solubor liquid

[farmfromkansas]

Went to a crop meeting yesterday, featured Winfield United, put on by the local Coop,  and I asked the speaker after the meeting if they had Solubor.  He asked another guy who said they did have it, and the coop guy from another branch said they could get me another product that is in liquid form, which would work better in a sprayer, as the stuff would not settle out.  Did not get the name of the stuff, but they are to get me a box.  Asked earlier at the local branch and they were not familiar with solubor, so took the opportunity at this meeting.  There was a lot of talk about micro nutrients, and seems boron is needed on our farms, along with N, P, and K, along with a lot of other micro nutrients.  Will post the name of this product when I get the box.

[Southside]

Interesting. I would like to know the concentration if you find out. It is a good amendment for any oil seed crop. 

[Don P]

Our soil tests are back for this year and we can still use boron which means I'm still safe using borated planer shavings in the garden. With solubor I know its pure DOT, from memory the assay is 98% DOT and 2% H₂O. With the product you are getting I would check the MSDS and find out what the other chemicals are then check the MSDS's on them to make sure it is something you are comfortable with from cradle to grave in your operations. We are using these chemicals off label and when doing so it isn't the chemical you are wanting that is the problem, it is the other chemicals in the mix that can be the problem. With Solubor I know it is chemically identical to TimBor, which is listed for this use. The assay, the MSDS's and the CAS numbers are the same.

[farmfromkansas]

Thanks, will look at the label before using the stuff.

[WDH]

The liquid that I looked into was a solution of 10% boron.  My brother is a chemical and crop specialist, and he said that to get the same concentration of boron as one pound of solubor to one gallon of water (the powderpost beetle preventative concentration), you would need to mix 28 ounces of the 10% liquid boron to one gallon of water. 

The reason that I did not use it was that the 10% liquid boron cost a good bit more per gallon of mixed spray solution than the same amount of spray made with the solubor powder.  So, I have stuck with the solubor powder.  If you mix the solubor powder in water a day or two ahead before you use it, it will almost all dissolve into the water.  So, I just plan ahead a little bit and save the difference on the cost of the chemical. 

[Southside]

I mix mine into a back pack, pump sprayer, that has an agitation paddle.  Got it at Lowes, has a Husky logo on it, $80 or so.  Works really well, dump in the powder, put in the water, and work the handle up and down as you spray, adds air pressure and the paddle mixes in one step.  

[caveman]

Y'all probably know this but the Solubor dissolves pretty well in hot water.  Several years ago I added a hot water spigot on the outside of my shop.  It comes in handy dissolving Solubor and when using the pressure washer on certain projects (not hot enough to damage the pump).

[farmfromkansas]

Thanks for all the replies.  Plan to use an ATV sprayer, thanks for the tip about the hot water.  Was thinking the powder would fall out of the mixture, and the liquid would stay in suspension.  Will have to drop by the coop and ask about the details.

[WDH]

Once the powder dissolves, it does not drop out of suspension. 

[Don P]

Danny, this will probably take your brother's input. My understanding is that at 1lb/gallon solubor/water it is a 10% saturated solution. At higher concentration it is a super saturated solution. The warmer the water the more solubor the solution can hold, and hot water does help me with dissolving it, I usually stir, wait and stir until the solution goes clear then apply, often this is just 10-15 minutes between mixing and starting. I've learned to use everything I mix. For one thing the temperature of the solution drops, my mix ratios are not exact so I'm sure I get into the super saturatd range more often than not. I usually also add a few drops of Dawn to help it wet out. If I try to store it for any length of time it usually precipitates and forms a rock candy sludge or crystallized layer at the bottom of the pail, or if I don't clean a sprayer very well it forms inside the sprayer.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

There are many boron and borate based chemicals. The are naturally occurring minerals that protect wood from fungus, termites, and other wood-decomposing organisms. Borate wood preservatives are comprised of disodium octoborate tetrahydrate.so, always make sure that this is the chemical you have.

