I apologize .

How would a person's immune system defeat cv19 - if they have NOT been vaccinated ?  Good genes is my guess . Even tho I ve been jabbed 3 times I am curious .

The corollary to this is what steps a person ( vaccinated or not ) can take to increase their chance of survival - especially with little complications.

Back some ~ two years ago I hypothesized that pumping up your immune system was a good strategy 

and of course now I am getting ready to celebrate the two year anniversary of our original two week flatten the curve  . . . .

[doc henderson]

so you have a good immune system.  the problem is with infectious diseases that kill you before your immune system can save you.  The first time for any infection takes longer as the immune system has to develop from scratch antibodies to label something as foreign and bad, so it can be destroyed.  next time it has memory and it takes less time to mount a response.  even if the antibodies have declined after so much time, there are memory cells just waiting for the opportunity to make those antibody's again.  antibodies label the bad stuff and trigger other chemicals and cells to come to action.  all this chemical battle is what causes inflammation, and itself causes some/most of the harm.  it triggers fever, which is a sign of infection and actually improves the function of the chemicals in the reaction that tears apart cell membranes and destroys the agent.  viruses are not alive, just membranes containing packets of DNA or RNA that can incorporate into live cells and reproduce and go on to infect other cells.  it may kill the host, and move on.  If it is a cold virus (like the old corona viruses) you have a cold, and then have immunity for future similar viruses.  Kids are born with their moms variety of antibodies.  these last for 5 months, then the kid is on their own, and must get a hundred viruses by the age of 5 to develop their own immune system for the common stuff.  this virus (covid) does not kill you directly, but it has a propensity for lung cells.  Your immune system goes to the site of infection and starts ripping apart infected cells, now seen as foreign, and all the inflammation creates swelling (not good for thin fragile membranes that are suppose to let gasses through)  this also produces mucus and debris and then for some reason you cannot breath.  (sarcasm).  the vaccine is supposed to create a foe infection to prepare your body for "if you get the infection".  It has all happened so fast.  The alternative is to have to wait 20 years for a vaccine.  instead we have the opportunity to use it before we know all the facts.  The debate is weather to wait till all is known, and poss. loose millions why we wait.  or do we jump in with technology (developed in the past) assuming, hoping, studying as we go, that it works and saves more live than would be lost if we did nothing.  It is hard to wait when you think you have an answer.  it is hard to "choose" when you are being told what to do.  ... does that answer your question.   ???   ;)    we do not have all the answers.  

[Ianab]

How would a person's immune system defeat cv19 - if they have NOT been vaccinated ?  Good genes is my guess . Even tho I ve been jabbed 3 times I am curious .

This is a good question, and relates to how the immune system reacts to any new foreign invader. How it works is immune cells can potentially make millions of different antibody combinations, depending on what is attacking. Those cells are there, but few in number and don't do anything until they come across something that matches the exact protein combination they are randomly set to latch on to. If that happens the few immune cells that have that particular "key" will both produce antibodies, AND multiply. You get other effects like fever and inflammation as a side effect of that immune response. Your body has the blueprints to make practically any antibody it might need, but not enough cells to mass produce them at first. 

Now it becomes a competition between the virus multiplying, and your immune response to that virus building up. If you are lucky, and have a good immune system, your body gets ahead of the virus, before too much damage is done. You end up with a mild case, and soon recover. That's what happens when you catch a cold for example. Unfortunately you might be unlucky, and the virus keeps ahead, damages your body and eventually overloads the immune system so that itself goes haywire, and starts harming your own body. Then you die. 

Now if you survive this, you now have antibodies and the cells to make more, If you get exposed again soon after, you body will laugh at the virus and kill it off quick. That's naturally acquired immunity. 

Now what any vaccine does is shows your immune system a harmless or partial version of the virus, this creates a mild (hopefully) immune response, and causes the relevant immune cells to multiply and start making antibodies for that particular virus, without you actually catching the disease. In the case of the Pfizer vaccine, that takes 2 or 3 shots to build up good protection, AND the protection seems to gradually wear off. The antibodies gradually clear from your system as no more are being produced, and the Immune cells that can make them gradually die off I assume, although that takes longer. This is true for both vaccine AND natural immunity, although the natural immunity might be slightly better?

