OWB advice?

[Bru]

I'm working on plans for a shop and house, both hopefully to be primarily heated with OWB & in-floor radiant heat, and both to also have geothermal heat backup and a/c. No prior personal experience with radiant heat or geothermal.
Questions arise re how much can be integrated between OWB and geothermal heat exchanger with separate forced air for a/c, or whether geothermal heat and a/c shold be entirely separate system from the OWB radiant heat.

Any thoughts on what I should be looking at to be educated, or specific systems or types of systems, or things I apparently am too ignorant to even ask about, will be much appreciated.

BTW: Current reasons for considering both OWB and geothermal:
       I'm on a hilltop in southern Illinois-gets up to 100 and really humid in the summer, so a/c is really desireable.
       I'm in the middle of a tree farm, and firewood will cost me only the fuel and effort to gather and stack.
       I can build a pond within 100-150' of both house and shop, so pond-bottom geothermal shouldn't be much of a problem.
       I'm getting older than dirt, but will probably outlive my ability or desire to handle large quantities of firewood.

Suggestions appreciated.

[gspren]

  I would keep them separate, as in radiant for the OWB and forced air for the Geo Thermal. Then again I would consult with my plumber/heating/AC man before I made a final decision.

[r.man]

If you are putting in central air with the associated ducting and air handler then the geo works in well with that since it is a backup. I worked on a big house last year that had hot water radiant in the basement floor and in the master bath and an overhang area that was more exposed to the elements. They also had a hot water sidearm and a flat coil in the air handler for forced air heat. Seemed to work well for them. I expect that if you really like the radiant and get tired of the owb then an adapter would let you heat it with the geo.

[doctorb]

r.man-

If you are going to the expense of geothermal as a needed commodity for AC in summer, why wouldn't you just use geothermal FHA in the winter for heat, and forget the OWB?   

[AsaG]

NM

Mods, please delete.   

[r.man]

doctorb, I would personally do that or even put in the owb with an air to air central a/c with an electric backup but the original post asked about how to set up his three choices not whether to choose them. I like geothermal but with the ponds and the associated trade work it will be an expensive option compared to an air to air and electric furnace as a backup.

[Randy88]

I"m not sure of your age, health or access to firewood, but at the same time before doing any geothermal system, I'd consult with plenty of people that do more than just sell it, or push it, talk to those that fix it, have had it for years and used it long enough to be past the warranty and on their own with it, and have a house of similar size as the one your thinking, and also ask for all costs associated with geothermal systems.   

I know of several guys who fix all forms of every heating system ever sold, and they do nothing but complain about the geo units, and having to work on and keep them running.    Take it for what its worth, from someone who has done some homework on them and backed out of putting one in or shall I say was talked out of putting one in, by those that have them and are not a happy customer.   I've talked to dozens of people that have them, some still use them, others not, one is a church that installed the system and finally shut it down due to excessive operating costs, and upkeep costs, not to mention the initial instillation costs, which were outrageously high to begin with.   There are more than one system sold, some do cooling only, others heating and cooling both, the cooling only one's people as a general rule, love, the heating and cooling versions, not so much after time goes by, the thing you need to concentrate on and ask the questions about is the cost factor to heat the water from the ground temps up to the room temps you want it at, that's where it gets confusing and high priced, if they use electric only, or some other heat source added in, or draw the heat off the compressors heads or how its done, and what those repair and replacement parts cost, along with the electric bills to go with them, ask hard questions, and demand honest answers, on how long the parts last, whats the cost to replace, how many killowats of electricity does it take to get x number of btu's of heat out of the system, how big are the compressors, how many amps of power will it take to run them, and how does the system switch from cooling to heating, does it reverse the pumps and compressors to do that task, and if so, whats the life expectancy of those units that do it a lot of times per day, to go from heating to cooling, and how long does it take to heat the system up and cool it off every time it switches from heating to cooling and back again, five minutes, 15 minutes, how long does it run at switching times, and whats the heat differential allowable for the switching to take place, one degree or several degree's up to say 5 or more degrees and can you live with that, to save dollars in electric bills or repairs bills?   How long is the warranty on the components, can you get an extended warranty on any of the components in the system and questions like that.   Don't settle for answers that involve words like variable, about, such as, should be, so and so has this for a bill on their house, the average or things like that.   Also anyone who sells them should be able to provide a list of "all" the units they've sold, not just the one's who are happy, there is a difference.   Do your homework and don't just talk to a couple of owners that have it, talk to a lot of owners that have geo before deciding on the system or systems that work for you, same as an outdoor wood burner.   