[farmfromkansas]

Dropped by the coop this morning, asked about the solubor, was informed they do not buy the power, only the liquid.  Once they get it in, will check on the chemical on label.

[WDH]

This is what I use.  It is 98% disodium octaborate tetrahydrate. 

Solubor DF 20% Boron

[farmfromkansas]

Coop informed me a bag of solubor is on the way.  Could someone tell me if I can use a measuring cup rather than a scale to measure out the powder per gallon?

[WDH]

I use a plastic scoop.  Turns out that one full scoop of my scoop of powder is one pound, so one heaping scoop per gallon of water.  

[farmfromkansas]

Thanks, guess I will have to go to the coop with the measuring cup and the powder, and experiment to find how much powder to the gallon.  But one pound per gallon, sounds good.

[scsmith42]

I can't speak about solubor, but I know that when using a 15% solution of Timbor in hot water, if I have extra mix and it sits and cools off overnight, it will separate.

Danny, how does your price of solubor compare with Timbor?  I'm paying around $4.00 per pound for Timbor powder delivered and I use it at a rate of 1.5 lbs per gallon.

[Don P]

I'm paying about $2/lb for Solubor, which is what Ron is selling it for in Danny's post above. I got a kick out of that link, Michelle was up there this week picking up garden supplies.

I weigh out a pound on her scale in whatever plastic container is handy and mark the line then use that as my measuring scoop. Other times I just approximate, which tends to be higher concentration.

[farmfromkansas]

The coop said about 40$ for a 50 lb bag of solubor. There may be freight involved, with a 1 bag purchase, have not received it yet.

[scsmith42]

At those prices it sounds like I need to ditch Timber for Solubor!

[WDH]

I just ordered a whack of 50# bags and I believe that it will cost $80 for each 50# bag.  Never heard it available for as low as $40 a bag.  BTW, I will be bringing over some 50# bags to the Project at Jake's for someone and will probable have a couple of extra bags if someone who will be there wants one. 

[Don P]

That's about what I was paying until not too long ago (you know how that memory works :D) Then it basically doubled, seems like overnight. Some of the other brands do come in #25's.

[scsmith42]

I just ordered a whack of 50# bags and I believe that it will cost $80 for each 50# bag.  Never heard it available for as low as $40 a bag.  BTW, I will be bringing over some 50# bags to the Project at Jake's for someone and will probable have a couple of extra bags if someone who will be there wants one.

Danny, I'd love to get one of those bags; thanks for the offer.  My local stores don't stock it.

[WDH]

OK.

[stanwelch]

Danny,  if you have an extra bag, I could use one. Thanks

[WDH]

Yes Sir.  

[Sixacresand]

The local farm supply store orders it for me when I need it.  

[farmfromkansas]

Coop finally had a bag this morning when I went down there.  Still not sure about the price.  Have to wait till they get the bill from their supplier.  Brand name is 20 mule team borax.  

[Southside]

I don't think there is another brand name out there.  

[Ianab]

Solubor and 20 Mule are both brands of Borax. The Solubor is probably better because it's formulation gives the most dissolved Boron possible in the water, and it's small particles dissolve easier. It's designed to be added to hydroponics systems and liquid fertiliser to provide trace amounts of Boron.

20 Mule is just regular borax, usually sold as a cleaning product (It's now made by Dial, the soap company). It will work, even if your solution has slightly less boron, and you have to stir it more. 

Either way, both give you borate you can spray on wood to deter bugs. 

[doc henderson]

so if the borates protect from fungus and termites, what do the copper containing chemicals protect wood from, like in pressure treating.  I know that nothing is as good as pressure treating the wood for decay resistance, but is it better than nothing to soak post bottoms?  I think the borates wash away easily.  I am sure it is expensive and hard to find, so do not want to waste money if of no benefit.  thanks.  @GeneWengert-WoodDoc  @WDH  @Ianab   practically speaking is the solubor/timbor for spraying fresh milled green wood to protect it while it dries?  In what situation and species are you using it.  I assume not on all milled wood.