But the idea (of any vaccine) is that it "pre-primes" your immune system, before the virus gets there. If the virus then invades, you have 1,000X times as many of the right immune cells to fight it. and some antibodies already in your blood. It's activated the same immune cells that the virus was going to, just before the infection. That gives you a couple of days head start over the non-vaccinated person. The virus might get clobbered before it really gets a foothold, and you are considered immune. Or you might get a milder case by fighting off the virus sooner. If your immune system sucks because you are old and/or sick, you might be unlucky and still die, but that's MUCH less likely. 

The "new" part of the MRNA vaccines is that they use "messenger RNA", which causes your own cells to produce the protein fragment that matches part of the virus, rather than modifying a deactivated virus to cause the same immune response like more traditional vaccines. But the end result is similar. The MRNA in the vaccine gets used up in the process, and the target protein molecules created get cleaned up by your newly trained immune system. The only real risk is an out of control immune response, and that's a much more likely risk in an actual virus infection. There have been some unfortunate side effects from the vaccine, but from local numbers your chance of dying from the vaccine is about 1 in 7 million. Chances of dying while acquiring natural immunity, about 1 in 167. 

Back some ~ two years ago I hypothesized that pumping up your immune system was a good strategy

and of course now I am getting ready to celebrate the two year anniversary of our original two week flatten the curve

Frustrating isn't it. What's most frustrating is the idea of not taking the vaccine "because it doesn't work". Of course it wont work if you haven't had it. Best protection is still to get a booster shot, because while you have a significant portion of the population that's still on "Team Virus" doing their best to spread it, it's going to be spread. 2 years down the track and we are still seeing ~8,000 dead each day around the world. 

[doctorb]

Let me piggy back a bit on doc h's reply.

Throughout this thread, there's been a lot said about improving one's immune system.  There's a whole lot to unpack with that....and the answer at the end of the day is....we have yet to understand how to measure a person's "abilities" with regard to their immune system, and we don't really know how to determine what maximizes your immunity.

People are different, and their immune systems are different.  There's evidence that being exposed to lots of different stuff (call it the playing in the dirt theory) makes your immune system stronger.  Kinda makes sense, but how does one determine that?  There's evidence that a good diet and adequate levels of vitamins lead to decreased infections.  While we can measure vitamin levels, we still don't know how that really happens.

And we then have our cultural response to such unknown factors.....take a whole lot of supplements!  And the more you take, the stronger your immune system (and potentially every other human frailty) will be!   ;D ;)  Probably not.  There are hosts of tests to see how your body reacts to chosen substances, drugs, and other allergens.  We don't have the same battery of tests to see how you'll handle pneumococcal pneumonia, strep throat, MRSA, or coronavirus.  Heck, it wasn't too long ago we were wiping down school desks for fear of MRSA.  Man, things have changed.

Somewhere in the future, I envision that we will be able to "see" how we individually would handle such infections, and efforts to boost the immune response against them could be implemented.  But some of us probably have our immune systems operating near their peak level, and no amount of tests or supplements will improve it much beyond that point.

My point is that I don't look at my immune system in the same way one looks at your muscle mass.  If you want to get stronger, exercise more, lift weights, work out and you will get stronger.  There is no gym for our immune systems.  I believe most people are actually trying to prevent a decrease in their immune response that could be caused by a dietary lack of needed building blocks.  Once those blocks are in adequate supply, which I don't think requires boxes of pills everyday, I'm not sure you can continue to "make it stronger".  If you have a medical condition or a diet that doesn't supply the right stuff over a long period of time, then maximizing the needed elements makes sense.  But I'm not sure that the average person can make a huge improvement in their immune response to a given infection through supplements. Now, this is all my opinion, so forgive me.  Please realize that one of the reasons it is unreferenced opinion is that we know so little about our immune response system.

