Looking for input from Maine Loggers/Forestry Workers

[Ramicorn]

Hey Folks,

I work for a pulp mill in Nova Scotia Canada, and our province recently did a review of forestry practices and basically came back saying we should do things like Maine, the reviewer listened quite closely to a professor Seymour from maine and the triad approach, ie 1/3 keeping forest basically proctected, 1/3 partial/selective/restoration cutting and 1/3 high production forestry.

What has been your experience in Maine with this type of forest management ethos.

Thanks,
Teddy

[Southside]

Over the last 20 years Maine has lost many of it's lumber mills, almost all the paper mills, about every hydro dam, probably a million acres of timberland has been sold to investment firms, multiple cogeneration plants have failed, taxes have increased, drug use is absolutely rampant, and now what was a massive swath of productive timber land is now a national monument. Many working age folks like myself left for economic opportunities.

So I guess it's all in your perspective of what a good plan looks like. Oh, and the spruce budworm is knocking on the door now and it seems nobody remembers the lessons learned from the last time that little guy visited in the 70's and 80's. 

But overall the coast is pretty in the summer..  

[nativewolf]

Opinion Ahead:  Don't mean to offend anyone in Maine!

Well to be fair...the mills closing doesn't have much to do with Maine or anything in Maine.  They closed almost every week from South Africa to Finland to the Carolinas.  Lumber mills the same, many small mills gone, the remaining ones are designed to be fed industrial wood of very little variation, hard for natural forest to compete and Maine was mostly natural forest.  Drug use is rampant in West Virginia, TN, LA, and places with almost no forest like Kansas.  It's a national tragedy, irrespective of our interest in forest.  

My grandfather and his brothers went broke in Maine papermills in late 50s-60s, they all recovered and gained back some wealth but the plant they owned nearly destroyed them and they only survived by closing it, so my perspective is that it's been boom/bust for a century.  

The rest of the issue...it's an interesting challenge.  I know one family well and when they tried to preserve their own land the local communities were outraged, it was a darn big chunk of land but it was their land.  I found the community reaction funny as hell.  They  (community ) didn't own the land but wanted to have free run of it, dictate how it was being used.  If the community had acted like that to me I'd have told them to go take a long walk on a short pier.  The family is not so popular locally but tried to mend fences, has more friends outside Maine now I guess.  I don't have a dog in the fight since I haven't been back to maine in 20 years.  

 Why the community doesn't chip in and buy the darn land is perplexing to me.  I mean the total value of forest land sold to investors was likely less than a billion dollars, for a state that's really not huge coin.  

What's the lesson:  When someone's cheese is moved they typically get upset.  It will take a great deal of public discourse, polite Canadian discourse, to agree on the best way to accomplish that change.  Even then, there will be unhappy folks on both sides of the debate.  It's the change that is going to upset folks, the actual fact that most northern forest are not economically viable in our hyper globalized wood basket world is pretty much proven out.  Decide on a desired outcome and then figure out how to pay for that outcome.

It takes a lot of subsidy and investment to make forestry work in natural softwood forest and by writing off large amounts of acreage you can focus the subsidy on less (best) land and fewer people and try to make what is left as efficient as possible.  That's probably your best long term outlook because the long term price for softwoods is in a steady decline that has only been arrested by China's massive wood appetite.  When China wraps up phase 1 of development and they finish buying Russia they'll not need nearly as much US and Canadian softwood.  Then we've got a tremendous amount of young perfectly engineered loblolly (how do I get rid of that ?) pine wood getting ready to flood the market.  I project a very gloomy season ahead for pricing in softwoods.  For that reason, turning the most unproductive parts of the forest into parks might not be a bad idea.  Getting from A to B will be the painful part.

That or figure out how to grow 30 year old 40" diameter pine like New Zealand or 20" perfect 15-30 year Lob Pines like Zoebel figured out at NC State.  

