I have hesitated to post this as it seems like a rant and since it has some critical comments on some of the sawmill sponsors of the forum I do not want it to run afoul of the PTB. I am looking for advise from any who want to offer as to their opinion. I have come up with somewhat of a plan but want to see what others say without going into any details of my plan as to how to proceed. I am going to be specifically vague on some details as I do not want to badmouth the companies on the forum and with too much detail it will become obvious who is whom.
Background
Without naming any individual sawmill company I will say that I have been looking at what I consider the three big names in hydraulic mills (arguably not the three big names that everyone else would come up with but that is my terminology) To keep this from becoming a bashing contest I will identify them only as companies X, Y, and Z.
I have been looking at and evaluating these mills for about a year trying to identify 1) my needs, 2) my wants, 3) what I expect from the company and the mill they sell/market, 4) the best mill for the value/price that meets my requirements without giving me more or less than what I have determined I want/need. I have not been in a rush and have actually wanted to put off the purchase until about this time-frame as my requirement for the mill is for the spring of 2014. Some companies have a longer lead time for delivery due to back orders and that is fine as I have the time at this point in the plan. I have talked to all three companies about general questions during the past year and actually was able to visit one of the companies.
Now the problem
I finally decided that I wanted to go with company X. I spent about a month talking with the sales guy about my specific needs and clarifying questions and what the company had and my options. I finally called to place the order and after about the first 20 words was told "if you do that you won't be able to have a mobile mill." My jaw dropped. I had been talking to them/him about an extension and a specific length for over a month in multiple telephone conversations and failed attempts at email clarifications. What happened in all the detailed conversations that previously occurred that they had not mentioned this before?
I really like company X and their mill and we went back to re-look at the requirements to see if the requirements could be modified. Answer NO. Scrap plan A, first choice; company X out of the running. I still believe they build the best mill. Just very disappointed in the sales process and information exchange that did not reveal the problem before I was trying to actually place the order.
On to plan B, Company Y and Z. Both great companies, both build great mills. Company Z has such stringent restrictions on what options can be had with extensions and when they can be added and what you cannot do if you get the extension that they were removed from the planning. Credit goes to the company that they verbally told me of the issue very quickly and while not obvious from their web site; information is on the web site which can rapidly cause a specific question to be asked that reveals the information.
The only company left is company Y. Builds good mill, and the extension issue is not a problem (very specific questions to verify that were asked multiple times over) Their mill seems to be the best mill that fits the requirements. Good mill, extension is removable if desired for mobile milling. (YEAH)
As I have these multiple conversations with the sales folks at company Y about what I want/need I am told "YOU DO NOT WANT THAT." I, of course, ask why they say that and they give me their rational. I can accept their opinion or discard it. Getting their opinion is a valuable resource as they know their mills the best. Of course one has to wonder why the company offers an option if they tell you that no one likes it and they strongly recommend you not buy it. I have even been told "YOU DO NOT WANT A DEBARKER" That was a new one on me. Everyone that I have talked to thinks a debarker is a great item and nearly a must have item.
Final Straw that got me to post this.
It seems that no one in the industry of mobile sawmills understands a thing about trailer tongue weight. While I may be more sensitive than most to the issue due to previous knowledge and experience, I would expect a question about trailer tongue weight would elicit a better response than "It pulls really well. You will not have a problem in that area." When repeatedly asked again about the tongue weight one company (X) say they do not know and can't find out. Another company (Y) tells me two different numbers. One answer is 500 pounds and one answer is over 1000 lbs tongue weight for the same mill. When pressed it is finally revealed that it is 1060 lbs (maybe???) As I ask more questions I am told "YOU ARE OVER THINKING IT"!
I am not over thinking anything. Vehicles have max tow weights and max tongue weights and there are standards as to the range percentage of total weight that should be on the tongue. Too little or too much both can be bad. Destroying the tow vehicle, losing control of the trailer are all problems that can occur if tongue weight is not correct and/or without weight distribution hitches. I was told again by company Y, "You won't be towing it that far what difference does it make?" How do they know how far I will or will not be towing it? They, for the second time tell me "YOU ARE OVER THINKING IT" as I try to get information on the location of the tongue jack and the breakaway box so that I can determine if I can mount the trailer part of an aftermarket weight distribution hitch on the pole tongue of the mill. I am on the verge of telling them to take a hike but they are now the best mill to meet my requirements. I can only think what a lawyer would do to a company if there was an accident and it came out the sales rep for the company told the customer what I have been told. Luckily I know enough to know better, but it is very frustrating trying to get to the bottom of it all.
