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idler pulley

Started by charles mann, January 29, 2019, 04:56:17 PM

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charles mann

i will be running a 3 groove, 5V, more than likely, banded, but may run 3 single belts IF they have them locally. 
for my idle pulley, which i may also use as my drive engagement pulley, would running a flat pulley on the back of the belts hurt the belts? i was thinking of using that style so when i "engage" the pulley, using a lever, it pushes into the belt/s and with a love joy (to keep tension on the belts during use) with the proper ft/lb of force (dayton says 15 ft/lbs per # of grooves or belts, so mine would be around 45 ft/lbs for initial 24-48 hrs of use, break in, then around 36 ft/lbs), instead of pulling the belt/s with a 3 groove pulley and still use the love joy to keep tension on the belt/s. 

the reason for pushing the belt/s, instead of pulling, is bc checking for proper tension is done by pushing, not pulling the belts. 

Thoughts??? suggestions???


i know, or at least from the pics iv seen and the few banded belts iv seen in person, there is a slight crown, just as there is on a single v belt. im just not sure if a flat pulley will damage the the crown, causing premature failure, and at around $250-350 per banded, and about the same combining 3 single belt prices, i dont want to crap out belts bc im doing something wrong.   
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

charles mann

also, the idle pulley should be the same size as my driving (engine mounted) pulley, correct? 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Southside

I am not following where the love joy comes into the picture but your description of the triple belt and having the idler push from the back is exactly how my Super 70 is set up.

Not sure on the diameter of the drive and idle wheel but they do look to be the same.
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

mike_belben

I dont see the lovejoy either.


I backside idled vee belts on my international to drive onboard air and tore up belts very quickly when the flat side tensioner was a waterpump bearing with about 1.5" diameter roller.  Even though the roller was very shallow into the belts, the radius was too sharp from the small roller diameter.  

If you want to backside tension, dont go smaller than like 4" diameter idler pulley on a belt that expensive, and try not to bend the belt very far around it backwards if possible.  The waterpump bearing was cheap and reliable for me but it needed a big sleeve or hub machined to fatten it up.   The problem was solved when that was deleted and slack adjustment incorporated elsewhere.  Prob 30k miles on current belts. 
Praise The Lord

charles mann

my drive is 4.5" and driven, 16" ill draw up something crude to hopefully explain the love joy. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

charles mann

sorry about the scaling.  

 

mount the idle pulley to the love joy, that has about the same ft/lb requirement to keep the belts tight. mount the love joy to a lever, that when actuated, either manual or mechanically, the lever pushes the love joy and pulley into the belt.
would need an rt15 set in the 30° tension angle to achieve required tension, but yet when disengaged, would have enough travel to drop out of the way, or far enough out of the way, that little to no forces would be exerted on the belt.
 
RunRight? Tensioner Devices - Lovejoy - a Timken company

plus rig up a linkage that when the idle pulley is disengaged, a braking force is applied to a drum mounted to the band drive wheel shaft.

I'm just trying to get ideas on how to engage/disengage the band drive wheel, w/o designing a pivoting mount for the eng, like the WM system. an electrically actuated clutch is OUT of the question, at this time bc of cost ($1500-2000).
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

doc henderson

I wonder if people are thinking lovejoy means two couplers with a rubber insert like lovejoy couplers.  If the circumference of the idler is 1/2 that of the drive, it will double the rpm's, so see if there is a rating, and under more load will generate more heat.  in your drawing, the setup looks like a cam style mechanism.  I may check to see what TK wants for the electric clutch.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

charles mann

i contacted TK about buying an electric clutch, and they said they don't sell to non tk owners. 

drive meaning off the eng, or dive meaning pulley at band drive wheel shaft? 

yes, it will kinda cam over, and if it will work, i will put a stop, where it can't any further towards the engagement, but yet can't fall out of engagement either. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Southside