[Ianab]

Copper is even more toxic to fungus and bacteria, and isn't as water soluble. Throw come Chromium and Arsenic in the mix and it wont rot, but tends to be a bit toxic to people as well.  

So Borate treated is OK if the wood stays dry. If it's subject to weather the borate eventually washes out. 

Locally you buy pressure treated grade H1.2 and it's just borate (under pressure). Fine for inside use as the bugs wont touch it, but not out in the weather or ground contact. The grades go up from there till you get to stuff that's rated 50 years in salt water. Don't start licking that stuff, it's practically dripping metallic salts. 

[WDH]

I treat hardwood lumber off the mill for lyctid powderpost beetle.  This is the beetle that is most worrisome in hardwood as it infects hardwoods in the 20% moisture content range and below.  Ambrosia beetles, which are more common, cannot survive once the lumber dries and therefore is of no consequence in dry hardwood lumber.

The female powderpost beetle lays an egg on a drying or dry hardwood board, and the larvae hatch and chew/burrow into the wood by traversing the vessel elements (called pores or water transporting cells) and begin their life cycle.  They can be in the wood for several or more years before any evidence of their presence is noticed.  Once mature, they bore out and seek a mate to start the life cycle over again.  When they bore out, they leave neat little piles of mixed sawdust and beetle feces called frass.  Powderpost beetle tunnels are clogged and filled with this frass.  This is not what you want to see in or on your lumber. Their tunnels ruin the appearance and strength of the wood.  When the adults bore out and leave your board, they will re-infest the same board or other candidate boards in the vicinity.

The borate is sprayed on all surfaces of green hardwood lumbers.  It soaks into the wood thereby creating a barrier layer to thwart and kill the very small larvae and shut them out from the very beginning.  As long as the board is not repeatedly saturated with water like rainfall, the borate will remain in the wood and provide long term protection.  However, once the larvae are in the wood and you spray it after the infestation, the normal concentration of borate will not penetrate deep enough to kill the developing beetles.  When the adults hatch and bore out, they will consume the borate at the surface of the wood and the infestation is halted.  The original infested boards, though, will still be ruined. 

The beetles seem to prefer the coarse grained woods with the larger pores making it easier for the larvae to burrow deep into the wood.  These are the ring porous hardwood species like all the oaks, hickory, elm, pecan, ash, etc.  The beetles will also infest the smaller pored diffuse porous hardwood too like cherry, yellow poplar, birch, maple, etc.  But, the beetles seem to prefer the larger pored woods.  In most cases, the infestation is limited to the sapwood where the sugars that they feed on are located.  Fortunately, this lyctid powderpost beetle does not infest softwoods like pine, so no borate spray is needed for green pine.  If you are treating for termites, that is another story.

[farmfromkansas]

Woods I have had the most problems with are hackberry and ash, mullberry, even hedge, or osage orange and locust. Have not sawed the cypress logs yet, assume they would need to be sprayed as well. The brown wood in walnut seems to be immune.

[doc henderson]

So Danny, I just made my first pallets and that is why I ask.  so I guess I should spray my pallets.  Is there something better for the bases that will be set on concrete, and I worry that the bottoms may remain moist for periods of time.  the green copper containing stuff sounds interesting, but maybe it is advertising and my eye seeing green as rot resistant after years of seeing pressure treated lumber.  there is also a newer pressure treated wood I used in Co. building a bridge, and it was reddish brown.

[doc henderson]

Does the borate go into the wood enough that it could be top coated to protect the borate from washing off?  or can it be added to a spar urethan as an example, to help maintain that barrier?  @WDH  does soaking help pernitrate.  I even wondered about making a vacuum chamber to adapt to say a 4 x 4 and pull a vacuum and then release borate liquids into the chamber to be pulled in as the vacuum is released.    I am busy, but occasionally let my mind wonder!  I know the tubes in the wood can be maintained.  When I did research at KU, we measured the tension inside a plant using a tool nicknamed "the bomb"  to measure the pressure needed to push sap out the bottom of a stem looking at water stress and plant adaptation.  Dr. Craig Martin told me "we are gonna rip plant physiologist a new EDITED BY ADMIN"  but we had a neg. result! :D :D :D

[doc henderson]

 

 

[Don P]

"Washing away" is not really the best way to think about how borate moves in wood and leads to a common misunderstanding of how it performs.