As for how exactly to set them up, it depends on your area, your house, its location, the heating and cooling requirements, how big your house is, how protected it is from the winds and how shaded it is in the summer.   About anything can be done, its got more to do with personal preference, what the owne wants to do, and how knowledgable the installers are.   I'd first ask quesitons locally, from those doing the repairs and installing, after you find out how they do it and ask 10,000 questions and are beyond confused, give us options as to how they recommend doing it, might be a better approach to try, then we can tell you how in relationship to what we have if it works or not and how we like ours setup that way.

I have my outdoor wood boiler on a compete seperate system as the ac, but my house had ac already in it, both are hooked to forced air, the wood burner is hooked to infloor heat as well.  I've had hot water heat in several houses I've lived in, loved it, wish my house now had it, I also love infloor heat, but wouldn't heat my house totaly from infloor heat in the basement either, like some do. Best of luck

[Logging logginglogging]

I can't say i beleive in not wanting to and not doing firewood. I say do it till the day u die. having a heartattack out in the wood pile. I don't ever plan to stop doing anything, and i die that way so be it!

[doctorb]

r.man-

I should have stated my reasoning better.  My thoughts are, if you are going to use geothermal as a backup for heat and for AC in the warm months, why have any other heat, besides possibly electric backup?  I love my OWB.  I, too, have central AC for the summer.  I have also heard of the problems of geothermal, although I know two people that own it and swear by it.

My question would be then, trying to be more exact, why would you pay the high $ for geothermal if you wouldn't use it as your primary heat source?  If you spend upwards of $50,000 (estimate for geothermal on my house), why buy, install, and do the work necessary to maintain an OWB?  The idea of backup geothermal heat is a bit unusual to me.  Sorry if I confused anybody.

[ronwood]

doctorb,

I installed geothernmal this summer in my home. With the federal tax credits and the rebates from the the electric company it was not to much more costly than a high efficiency (2 stage) air conditioner.  Currently I have the CB OWB still has my primary heat source and have it set to switch over it the water temp from the OWB is to low.

I think that some of the issue with geothermal is how it is installed especially in the install of the wells or the horizontal runs that the pipes run through.  My system was a 5 ton Water Furnace  2stage with heat recover for hot water and zoning system (2 store house )for around 20K before rebates and tax credits.

Ron

[Bru]

All the  sugestions and comments are most welcome; keep 'em coming!
  Availability of firewood: entirely too much firewood is and will be available--just the tops from the trees taken down in December will probably last me 4 or 5 years if I get the place properly built and insulated. Potential of around another 100 trees / year, just culling out the low-grade stuff. However, I'm now 70 and there will come days when handling firewood is not top priority, or not practicable.
   The area is rural, and occasional power outages are expected in winter--I'd rather run a small generator for pumps on the in-floor radiant heat from OWB than a bigger generator to run a geothermal or air-air or straight electric heat backup.
   Should I be looking at LNG / propane as a backup rather than geothermal? We'll likely have LNG / propane for cooking anyway. Would that be easier / greatly cheaper to interface with the radiant heat from the OWB?
    One consideration for geothermal is that I have a TLB and time; I should be able to figure out how to trench and fit up pipe for the under-pond field.
    SWMBO has an aversion to forced-air as primary heat, including some breathing difficulties when living in forced-air heat--part of the reason for primary radiant in-floor.
  Re rebates and tax credits: I tend to be a pessimist, in addition to being leary when the gummint offers to come and help me.  I will plan and budget on the assu,ption that I will bear all the expense; if the accounting wizard finds me a golden acorn at tax time it'll be a pleasant surprise.
   More details on systems you are familiar with will be welcome from anyone--the more I think I know, the more ingenious mistakes I can make...
   

[Randy88]

Bru, just curious, why would you consider spending that kind of money on a backup system for heating, like geo?    How big is the house your going to build and how many levels are you planning on using,  full living in basement, walkout basement, heated garage, what square footage are you talking, and about the shop, what size and square footage is that.    Instead of worrying about backup heating, per say, like spending that kind of money, how about hooking an electric heater water heater up, or gas, and when you have a problem with the outdoor wood boiler, just kick in the element or the gas on and heat in reverse for the house and shop, total cost would be what.....500 bucks per heater, one for the house another for the shop.  Its just backup anyhow, your in reality going to use it what, once every five or ten years if that.   With any system you go with, if the power goes out, your gonna need a generator anyhow to run it, for the interest on the geo system in one year you could buy a generator, whatever water heaters you wanted, put the sidearms on the for the wood boiler, and pocket the extra and forget the geo completely, for heating. 