Sorry about the long post and the somewhat rant. I put this under Sawmills and Milling as it had to do with the purchase of a mill.
Any ideas?
Can't comment on any of your problems finding a mill. Mostly because of only "hearing" about one side of the discussion. Can't say if you are right or wrong, or if X, Y or Z are either.
Communication is often where most of the problems are at, as we hear and interpret different things on both ends of the conversations.
Keep working to get to the bottom of what you want, how you want it, and when you want it.
It will happen, just don't get discouraged along the way.
And stop or slow down "OVER THINKING IT" ;D
Most mills are not that heavy tongue wise.. why not bring a scale and set the tongue on it and set X Y Z with real numbers and sleep well that night. :P
Instead of asking what the tongue weight is. why not ask what is the minimum requirement for a towing vehicle for the given mill? If you buy a new truck, I bet the salesman can tell you how many gears there are in the transmission, but I bet they can't tell you the ratio.
I'm not trying to be smart or funny one bit when I say what I am going to say. The honest truth, as I was reading your post, before you even brought it up, I thought, this guy is over thinking it.
I agree, the part where you're ready to order and then you're told you can't get what you thought you could would be frustrating. As far as the tongue weight issue......well, it sounds like you're way over thinking this. The sales people probably aren't the engineers who designed the mill.
I agree tongue weight can be a big deal but it also depends on the truck. When i pulled my mill with a quarter ton truck, the tail often wagged the dog and driving could be scary. When I got a one ton, i sometimes forgot it was back there!
Is adding a second axle an option? That really helped me with weight when I ordered my second mill.
Now that you've check with companies "X,Y and Z".....try " W.". :)
Quote from: Furu on October 05, 2013, 01:13:41 PM
Final Straw that got me to post this.
It seems that no one in the industry of mobile sawmills understands a thing about trailer tongue weight.
As I ask more questions I am told "YOU ARE OVER THINKING IT"!
I am not over thinking anything.
Yes you are.
But tongue weight is only one measure of a trailers stability and proper loading. For most trailers the load and its position has MUCH more to do with the stability and handling than the base trailer weight. But a saw mill IS NOT A TRAILER. A sawmill is TOWABLE EQUIPMENT and it has been designed to be appropriately balanced and stable for towing. A sawmill is not going to have cargo added and removed that may change its towing behaviors. It has one single configuration, and can be designed around that one configuration.
Most of the WM mills I've worked with are VERY VERY VERY light on tongue weight vs overall weight. If you've ever looked at one of the bigger WM's the axle isn't square to the main rail, and it pulls at an angle going down the road. But yet seems to pull just fine.
If you are going to apply conventional utility trailer load, balance, tongue weight etc... to a saw mill then you'll never find one you'll be willing to tow.
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on October 05, 2013, 03:37:12 PM
Now that you've check with companies "X,Y and Z".....try " W.". :)
If you have to think that hard on a new mill then you need to try at least one more company and it should be
W!
When I was looking for a new mill the thinking came down to which model adn i screwed that up my self even though i do blame the dealer good naturedly>
Go back to X and ask why it wouldn't be mobile. Then See if they can make it mobile,
Or go Option "M" ??
http://www.mightymitesawmills.com/bandsaw.html
DGDrls
I tend to over think things too. Tow weight and tongue weight are two completely different issues. As for tow weight, they all should be able to tell you the weight of the mill, as well as the weight of any extensions you wish to add. Tongue weight is usually adjustable. I added an extension to my mill and the tongue got lighter, so I just put more supplies on the front of the mill to compensate. I could have moved the axle back, but I liked the tongue lighter for when I want to move the mill by hand. I also know that I am towing the largest mill I want to tow behind my truck. Since I have almost 10K miles towing my mill, I think I have it figured out! Good luck in your search! Dan
WM tells you the towing weight of the trailer/sawmill. And I think it says on the ball hitch the tongue weight. I know on my mill it's less than 100 lbs, as I can easily pick up the mill and set it on the ball if I need to. And I have many times.
The mill is very balanced and will tow very well. I towed mine back from Upstate NY to the north shore of MA with a S10 pickup truck, in 1994. And I've towed it all over my state for many years, with many different vehicles. Pickups and SUV's.
I have a bed extension that I remove and can haul to job sites on another lumber delivery trailer. Set up on site and mill long stock.
Some bed extension, long ones, can be set up as a trailer as well. And can be towed to sites and setup there.
Good luck with your search..