"Diffusion is the net movement of anything from a region of higher concentration to a region of lower concentration. Diffusion is driven by a gradient in concentration."

Borates typically move through wood that is above fiber saturation point by diffusion. What this means is that if you have successfully gotten borate to diffuse into the wood by saturating it well while it is above FSP it will only diffuse back out of cells if they are again above the FSP and there is a "sink" for them to diffuse into. So a post in contact with the wet ground will likely rise above FSP and the soil provides a sink for the borate to diffuse into, the borate will move from the wood at higher concentration to the soil until they reach a uniform concentration. However, even there the utilities have found that a borate bandage at ground level is often worthwhile.

Casual wetting of above ground wood probably isn't going to raise the moisture content of the wood to the FSP so this is where the concept of washing away falls apart. Assuming you did a decent job of building up a "bank" of borate just under the surface of the wood, if the surface is wetted and loses some of its borate the cells just below that are now at a higher concentration and as they saturate the borate will become mobile and diffuse toward that depleted surface. That is the happy part of leachability. In a bankrupt apartment complex where the units were framed but uncovered for 3 years out in the weather, the levels of borate in the wood were still sufficient to do their job. Casual wetting isn't that big of a problem. When using it on siding or above ground exposed wood the application of a water repelling top coat pretty much solves that issue altogether. Railroad ties that are borated and then creosoted perform better than either treatment alone, that is what is going on. The borate goes to the bone even in hard to penetrate species, the creosote provides the water repellency and surface protection.

Vacuum and pressure are ways of getting it in deeper as is dipping. I have a dip tray that I've used quite a bit, I need to build a third one, it's about worn out. Ive seen tanks at several log home companies that they dip bundles of logs in. Mixing it with your finish will not let it penetrate into the wood, it will also probably cloud the finish. My pallets are pretty well borated, I've used a heavy nap roller and borated lumber on them as I stack as well.

Beau-ron is another form of DOT that I've gotten here, that is from Drexel, there are several other sources.

[WDH]

Woods I have had the most problems with are hackberry and ash, mullberry, even hedge, or osage orange and locust. Have not sawed the cypress logs yet, assume they would need to be sprayed as well.

The hardwoods mentioned are all ring porous with the large earlywood pores.
Cypress is a softwood so the lyctid powderpost beetles do not infest it.  Cypress does not need to be sprayed to protect from these powderpost beetles.
Doc, woods with a finish like spar urethane are poor candidates for the beetles.  The finish provides a film that the tiny larvae do not penetrate.  Once a wood is dry, planed, and finished with poly, varnish, etc., the potential for powderpost infestation is very negligible.  The problem is having them in the wood before planing and finishing.  Then the adults will hatch and bore out, but it is unlikely they will reinvest the board or other boards with the finish applied to them. 


 
A WORD OF WARNING ABOUT SELLING AIR DRIED RING POROUS HARDWOOD LUMBER TO THE PUBLIC.  It would be very prudent to develop a disclaimer as to the absence or presence of lyctid powderpost beetles in non-borated treated air dried hardwood.
 
This red oak wainscott v-groove was installed in my bathroom in early 2013 before I got my kiln.  It was air dried to 13% under a shed, pre-planed to 7/8", stickered inside my house for 5 months From April to August.  It was not sprayed with borate.  Initial M% going in house was 13.5%.  Equilibrated to 9% through the Summer inside my air conditioned house.  Machined into v-groove in the Fall of 2013.  Sanded and finished with several coats of satin polyurehtane.  From the pic, you can see the sawdust and frass on the little table from the exit of an adult powderpost beetle.  All in all, I found about 6 of these little piles of sawdust.  I was sitting in the bathroom "doing my business" when I noticed this.  The date of the picture was March 15, 2018!!!  Almost 5 years from when I installed it, adult powderpost bettles bored out. 