[mike_belben]

I have read many research papers lately on immune response trying to troubleshoot a disease and anyone who tells you that the human race knows exactly how it works is IMO, out of step with the people studying it.  The leading researchers know alot.  Enough to make my eyes cross and put me to sleep every night, but every paper ends with maybes and perhapses and we dont knows. Which i certainly believe to be the case.  

Gut microbial disbyosis is a sure way to have your immune system attacking you without any need for covid.  Apparently many viruses can also trigger the immune system to attack the host and cause chronic disease. If you figure out how to solve that riddle you better bottle it and nail up a shingle that says 'we are open.'

western medicine has yet to cure any of the chronic immune diseases that im aware of.  Excellent at lifesaving from traumatic injury.  Terrible at disease prevention, it is rising continually in the US.

Those individuals who seem to have gone rogue and credibly claim to have cured themselves, have radically changed diet as a common denominator.  Excessive Linoleic acid and bacterial composition of the stomach seem to be the two most common themes i am encountering in all these studies of a wide range of sickness.


You wanna be sick less and feel better in every way?  Load up on fruits veggies and fish often.

[doc henderson]

remember it is your immune system after a viral infection that is thought to be the cause of type 1 diabetes in kids after the immune response cross references your pancreatic cells.  it is not perfect.  If you are sick in the hospital with covid, we give you large doses of steroids, to quell and decrease your immune response.  "The cure (immune system and inflammation) is worse than the disease".  it is complex and confusing.  the immune system is destroying the viral infected cells, and also you in the process.  it is like a war, and you are not sure who is winning until it is over.  You may survive but have lasting injury to tissue like cardiac, brain, lung.  how do you know what will be worse, the whole virus or some part of it designed to mimic a protein.

[Roxie]

I'm so sad for humanity, but do want to again thank our doc henderson and doctorb!  You've kept us grounded.

In addition I would like to share with our members a protocol developed by Dr Peter A McCullough for use at home after a day of exposure to others:

Use 2 teaspoons of hydrogen peroxide or betadine in 6 ounces of water and first use part in nasal syringe (both nostrils) until it goes down your throat. Spit it out. Then use the rest of the mixture as a mouth rinse and gargle then spit out.

[newoodguy78]

@Ianab you're mistaken if you think unvaccinated people have joined "team virus" and doing their best to spread it. Thought this was about facts and not opinions? Your statement there was anything but facts. 

[doctorb]

So the immune system is just like being an offensive lineman.     You hear a lot more about it when something goes wrong than when things go right.  We don't yet know how to measure "right" as it pertains to immunity.

[Jeff]

Ian, that team virus comment is extremely distasteful. Injections such as that into this coversation in my humble opinion are unproductive to maintaining any harmony in this conversation and serves to raise my personal message count that id rather not have to deal with.

[mike_belben]

"The cure (immune system and inflammation) is worse than the disease".  it is complex and confusing.  the immune system is destroying the viral infected cells, and also you in the process.  it is like a war, and you are not sure who is winning until it is over.  You may survive but have lasting injury to tissue like cardiac, brain, lung.  how do you know what will be worse, the whole virus or some part of it designed to mimic a protein.

From what i am reading the immune system coming into contact with things it doesnt "understand" causes it to go suicidal.  Attacking the hosts own brain stem or nerve myelin or joints or intestines or..  


There are many who think the dietary changes of the last 120 yrs create the backdrop for this 'foreign object' haywire immune response.  Its hard to know since medicines' understanding of what is going on inside a person has changed so radically in that time frame.

[Bill]

...
It is hard to wait when you think you have an answer.  it is hard to "choose" when you are being told what to do.  ... does that answer your question.   ???   ;)    we do not have all the answers.  

Thank You .
Although I have very little medical training ( does Boy Scouts first aid 50+ yrs ago count ? ) I seem to have accumulated a bunch of unrequested OJT experience .