Jim Rogers
Tongue weight depends where you park the saw head on the bed, unless the manuf. has a fixed rest point when transporting. Frank C.
FYI:
With my sawhead in the travel position, if I remember correctly, the tongue weight is 130 pounds!
I'm with Jeff- as I was reading your post, Fury, I was thinking "He is overthinking this." My Woodmizer mill has a fixed towing position for the head, and I would guess the tongue weight to be around 100 pounds. I'd actually prefer it had more tongue weight as it can get rocking around a bit fore and aft, but I think it is balanced to aid in set up. It is balanced so well that I tend to forget it is a 4000lb machine, one time I popped it off of the hitch when on a slight incline, the mill and gravity promptly worked together to mash my hand into the bumper of the tow vehicle :o.
Quote from: Furu on October 05, 2013, 01:13:41 PM
I have been looking at and evaluating these mills for about a year trying to identify 1) my needs, 2) my wants, 3) what I expect from the company and the mill they sell/market, 4) the best mill for the value/price that meets my requirements without giving me more or less than what I have determined I want/need.
Any ideas?
Why not share with us what your needs and wants are? You are saying that no one is able to perform to your criteria, but we don't get what they are. May be you have some very specialized piece of custom-built equipment in mind, that requires a lot of modifications from the original mill designs. Or....?
IMHO your not over thinking, I do agree and found myself doing just the same with my mill purchase. I understand this is a big purchase and why your beating yourself up. Good luck! Is there something I would have done different going back? Yup! Is it too late probably, I found it extremely difficult to achieve the exact specs I wanted from a single supplier, that is why we can modify after the purchase. The top mill suppliers each have great features, some better than others; again I say good luck to you...
Furu, It could be that you are deciding what your market will be before you develop your market.
You certainly do have the right to design your own sawmill and expect one of the major sawmill manufacturers to produce it if it falls within their scope of sawmill designs. I am sure that each of them have literally "run the gauntlet" when it comes to building sawmills. Since their warranty and reputation is at stake, then they should be expected to advise, in their opinion, what will work and what will not. They also have the option to simply decide that your expectations are not within their normal range of manufacture and refuse to build it. Hopefully you will reach an agreement with one of the manufacturers and be able to get exactly what you want.
I did go back and read your previous posts, especially about sawmill extensions.
you have every right to ask as many questions as you want. I mean its your hard earn money that you will be spending.I cant blame you one bit you have a need and wanting to buy equipment to meet that need. I have always been told if you don't ask the question you will never know the answer. I have seen that you will have some bios answers about things ,but that is everyones right to provide a opinion on a forum. I would go with the company that you feel your getting the best deal and the honest answers from.
Good replies everyone and good of you furu putting your concerns out there for all the sawyers to put there 2 cents in. Tongue weight is not too big a issue for the single Axel mills there very balanced. Double Axel might be a different story. Hauling the extension and being mobile is going to be time consuming on set up. Biggest problem will be ground area at mobile sights and support equipment. Glad you put your concerns out there.
When I said he is over thinking things, I meant specifically in regards to the tongue weight issue. And, lime redbeard said, bringing an extension with or even setting up a mill with one built in on a mobile site can pose some big challenges. I would think my LT40 with a 12' extension attached would be about 36' long (with the hitch).
Whether the salesman is the engineer that designed the mill you are looking at or not, he should be able to answer or get you the answer to any question you have about the mills he is trying to sell. Planning ahead isn't overthinking. A large investment for something that could only turn out to be a hobby should be overthought again & again. Sounds like your on the right track to get what you want but sounds like the salesmen could do some checking & passing you the info you are trying to get instead of trying to sell you the mill & options they want you to have along with a dream of being a thriving sawmill business just from buying what he's selling. Good luck on getting what you want.
I can't offer any thoughts other than the fact that with my LT70 I can lift the tongue of the mill to hook it up. The tongue weight is less than 150 LBS and that should be well with in any tow vehicle spec. I have not towed any other mills so can't offer any info on them.
By all means get your question answered or you won't be happy later. Its your hard earned dollars.
I bought a new mill this year and not been happy with the customer service. It was weeks late getting here shipping was a disaster, had to make a repair even before cutting my first board. I could go on.
If they really want your business they will get the answers
Good luck
I've done some trailer design in the past and I know about the recommended weight distribution. So I was a little surprised to learn that I could lift the hitch end of a 3500 pound sawmill. However, another mill owner assured me that they towed like a dream and he was right :).
There's a few things that let them get away with a much lighter tongue load.