Selling green lumber to the public is safe as the green wood is not dry enough for powderpost beetle infestation.  Selling dried lumber that has not has been pre-sprayed with borate while green or either not sterilized with heat in a kiln carries risk of powderpost beetles being in that lumber. In Middle Georgia, that risk is a significant one. 

[doc henderson]

I guess I am also thinking about the wood in contact with concrete or soil that remains most and begins to rot.  is that all fungal, or is there a bacterial component, and if so what can stop it.  is the copper better than the borate stuff.  sounds like it can be painted on.  thinking about the bottom of my skids on the pallet.

[doc henderson]

Maybe at Jakes (if I get to go)  we can do this as a side topic.  best to apply while green? so it stops it as well to migrate into the wood!?  how wet to apply it meaning what dose to wood, how do you practically get all sides,  before stickering?
I know the bottom plate on concrete has to be treated.

[samandothers]

Danny,
If hardwood was cut and air dried then sprayed/rolled with Solubor mixture and kept in the dry will this deter the adults from boring the wood?  

[WDH]

That would work as long as the beetles had not already infested the air dried lumber before it was sprayed.  As far as I know, there is no way to tell when the female beetles have laid eggs on the lumber and if the larvae have hatched and worked their way into the wood.  It would certainly deter any future infestation of that lumber. 

[doc henderson]

it was stated that the lumber should be green so a aqueous milieu exists where a concentration gradient can exist, and the boric acid can migrate in.  how much do you spray on the wood.  just a misting, or wet it well, all sides. is the copper stuff better or worse in any way.  sounds like you can roll it on.

[Don P]

Dripping wet, to the point of runoff, all sides with a 10-15% solution which is 1-1.5 lbs per gallon/ H2O. This ain't fancy French perfume, get it saturated, lots of it. A few drops of dish soap helps break the surface tension so it wets out better. DOT is actually borax+boric acid. If applied to dry wood mix it with up to 50% of a glycol which is very slow drying so helps with deeper penetration, look up the MSDS's for TimBor vs Bora-Care. (I've had to treat old buildings for instance, in one case I kept a log cabin wet for 30 days using 2 sprays a day for a month, I finally used a syringe on the few remaining active holes, that historic structure was et up with them.) I'm not sure if the Viking ship Vasa is still being PEGged and borated, its been going on for years trying to stabilize it. Read up on borate and dip diffusion on the USFPL website for more third party info on all this, lots there.

What we are talking about here is protecting our sawn lumber from infestation. In a situation that calls for treated lumber you are not going to get the kind of protection in any of these home applied methods compared to treated lumber. Not all treatment is the same, look up "Use Categories" for treated wood and learn to read the tags UC numbers, most of the stuff sold at the big box is not very well treated, generally above ground non ground contact use. I have to specify and often special order heavy treatment for ground contact or foundation uses. Our paint on or spray on's are not the same as pressure treatment. If it is important or hard to replace factor that into these decisions.

[farmfromkansas]

Doc might consider using concrete blocks under his pallets on the ground, they are hollow so if you put the block with the hollow part on the ground, maybe with a flat board under, to keep the concrete block from pushing into the ground, would help keep his pallets dry.  Forgot to mention elm, cut up a big tree, and the entire pile collected PPB, and tried to get it hot enough to kill the bugs by putting it in a old metal grainery, just too much wood, not enough heat.

[farmfromkansas]

Could someone post how much RV antifreeze per gallon of mix, to slow the drying of the solubor?