[Southside]

Nativewolf, you make a lot of valid points, especially the one about the future of all this planted pine we have in the southeast. As far as a billion dollars in Maine, it's unobtanium, impossible. I am from the very northern part of the state and although I could see that Maine never gets ahead it took me leaving to realize how financially bad off the state really is.  

It's sad, there are a lot of very hard working folks there, but they are fighting the tide in a tsunami.  A part of me misses so much of what Maine offers, but I could never build what I have managed to create here back in Maine. 

[Maine logger88]

Naitivewolf just curious what mill did your grandfather own?

[mike_belben]

Cowles lumber in mass had similar community issues.  You let everyone have free access to timber land and suddenly the hikers want to tell you that you cant allow the dirtbikes in.  Or they push for the state to emminent domain it out from under you with some BS historic site plan or wildlife corridor, appalachian trail watershed etc etc etc.  Its that eco activism.  

[Ianab]

The NZ model is basically either high production managed forests (think growing trees like corn, with a slightly longer crop rotation), or locked up for conservation. Around 5% of the country in plantation forest, and maybe 25% in native forest. Some of that has been logged and is now regrowing. Give it another 500 years maybe?

The high production you can get from an intensively managed forest means you can basically lock up the rest, and use if for filming LOTR movies. On a global scale NZ isn't a big timber producer, around 1%, but NZ isn't a big place, and it is our 3rd most valuable export

The NZ forests don't lend themselves well to selective management, trees are too slow growing, or won't regenerate from even a small clear cut. It is possible to get a native timber permit for privately owned native forest (there is only a small amount of that), but the "sustainable harvest" is something around 5 trees a year from 1,000 acres. 

[nativewolf]

Naitivewolf just curious what mill did your grandfather own?

I'll have to ask my mom, it was a painful humbling experience for a driven guy.  At a young age he was #2 in the rocky mount NC facility (1933), then up in NY for a couple of stops, then WWII, then back to paper where he eventually ended up setting up and running the mill that would become reigelwood/IP (he might have built one of the last mill towns in NC, they don't build mill towns anymore).  He had issue with the owners (boiler safety-years later it blew, killed people) and rather than bend he left and his brothers tried their hand owning a plant in Maine.  He never wanted to talk much about it, he was much more interested in talking about paying for the first environmental impact assessment in NC, to preserve Smith Island (renamed bald head) in NC's Cape Fear River delta.  
The local capital paper was at that time a fierce Democratic operation.  Every week they had a "Person of the week" for the state of NC.  When they sold out in late 80s they had a banquet for all those people, it turned out my granddad was the only republican to have received the award in 40 years that it had been awarded.  I was also busted then, I had remained unknown at NC State because he was my maternal Grandfather.  He invited me to the award ceremony and turns out my Dean was there and he knew my Grandfather...busted.  Then I was expected to do all sorts of stuff I avoided for the first 3 years.  No more tree climbing competitions but dept meetings and other boring crap.

[nativewolf]

Nativewolf, you make a lot of valid points, especially the one about the future of all this planted pine we have in the southeast. As far as a billion dollars in Maine, it's unobtanium, impossible. I am from the very northern part of the state and although I could see that Maine never gets ahead it took me leaving to realize how financially bad off the state really is.  

It's sad, there are a lot of very hard working folks there, but they are fighting the tide in a tsunami.  A part of me misses so much of what Maine offers, but I could never build what I have managed to create here back in Maine.

Well unobtanium is expensive stuff for sure.  In which case I'd predict the gradual slow decline of commercial forestry and a transition to environmental based activity and lots of wilderness.  Some towns might take decades to make the transition. They'll still be pockets of of forest activity, specialist, guys like our own Steven Alford up across the border, doing things differently (his circle). 

[snowstorm]

well i guess i didnt realize how bad off we are up here. dose this mean i have to return the mercedes thats in my garage?

[Ramicorn]

I guess more specifically, robert seymour has convinced our reviewer that we should only rely on clearcuts for 25% of out harvests from crown wood, the rest being partial cuts, selective cuts etc. Currently our pulp mill using 60% clearcut wood for our supply off of crown. Would be a tough transition up here if not impossible, Im sure there are similarities to maines landscape but our company works on a lot of crappy ground with alot of fir, doesn't lend itself to well to any kind of partial cuts.