- The trailer wheels are much further back from the hitch than you would see with a load-carrying trailer.
- A high proportion of the weight (e.g., the entire saw head and motor) is concentrated close to the axle.
- The mills I've seen have a single axle which means they will easily follow the towing vehicle. A dual axle trailer "wants" to go where it's pointing and will try to steer the truck.
- Unlike a load-carrying trailer, the sawmill manufacturer has complete control over the weight distribution. For example, the axle on my manual mill was a couple of inches off from the axle on my hydraulic mill.
In this case I'd tend to trust a reputable mobile mill manufacturer to get it right. Of course that doesn't justify blowing you off or downplaying your concerns.
I'm not sure you are over-thinking things. It IS a big investment and whether anybody else thinks tounge weight matters or not, you SHOULD be able to get the information you want or need from the manufacturer. If nothing else, as somebody mentioned, the manufacturer should be able to put a scale under the hitch to get a number, assuming they have one around to weigh, which in all reality might be the reason the number seems to be so elusive.
I don't know the exact number on my mill, but I CAN lift it with some effort so it's certainly under 200lbs. which is the max load that the little Ford Ranger is specified to handle on the bumper.
OK. Years of loading and building trailers and a sawmill, I say that tongue weight should hover around 100# or 45.45 Kilos. IF you have back problems, install a trailer tongue crank up jack with caster wheel. Our slightly offset mill axle had to keep the extra wide sawhead out of the other lane of traffic AND not knock people off the curb as we towed it. We hauled that thing over 1000's of miles, without excessive tire wear OR being stopped by the traffic fuzz. :D
A sawmill extension only needs to be a table of sorts, for the most part. It could be built light enough to have pneumatic wheels that allow for moving around. Build a few rollers into it, instead of a solid table. The MILL will handle nearly all the weight of the log/cant. Whatever mill you buy, just figure a way to align the extension with the mill main frame (s). We hauled 2 -10" roller sets with us, strapped down as close to balance as possible, and also had the loader arms slightly resting on them.
We built the single box tube mill and welded some rounded tip round stock on the front of the extension we built, so, you simply slide the extension "fingers" into the tube. The fingers were inside all 4 corners of the tube to make exact alignment possible. Then, you just align the tail end of the extension and anchor it so it stays aligned. NOT a big deal at all.
IF you are worried about cant movement, build a simple log stop, clamp system. IF you are looking for mostly long lumber, make a more robust stop/clamp.
You don't have to badmouth any manufacturer,to let us what each mill does or does not meet YOUR specs. You did not present enough info to get better input from the guys here.
ME ? I would get an LT40, used, and mod the snot out of it, only because you never said what make/models of mill you want. What is your budget ? What are your sawing needs going to be, hobby, commercial, mobile , etc. ?
My ideas get shot down here, as does others. Doesn't matter, really. LOTS of good info usually gets sorted out for each application needed.
First question is, do you have cutting/welding equipment, know how ? Is so, I can't possibly see any problem that can't be effectively solved. IF you can't get the answers you want, buy the mill that comes closest to your needs and MOD it. ;D
Many here have done that and, in some cases, the manufacturers have copied some of the ideas. That's how we all learn. 8)
Furu, After reading your post and the following responses I have concluded in my mind that your issue is a valid one. I can only say that after attending this years Sawmill Shoot-out I witnessed most of the manufacturers that carry the portable mill package option, and three of which offer the extension option, after two days of watching mills of all sizes come in and go out of the shoot out area, it seems to me all of them move readily. Keep in mind here that other equipment at times were used to expedite speed, so to the point, I would take a breath, make another call to brand "whatever it is you really want" and simply say a check is in hand if an accurate tongue weight can be given. I sincerely hope you acquire the mill of your choice, david
I think you may be over-thinking things, but it's hard to say without knowing what you plan to use the mill for and what mills and options you are looking at. Since I'm a brand W owner, I can really only give you an opinion of their mills.
First thing you mention was the extension. I just bought one for my LT40. I haven't had the time to hook it up, but I can see what's involved. It would probably be a matter of interpretation as to whether you can consider it mobile. If you want something that you just unhook from your truck and 15 minutes later you're sawing at a customer site, that's not going to happen with the extension. And I'd guess that's the same with extensions on any mill. But if you have a decent amount of time to set it up and a good place to set it up, I think it's possible.
As for options, I'll just give my opinion on the debarker. I don't have one, but would love to get one some day. But, if I knew I was going to be using my mill to resaw most or all of the time, it'd probably be a waste of money. Or if I knew I had really clean logs it might not be worth it. That's why I say it matters what you're using it for.