Which way is your band turning in that photo?  I don't know if it makes a difference but on both my WM's the tensioner is on the opposite side of the belt and the band would be traveling counter clockwise standing from the front looking at the teeth first, left to right in that photo.  So the tension is on the "push" side of the drive wheel the drive wheel, if that makes sense.  There is not much wrap around the wheel at all.  I can get a photo of it in the morning if that helps.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

doc henderson

I will still check, but surely they can be sourced cheaper than they sell them.  my belt therefore does not have a tensioning pulley, but my belt does kind of eave up and down.  would almost be nice to calm it down and lift it up a bit.  i will try to remember in am to at least get a price, and what ever other info I can get.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

doc henderson

my belt is double v belt bx with the cogs to help it wrap around smaller pulleys.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

redbeard

 
 Here's how the Hud-Son 60 idler is set up with the electric clutch.

Whidbey Woodworks and Custom Milling  2019 Cooks AC 3662T High production band mill and a Hud-son 60 Diesel wide cut bandmill  JD 2240 50hp Tractor with 145 loader IR 1044 all terrain fork lift  Cooks sharp

charles mann

southside, direction, if mem serves correct, the few times i started my eng, and facing it with the radiator to the rear, the direction would be CW, looking at the teeth of the blade, and back of eng.
which means, if that is the case, my driving band wheel will have to be on the left side, looking at the teeth, along with my back stops. i would say i would have my wife go bump the eng over, but i think 1 of the 2 starter solenoid is having an issue, or i have a battery issue. i won't know direction till get hm next week.

doc, i contacted someone on here that has a tk and he gave me the name of the clutch manufacturer, and they are a PAIN to deal with, well, their stateside retailers. i think the manufacturer is ogura, a japanese company. i did find another manufacturer, which has a dallas and houston office, and I'm located in between them both, but their clutches were nearly $2000, and the input shaft splines for the clutch size i need, were that of a tractor pto style.

so yes, something similar to redbeard's setup, but lets just say for the sakes of argument, the lower pulley would be mounted on a cam over lever, with, or could be w/o, a love joy. 
it would be much easier to adjust belt tension, by adjustment on the pulley, than trying to shift a 700#+ eng. 

and redbeard, what brand clutch do you have? gas or diesel eng? if diesel, how much hp?
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Southside

On my 70 the engine does not move, the idler moves. I have to go check a couple calves, will take a picture on the way back up in a few minutes and post it.
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

doc henderson

my salesman can at least tell me there price,  My belt driving the band wheel is tensioned by moving the motor, but engaged by the 12 volt clutch.  If cheap enough, I can see what they will do.  I know they to not let people get their "ideas" to build their own.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Southside

Here is the pulley. The aparatus on the right is the brake linkage. At the top, left of the second photo behind the pulley you can make out an orange shaft.

The pulley is actuated via a linear shaft on a cam on the opposite side of the back wall, this shaft rotates to engage the pulley and becomes the clutch. When the pulley retracts it applies pressure to the brake linkage and stops the drive wheel.

Hope this helps.



 



 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

charles mann

southside, yes sir. i get the idea, and something similar is what i will build, but for now, it will be manual, instead of electric. eventually, i will upgrade to a linear actuator, that when the rabbit switch is flipped, the actuator engage too, and put a microswitch in the ram, that when about half the required tension is applied, the eng high idles. that way, its not a drastic surge on the drive system. its just finding an actuator that moves fast enough, yet has a short stroke. something within around 1-2 sec, it is fully extended. 

are those a 2 or 3 groove drive belt? I'm assuming the belts are banded. if so, do they have a crown or are they flat? 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Woodpecker52