As for cooling, do some homework and figure out the cost difference between central ac and the cost to install a low pressure simple geo for cooling with a circulation pump in it, either way you need to run heat ducts, if your running them anyhow, heat the bulk of your house with forced air and put the infloor heat in the basement, or slab, whatever your doing, you having really said for a house, and in the shop floor.    Depending on if you want to cool your shop as well, and how big it is, just hook up the geo simple pump cooling only system and put it to a radiator and put a fan behind it for cooling the shop, again you haven't stated if your even considering cooling the shop as well as the house.   

I guess we need some more information as to exactly what your thinking on building.   I personally wouldn't worry about backup heating much, not to be harsh, your 70 and your health could change tomorrow, if it does or when it does, or if your get tired of heating with the outside wood boiler, you can always worry then how to heat the bulk of your house and shop, at that point in time, why install something, you might not use for 10-15 years and be in need of repair by then so it could be used at that time, any warranty would be off, it would basically be sitting for maybe that lenght of time till it gets used.   

I don't know how much you plan on using your shop, how big it is, what your doing in it per say and how long you plan on using it, it all plays a role on how much you want to spend on it, the sky's the limit or just the bare bones, its more personal preference than anything, personal goals and interests, we have no idea, you haven't said, all the above play the largest role in how to heat a shop, my dad doesn't heat his, but his basement instead, in the winter, he doesn't want to go outside and work, only downstairs, he has a dust collection system and all his tools to do wood working in the basement, again its personal preference, his outside shop has his planer and lumber storage only.

As for a backup generator, about any small gas generator putting out 4-6k should run anything for heating and cooling you'd need for a house and shop, remember its only temporary, not doing it 24/7 for months on end, I wouldn't even worry about hooking it up permanent, wire an outlet into the main panel somewhere and bring it out for the occasional use.   In the last 8 years, I've only used a generator once, for one day and I really didn't need it then either, I certainly wouldn't spend much money on a backup system, for my area, maybe yours is different, we don't know.   You haven't stated if your on a well water system of your own, and if so, how big is the pump motor on that, or rural water?   

[Bru]

Again, thanks to all for making me clarify a bit more.
  As currently planned, house will be single story, with full basement, about 2400 sq ft per level. Hill slope will permit walkout basement, so likely the OWB will be built right up against the walkout portion of the basement wall, under a deck, with drive-up access for delivery & storage of pallets of next-to-be-used firewood. Expect basement walls will be ~ 5' below grade, balance of height above grade and bermed.
  Hadn't really considered heating garage....hmm. Thanks for the idea.
  Heatable  & a/c portions of shop building expected to also total about 2400 sq. ft. divided unevenly into 1. woodworking, 2.greasy / rusty work area, and 3. small "clean shop".  Greasy / rusty area will have taller ceiling for machinery such as TLB.
  When weather is good--about 5 months per year, I'll expect outside activity  except for machine maintenance and honey-do jobs.   During rainy (most of winter) or just-too-*DanG-hot weather, I'll be in the shop most of the time.
   There will also be a machine shed, unheated, for storage of various machines, and eventually a permanent shed for the WM mill. Hoping to learn enough about sawmilling and post-and-beam to put up some of the smaller sheds myself.
   I'm hoping to be working on something around the property / shop until I drop dead in the woodpile.  Could be tomorrow or another 20 years.
   Anyway, further comments are welcome, and referrals to sources of info for me to study are especially welcome.
Thanks, all.

[r.man]

The comment about backups breaking down over time and warranties running out is very thought provoking. I missed that part completely. If you are considering lpg for cooking that would be a good choice for backup with a gas fired hot water heater. With just a circulation pump and a couple of extra valves the hw tank could take over from the owb system by using all of its in house components. Switchover would involve a few manual valves and a second thermostat. What it lacks in yearly running economy it would more than make up for in simplicity and initial cost savings. It is difficult to justify the pay back time for a geo system unless you can do it mostly yourself and on the cheap.