Tongue weight: My dad and I pulled an LT40 manual for years behind a late 80s Dodge D-50 4x4. Small truck, no brakes on the mill, and it always did fine. And we could always pick the tongue up by hand to position the mill around. My LT40HD is a heavier machine, but tongue weight wasn't a lot different. I pull it behind an '06 2500 ram diesel and I hardly know it's back there. I don't have a weight distributing hitch and I don't think I'd ever need one. Even with an LT70 I wouldn't change my towing setup. I would probably even feel ok pulling it behind a 1/2 ton full size.
You are not overthinking things, in my opinion. However, my biggest concern is that the companies that you contacted wouldn't/couldn't answer the question. Does this mean that they have salespeople unwilling to spend a couple of minutes to get the info, or engineers who can't calculate weight and balance? What service will they give you when they aren't motivated to sell you a sawmill? Too LITTLE tongue weight would be my biggest concern with extensions, and you'd better be pretty confident in welds holding if you make any mods on the mill. Last thing you need is a cracked weld that lets the mill slide down the track while you're pulling it!
You will likely find yourself moving logs and lumber on a trailer that will have serious tongue and pulling weight, so do yourself (and everyone else on the road) a favor, and get a truck with a towing package-- receiver hitch, heavy shocks, electric brakes, and drive train that will be up to the job.
There is nothing sinister about any manufacturer not giving out extra information they consider is not needed to know. For example, if they said the tongue weight is 150 lbs, you could count on someone checking the tongue weight and complaining if theirs was only 145 lbs. or if it was 155 lbs. they would think something was wrong with their mill.
All you need to know is the mill is properly balanced for pulling with a certain sized vehicle.
And the same thing about using certain add ons. The best you can expect is they tell you if it will or will not work. Getting into the nitty gritty details of why is not going to happen.
So the sales people are instructed to stick with what they are given and don't elaborate on other details, regardless if they know or don't know.
It's all on a need to know basis and the sales people who mostly don't know would probably tell you something wrong anyway.
So yes, you are overthinking things.
Must admit I thought on first reading, the question was a bit like posting "does anyone think there's something wrong with me?" With that kind of question, going to get some suggestions no matter what.
But thinking about it further since this morning, I think if it is really down to tongue weight for you, I would encourage you to get an answer. Your receiver probably says 500# and anyone suggesting you buy a mill that has 1000# of tongue weight with the mill in the travel configuration, well...... lol lol lol....(something's not right with that). Ask the salesman if you can send him a scales for him to put the tongue on, this would cost you about $20 incl shipping. http://www.amazon.com/Sway-Digital-Bathroom-Scale-Black/dp/B002PNXNL8/ref=sr_1_4?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1381173832&sr=1-4&keywords=bathroom+scales If it breaks this scales it is over 398 pounds.
Maybe though something else to consider is whether some hands on with the actual mill you're going to buy would be a good idea. If you can get that, you can take a scales along and weigh it yourself.
Just so nobody is left with the impression that all Wood-Mizer mills have a low tongue weight, if you add the Command-Control option and the board return table to a mill, it adds a lot of weight to the tongue. I once measured mine at 330 lbs.
This can be a pain to deal with at time, but I have no complaints about how the mill tows.
--Peter
I only have experience with my Cooks mill. During transport the sawhead is pinned directly over the single axle. Therefore, tongue weight is less than 50 pounds. In fact, if it wasn't for the tongue itself - a big long 4' affair, I don't think it would even have tongue weight. I strap the log ramps to the front of the deck to give it about 125-150 pounds of tongue weight and it rides great.
I have towed more stuff more places and more miles than I care to think about; and I can tell you that tongue weight is not given enough consideration in most cases and you deserve a straight answer - at least a range since I understand it might vary a bit depending in the position of the sawhead. Weight distributing arms/systems help here, but I seriously doubt you'll need it unless you are buying the really big saws.
One example of why it is not given enough consideration: Too much tongue weight for a vehicle takes traction off the front, so during off-road transport in 4WD your front axle won't have as much traction - especially when backing up. So excessive tongue weight can affect your ability to get the saw where you need it.
Good luck!