[doc henderson]

great info and ideas guys.  I am in the process of pouring 4.5 foot wide sidewalks along the retaining wall that separates family area, from Dad/Man area.  the pallets will set on the concrete with a 1/4 inch slope over the width for run off.  It will be stamped to look like wood, so some ridges and valley to set on.  if no soil,rot should not be as bad.  I was worried about the wood on concrete for month and constant dampness.  so as much mold and bacteria worries as infestation.  so you spray before you sticker.  cannot see achieving the saturation you speak of just randomly spraying a whole pallet full of wood

[WDH]

Yes, you spray before your sticker.  I stack boards one on top of the other as they come off the mill in a single  tall stack as high as I can go before the danger of tipping over becomes too great.  This way, you can spray all the edges of all the boards on both sides all at the same time.  Then spread them out flat in a single long horizontal row, spray one side, flip, spray the other, then sticker.  It is a pain, but powderpost beetles are a bigger pain. 

[Don P]

Danny beat me to it while I was typing slow.

It is a layer by layer process, do one side, flip the boards and do the other. Hit the edges while flipping. I've pretty much given up on sprayers whenever possible and either dip or roll. The house I'm working on will get sprayed down in the next week or two, prior to letting the trades in, don't want to wet wiring. BTW it is not corrosive to metal.

Glycol is expensive. Bora-Care is 50% ethylene glycol replacing that much water. One of the other brands uses propylene glycol, another uses polyethylene glycol, all are slow drying alcohols. Being cheap I gauge the drying conditions. If its a slow drying day I use less, if it is hot, low humidity and in the sun and breeze it takes more. I usually mix in 5 gallon batches unless filling the dip tank. When I need to add glycol I usually add 1/2 to 1 gallon per batch so I'm a good bit leaner than Bora-Care. If the wood is green don't waste the money on glycol, that is only needed for old work. I'm not sure how it does with mold and bacteria, bugs and decay fungi have been more my focus. I've never used straight borax so not sure how it will perform. One side note, ppb's are feeding on starch rather than sugar from what I've read. They are both carbs present in the wood so not sure that it really matters.

[scsmith42]

What Don and Danny said.

I'll add that it's best to let the surface dry a bit before stickering, else the stickers may get wet and you'll end up with sticker stain.

The fastest / easiest way that I've found to apply it is to use a modified backpack sprayer.  The modification is to replace the OEM sprayer wand with a handle from a pressure washer.  You can then use standard pressure washer tips in the handle and it really lays out a high volume, low pressure spray.

It's best not to leave the solution overnight in the pressure washer (at least for Timbor), as it may separate back out of the mix and you'll have a mess on your hands.

[Anderson]

BTW it is not corrosive to metal.

Don P thank you for this! I was going to post asking about a possible corrosive effect on metal, thinking about treating skip sheathing boards before putting roofing on.


Also I just wanted to post a picture of the brand of Boron fertilizer I have been getting after trying to find Solubor without any luck. Maybe it might help someone find something to protect their wood with. I last bought some about 2 years ago, if memory serves I think I paid about $30-32 a bag?

Thanks to everyone posting their experience and advice in this thread! Lot's of excellent information. I will be bookmarking and referring back to this one for sure! :P

[Anderson]

 

 

[Southside]

Where do you get that? Had not seen that brand.

[Anderson]

I got it in Weyers Cave Va. From Houff feed and Fertilizer. They were super friendly and helpful,and very willing to sell me just 2 bags even though it looked like they normally sell tractor trailer loads :D   

Hopefully it's ok to put their contact information here?

Phone: 540-234-9246
Fax: 540-234-9318
Houff Corporation
97 Railside Drive
Weyers Cave, VA 24486

[farmfromkansas]

What did you have to pay for yours?

[Anderson]

Somewhere around $30 a bag. About 2 years ago.

[WDH]

50 pound bags of solubor run me $80. 

[caveman]

It is not my intention to derail the thread but for those of you who use some form of DOT to treat your green wood how do you convince customers that it is not harmful?   I have read the MDS (formally MSDS) but the hardwood lumber outlet that consigns some of our wood is opposed to selling wood that has been sprayed with DOT.  

If we do not spray it before it goes in the air drying stacks we get considerably more bug defects.  We built the hot box but that adds an extra, time consuming step and it does not remove bug holes/damage.