[Southside]

well i guess i didnt realize how bad off we are up here. dose this mean i have to return the mercedes thats in my garage?

I said there are a lot of hard working folks there, and I know plenty who are no further ahead than they were 10 years ago, especially in The County. 

[nativewolf]

well i guess i didnt realize how bad off we are up here. dose this mean i have to return the mercedes thats in my garage?

Oh that's where I left it.  *DanG straight you need to bring it back :D

[nativewolf]

I guess more specifically, robert seymour has convinced our reviewer that we should only rely on clearcuts for 25% of out harvests from crown wood, the rest being partial cuts, selective cuts etc. Currently our pulp mill using 60% clearcut wood for our supply off of crown. Would be a tough transition up here if not impossible, Im sure there are similarities to maines landscape but our company works on a lot of crappy ground with alot of fir, doesn't lend itself to well to any kind of partial cuts.

I don't see how that works frankly.  I mean clearcuts are a good mimic for natural disasters, easy, reset clocks, et all.  Selective cutting is going to make it tough without more subsidy.  Do you pay anything for the wood today?  I have no idea how crown harvest work, apologies.

[Jack Lilley]

Well I'm happy my idea of good living is not the same as some of you otherwise I'd of stayed in another state living a miserable materialistic life. Yes I left the county and couldn't wait to get back here and raise my family. Be careful by what standards you judge others.

[mike_belben]

I dont think anyone judged anyone.  NW and SSL gave their insight.  It was asked for.  There was even a disclaimer about not meaning to offend anyone.  

[Tarm]

I guess more specifically, robert seymour has convinced our reviewer that we should only rely on clearcuts for 25% of out harvests from crown wood, the rest being partial cuts, selective cuts etc. Currently our pulp mill using 60% clearcut wood for our supply off of crown. Would be a tough transition up here if not impossible, Im sure there are similarities to maines landscape but our company works on a lot of crappy ground with alot of fir, doesn't lend itself to well to any kind of partial cuts.

I don't see how that works frankly.  I mean clearcuts are a good mimic for natural disasters, easy, reset clocks, et all.  Selective cutting is going to make it tough without more subsidy.  Do you pay anything for the wood today?  I have no idea how crown harvest work, apologies.

The question for NS is do they want to run a white spruce/balsam fir/aspen forest on a 50 year rotation with clearcutting and planting or do they want a red spruce/white pine/yellow birch forest on a 100 year rotation with thinnings and shelterwood regeneration.

[gman98]

I believe they are most likely referring to the intensive forestry that is taking place in northern Maine.  What aspects of it are you wondering about?  I may be able to help.

[nativewolf]

I guess more specifically, robert seymour has convinced our reviewer that we should only rely on clearcuts for 25% of out harvests from crown wood, the rest being partial cuts, selective cuts etc. Currently our pulp mill using 60% clearcut wood for our supply off of crown. Would be a tough transition up here if not impossible, Im sure there are similarities to maines landscape but our company works on a lot of crappy ground with alot of fir, doesn't lend itself to well to any kind of partial cuts.

I don't see how that works frankly.  I mean clearcuts are a good mimic for natural disasters, easy, reset clocks, et all.  Selective cutting is going to make it tough without more subsidy.  Do you pay anything for the wood today?  I have no idea how crown harvest work, apologies.

The question for NS is do they want to run a white spruce/balsam fir/aspen forest on a 50 year rotation with clearcutting and planting or do they want a red spruce/white pine/yellow birch forest on a 100 year rotation with thinnings and shelterwood regeneration.

That might be it, would make more sense...still not sure how long intensive forestry is going to work up there.  I mean I'm hopeful that anyone anywhere that loves the forest makes a good living.  I'm just concerned that globalization is going to move the cheese (for me in Northern VA as well).