Some thoughts for others ( and the more medically astute among us ? ) .  I have spring and fall allergies and am told its cause I have an overactive immune system .  hmmmm

I get a fair number of colds ( cause of my moist allergy susceptible sinuses or different variants of virus ?  ) but I have " devised " my own ( non FDA approved ) remedies.
ie One of them runs counter to the old tales Grandma used to subscribe to. I go outside in the sun and fresh air as much as I can when I get sick . Way back - early 70's - a Dr told me when I got sick in my first indoor job it was because I wasn't getting all the sunshine and fresh air that killed " germs " as when I was outdoors.

Another theory of mine is to change the reaction .
If you heat wood in a frying pan it catches fire - but - put wood in water in that pan and no fire. Simple - change the factors and you get different outcome.
Seems to me it could be used way more often in illness treatments than I m aware  . . . .
ie may explain why my nasal allergy spray seems to take the bite out of nasal infections - heck even a saline solution seems to help .  ( Note: to critics - I did say " seems " )

Some may think I practice homeopathic medicine - answer is yes - till a traumatic event occurs that requires allopathic medicine cause - so far I prefer this side of the grass . . .

[doctorb]

I certainly don't want to give the impression that we are "nowhere" when it comes to understanding and using our immune system in certain instances.  We have made some incredible strides.  If you want to check that out, I suggest you look at all those medical advertisements you see on TV.  Don't look at the brand name of whatever they are trying to sell, look at the generic name below it.  If you do, you will note that many, many of these new drugs end in the same three letters, "xxxxxxxxmab".  That stands for Monoclonal AntiBody.  And that means we are using the immune system to attack something. Could be psoriasis, chronic bowel disease, diabetes, cancer, or a host of other ailments.  We are partnering with the immune system more than ever before, and the new vaccines are just another pathway into manipulating it for our benefit.

[mike_belben]

Bill, sunlight somehow produces vitamin D in our cells. 

[Ljohnsaw]

end in the same three letters, "xxxxxxxxmab". That stands for Monoclonal AntiBody

I learn something new every day here!

A little OT: I just watch those ads and listen for the long list of side effects... most seem to have "and may include death."  One also added, "even after you stop taking xxx".  Is the risk of death worth stopping hair loss? :D

[BradMarks]

I call BS on "Team Virus" Ian. R e s p e c t, what it means to you and me....   And thanks Jeff, I did not see your post as I went straight to the bottom to reply.

[doc henderson]

lots of things make us feel better but do not affect the course of the disease.  nasal irritation from allergy or infection may feel better with nasal spray.  Even things known not to help at all, will make people feel better if they believe it might or will.  the Placebo effect.  The immune system works off a series of chemicals and triggers.  it is not perfect.  you may die from overwhelming infection or an overwhelming immune response, or both.  allergies are an overactive immune response to foreign substances like pollen.  Anaphylaxis is the extreme example.  we try to do immune modulation.  for rheumatoid arthritis, you may actually be on a chemo agent.  anytime we use a steroid we are tryin to quiet the immune response, like asthma, poison ivy, arthritis, covid pneumonitis.  there are different types of reactions and to different degrees.  this is why there are specialties in allergy and immunology, and rheumatology.  a transfusion reaction to blood, is your body taking out red cells that differ in antigenic makeup, like A+ or B-.  It is antibodies that identify those antigens and mark foreign cells for destruction.  inflammation in the plaque in a coronary artery, may prompt a myocardial infarction.  ibuprofen is also anti-inflammatory.  during a stress or sever infection, your body produces 2-to-3-times more steroid which seems counterintuitive.  your adrenal produces the equivalent of 7 mg of prednisone a day.  we give stress dose steroids to people whos adrenals do not work, and why we taper down steroid if used more than 7 days.  antibiotics enhance the immune system.  you can fight an infection without antibiotics, but you cannot fight infection without an immune system (with antibiotics alone).  This is why infection is so dangerous to people after chemo.  most chemo attacks rapidly reproducing cells like cancer cells.  It there for affects the GI tract, and white blood cells as these reproduce rapidly.

[doc henderson]

I feel Ian has contributed much, and we have all had moments we stated things maybe off a degree or two, myself included.  We should all be patient with one and other, and this extends also to Ian.