The soluble boron that we purchased was in 25 lb. bags and cost around $40 a bag.  We got ours from Harrell's Fertilizer.

[farmfromkansas]

Finally got the bill from the Coop, they saved up and billed it all at once, everything for about 4 months.  The solubor was 79.50 for 50 lbs.

[samandothers]

@Don P, @WDH or others do you have a thread on your dip tanks or pictures of them?  I was wondering about framing something from wood and lining with a plastic to create a dip tank.

I was going to order some of the Solubor from Danny's link and thought wonder how much shipping will run.  When I looked at the address I was pleasantly surprised, jaw dropped.  This place is about 7 miles from our place in Va.!

[Don P]

Sounds like you are getting it from Ron at 7 Springs.
I don't have a picture and my last one is in the middle of a burn pile after goodness, about a decade of abuse. I've made a few over the years just using board sides and a plywood bottom. Subfloor glue and lots of fasteners, cleats and more glue at the bottom seams, caulk the inside and paint. Drill a drain hole near the bottom of one end piece and plug with a dowel. Basically a plywood boat :D.

[samandothers]

Yep, 7 Springs.
Sounds like that trough will work!  I recon I could come up wood and glue!  Probably have a stopper from a bottle of some sort.  :D

[WDH]

I have a layout table that I spray boards on using a 25 gallon tank with a wand.  I have not used a dip tank.  Spraying ring porous hardwoods is a pain, but necessary. 

[Don P]

Most of the time with boards I use a heavy nap roller and as I sticker I'll roll one side, flip and roll the other, catching the edges as I go, then the next layer. With the trough I'll sink boards and put some old drake drums on them to submerge, then lift out and put sticks across the top of the trough to let them drip out a minute and repeat, slow. I really mostly use the trough when doing timbers. I'll rough out the mortises and tenons then soak, roll them to get it all if needed, drip out, let em dry a few days while doing others and then continue fitting. Doing locust for one job it made a very pretty yellow dye out of the water. I forgot one timber for probably about a week, that one will probably be under that barn till the cows come home :D
Don't forget a very little bit of dish soap will help break the surface tension and get it to flow on better, those little air bubbles that stick to the wood can be a pain otherwise. I also won't say just ring porous, poplar is one of their favorites here, well, and sweet birch too.

I've been emailing back and forth with a gentleman over in Giles Co, a covered bridge was blown down, he and his son are sawing and rebuilding. He checked over there yesterday, $89/bag which is what I last paid early this year.

[doc henderson]

@WDH can you define a ring porous hardwood and give example.  still trying to learn from the best!

[WDH]

Ring porous hardwoods have very large earlywood pores (first pores laid down in the Spring in a new growth ring) but then the pore size gets distinctly smaller in the latter part of the growing season.  So there are large pores in the first part of the growth ring transitioning to very small pores.  This differential in pore size creates a distinct strong "grain" when viewed on the face of a board.  Imagine the cathedrals on flatsawn oak or ash.  Common ring porous hardwoods are the oaks, ash, hickory, black locust, honeylocust, the elms, hackberry and a number of others.

In contrast, diffuse porous hardwoods only have small pores from the beginning of the growth ring to the end.  No large earlywood pores and no two very distinct pore sizes.  Diffuse porous hardwoods are the maples, yellow poplar, the aspens, birch, beech, willow, basswood, sweetgum and many others.  Because of pore uniformity, the "grain" on a board surface is not as distinct.  

Here is a link to a wood ID site that is the best when it comes to viewing the characteristics of a particular wood.  The first link describes black oak, a red oak, and you can see the two very distinctly different pore sizes in the growth ring on the end grain views.

black oak

A common diffuse porous hardwood is yellow poplar.  Here is a link to view diffuse porous pore arrangement, no significant difference in pore size across the growth ring.  

poplar

When IDing a particular wood, noting if it is ring porous or diffuse porous is a good way to eliminate a bunch of "what it is not" right off the bat.

[doc henderson]

ah ha!  thanks Danny!