The drive belts as well as wheel belts are flat.  Go to woodmizer site to see a lot of different parts, also online to look at parts manual of how they operate.
Woodmizer LT-15, Ross Pony #1 planner, Ford 2600 tractor, Stihl chainsaws, Kubota rtv900 Kubota L3830F tractor

redbeard

The belts are new due too heavy wear they lasted 100 hrs. Took this pic before I changed them out.
The throttle for the 34 hp Kabota Diesel is electric and has a 3-4 sec delay before it revs up so you have to time the two switches just right too get a nice even engagement. If you engage at idle it will kill the Diesel sometimes so with throttling it up as you engage clutch it's alot smoother.
Learning curve put alot of wear on original belts. I paid a bit more and got industrial belts .
I actually would prefer a manual engaging lever over electric clutch.
Mainly the torque it takes too get the 30" wheels and 22' band blade spinning is alot, you need some rpms as you engage the elect clutch .
I will look for model# on the clutch.
Whidbey Woodworks and Custom Milling  2019 Cooks AC 3662T High production band mill and a Hud-son 60 Diesel wide cut bandmill  JD 2240 50hp Tractor with 145 loader IR 1044 all terrain fork lift  Cooks sharp

Southside

The belt is a triple, about $140 from Wood-Mizer
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

tacks Y

Mr Mann, I would think you need your engagement pulleyon the side with no pull. So engine is pulling on one side as it works to rotate blade. I think this was what someone was telling you. 

mike_belben

Id want the drive sheave to be pulling the  belt over the top or bottom of the driven pulleys and idler taking up slack on the opposite side.  Let the working end stay straight and with maximum sheave wrap.  If it dances duen to length put some stationary skateboard wheels to just barely straighten it out.  The dancing is usually bent shafts or untrue pulleys btw.

I would skip expensive, electric and complicated parts/design and go straight for a basic hand operated lever that pivots the idler into the slacked belt, so that i could modulate engagement by hand rather than fool with needless actuators and the systems to run them.  For fancy, id make the engagement handle swing up and lock in to engage the belt and swing down to disengage, where pulling further down on the handle tugged a rubber pad friction brake into the bandsaw input pulley to stop it.  Probably using a simple wire cable and some pulley routing to tug on another cantilevered shaft with a hunk of truck tire bolted to it.

Every truck and machine i fix at work goes down mostly over little electrical doodad stuff.  My bare bones spartan old junk never has these issues.  If you make this thing too complicated and full of specialty parts youll be building/fixing it forever instead of sawing.
Praise The Lord

charles mann

mike, that is my thoughts too on location of idler pulley. since i dont even have the saw beam attached to the carriage, let alone, the motor mounted to the beam, location for anything is an unk at this time. i want to make sure putting a flat idler pulley to tension the belt/s wont damage the belt/s. now its just finding a pulley. 

southside, can you get a part number for the idler pulley? 

woodpecker, the online parts catalog doesnt have an ipc, just common replacement parts and whatnots. at least not that iv found. and iv been all over that site. am i missing something? 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

doc henderson

Morning Charles. I spoke to TK.  They do not sell the clutch to non owners due to liability.  But my cost would be 510$ and he thought you could get one on ebay.  aguru  or something like that.  In case that simplifies your life.  I agree that mechanical may be simple but as you can see, you are now an engineer, and may be modifying it over time as well.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

charles mann

Quote from: doc henderson on January 30, 2019, 11:03:26 AM
Morning Charles. I spoke to TK.  They do not sell the clutch to non owners due to liability.  But my cost would be 510$ and he thought you could get one on ebay.  aguru  or something like that.  In case that simplifies your life.  I agree that mechanical may be simple but as you can see, you are now an engineer, and may be modifying it over time as well.
ogura, a japanese company, with GREAT product reviews, but CRAPY retailers. could only find a canadian outfit, that i could never get on the phone. 
what part # is the clutch? i can look it up on the ogura pdf parts catalog i have and see if it will work for a future upgrade. i think iv got the idler pulley debacle siphered out to get me up and going, and if it works out, stay with it. but it never hurts to have something in the back pocket in case i need it. 
Thanks Doc.  
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

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