[samandothers]

You note spraying ring porous hardwoods as being a pain.   Why are they worse than the diffuse porous?  Is it how it absorbs?  I am assuming you are spraying all hardwoods.

[farmfromkansas]

On walnut, you only need to spray the sap wood.  Have been told cottonwood is resistant to bug damage.  I know ash, locust, elm, hackberry and mullberry need to be sprayed to dry successfully.

[WDH]

Actually the "hard" part is just the mechanics and hassle of having to handle the boards to spray them.  I spray all the ring porous hardwoods because the pore structure, with the large earlywood pores, makes it easier for the tiny little PPB larvae to penetrate into the wood and begin doing their dirty deed.  I do not spray most of the diffuse porous hardwoods because I have had very little issues with them and PPB.  It also matters how long the wood sits on the stickers air drying.  If I plan to air dry down just to 20% then go into the kiln, I do not spray because the PPB's have had not enough time and the wood moisture content has not been low enough for long enough for them to get much of a foothold.  As I will sterilize the wood in the kiln, that takes care of the problem.

[samandothers]

Thanks Danny and others.

As we have discussed on this thread or another the tulip poplar I have cut is very popular with the PPB.   Sounds like a conservative approach will be to spray most all hardwoods I cut.  

[caveman]

Ambrosia beetles are coming out of some Paroda (Monkey Ear Tree) slabs we recently sawed and sprayed with DOT.  I took this picture a week or so ago.  Yesterday there were considerably more holes, dust and straws.  I did not notice any frass on the logs when we were sawing and the slabs were only dead stacked 2-3 days prior to spraying and sticker stacking.

The other hardwoods we have recently sawn and sprayed off of the mill show no Ambrosia beetle holes or evidence of infestation.  Do any of you have suggestions of what is going on?  The MC of these is still way north of 30% so they have a while before they will go into the kiln.



 
Normally we spray right off of the mill but the guy we sawed these for showed up with more logs and no money so we worked out a deal to keep some of the slabs to cover the cost of sawing the others.  This resulted in the few days delay in getting them sprayed.

[Don P]

The varmints are waking up here. It looks like they are hitting the sapwood, could edge that off and give the rest another really good high concentration soaking. Regular anti-freeze is more toxic and will help get it in deeper. Barring any of that you might try laying plastic down on bunks in the hot box, stack, wrap, and heat... trying to keep drying down but getting the heat to them. I've got no experience there just kicking ideas around.

[WDH]

They were already in there before you even sawed the logs.  I had that happen many times with pine that showed no evidence no ambrosia beetles when sawn, but the upon drying for a few days, the beetles leave because they do not like the drying wood and you see the little piles of sawdust.

[samandothers]

Ambrosia beetles have a taste for pine? 

[caveman]

I assumed that was what was going on, Danny, but wanted to hear it from the expert (s).  I found a few of them crawling around on the stack but I dropped the one that I was going to photo.  Thank you all for the quick responses.

These slabs would have almost no value with the sapwood trimmed off.  The better ones will be sold on consignment after they are dried.  I've only sawed this wood a few times and don't particularly enjoy it but it saws easy.  There is some chemical in the wood that makes me cough and the sawdust is about the consistency of coleslaw, which makes them cleanup of the mill a bit of a hassle.

Wet, it is heavy, and dry it seems about the weight of dry cypress.  It is soft too but folks snap it up because of its chocolate brown color.  

[WDH]

Ambrosia beetles love dead, dying, and freshly felled pine.  They cannot overcome the defenses (pith and resin) from a living, healthy pine.  You cut one down though, in the summer, and it is an ambrosia beetle magnet. 

[kantuckid]

How effective is Solubor (which I have already) when sprayed on EWP logs with bark mostly still on? 

[Old Greenhorn]

It worked for me, bark or no bark. But I didn't apply it until the little buggers had gotten a foot hold. It shut them up though.

[Don P]

It won't hurt anything and will help with bugs on the bark. It won't get to the wood through the bark.

[WDH]

Rain will wash it off so you have to keep the logs out of the rain.