If everything was what I wanted, I'd go for it. Tow weight is by far the most solvable problem of all you've mentioned. And while it bugs you that the salesmen don't have the answer for you, they aren't truck drivers, and while they may know their equipment, weight distribution isn't likely in their skill set. As light as these mills are, head rig location/accessory equipment location/or even tying down a piece of wood to counter balance if necessary are easy-fix solutions. Any mill you buy is going to, under most circumstances, be legally towable. The only time in my life I ever heard of a manufacturer screwing up regarding weight distribution was when Volvo Trucks introduced the first VN770 model tractors in 1997, and the fuel tanks were too far forward, and the front axle was over weight with a full tank of fuel. They had to move them back on the frame.
I'll throw my opinion in for what it is worth.
I have not had a problem with the tongue weight of the trailer when towing. I do like the tongue weight when I need to reposition the mill slightly left or right from where I have backed the mill into. Or better yet, when I have inadvertantly pulled the pin on the front and dropped the front of the mill down to the ground. That little chrome bar is useless at that point. Luckly I had a few oak blocks to stack on the tail as a counter weight enough to lighten the front form me to lift enough to extend that front leg.
I would think a real trailer jack would be a useful piece of standard equipment instead of indexed leg system with chrome handle. Key word is standard, not the fancy fine tuning out riggers or modifications.
To the point of towing with a bed extension, and tongue weight my thought would be to rig a hauling craddle to hold the mill extension at the front of the mill. Then set up the extension at the milling site. The mill gets pretty long and there has been times when the tail of my mill is only inches off the ground when driving over rough terrain or up hills.
I will say that, for what it's worth, we encourage our sales people not to up-sell folks and not so sell them things we think they don't need.
Often we will say just what the guy at Company Y said: we will sell it to you if you insist but given what you've told us we do not feel this is something you need. We also try to give our folks a lot of latitude to offer opinions based on their (often extensive) experience. So, sometimes, two guys in the office will have opposite opinions.
We don't impose a "party line" and we assuredly don't have the party line you so often see in business (but thankfully rarely in this business) of up-sell no matter what.
Will
That was well said.
Often the salesman has no good clue what the customer wants to hear, or is willing to listen to, or needs to hear.
Like as not, the salesman is trying to come across as knowledgeable but not condescending. As well, not responding with "I don't know off hand, but I will look it up and get back with you" which can be interpreted two ways by the customer. Helpful is one, and "blowing me off" is another.
But Will, you said it well. IMO
Not knowing the demeanor of the OP's conversations, I'll not voice my opinion further. ;D
Thanks for the education. I suppose a lot a folks are underthinking and/or have no awareness of the issue and can not grasp the importance of the questions.
Many of your responses let me know why salesman have no understanding of the reason I ask questions about total weight and specifically the tongue weight of the unit. They have no idea of the importance just as so many other folks have no idea of the importance.
Lack of stability in a tow rig has resulted in many accidents and many deaths. My friends and co-workers see it daily on the highways and have to investigate the resulting accidents. In some cases they have to notify survivors of the deaths of their loved ones. Vehicles end up with the hitch tongue weight so high the tow vehicle rear is sagging and the front wheels have low traction for steering. The opposite is the trailer fishtailing and swaying everytime a vehicle goes past due to stability problems resulting also from tongue weight issues.
If you do not know the facts/numbers you can not avoid overloading a WC hitch and when you need to use a WDH or when you do not need to as well. A tow vehicle that has a 800 lb WC hitch but a 1200 lb WD capability hitch is flat out dangerous if a 1000-1200 lb tongue weight trailer is attached without using WD. Despite the one post; yes a mobile sawmill is a trailer, it is just a trailer that has had a very specific purpose. Reference the response about a salesman not needing to know those type details just as a salesman does not know about gearing ratios. Rear axle gear ratios are on the specs of every truck made for work purposes. The only vehicle I have that does not have the transmission gear ratios in the owners manual is an automatic transmission in a Honda; so Yes I expect the salesman to know or be able to find information out that a customer asks for without saying it is not important.
If you are the type of person that does not care about what you buy that is fine, your money, your choice. I do care and that was the reason and the frustration behind the post.
I have received PM's from helpful folks and I thank them all.
Quote from: Furu on October 09, 2013, 11:30:56 AM
Thanks for the education. I suppose a lot a folks are underthinking and/or have no awareness of the issue and can not grasp the importance of the questions.
I grasp the importance of your questions. But you have not provided specific and measurable details your application. You have a rant on some unspecified sawmill of unspecified manufacturer. I gather you are trying to miss apply a bed extension and be mobile at the same time? Unless you can provide more details from your vague post, we are all only weighing in with an opinion. We all only assume you are looking at a single axle trailer (sawmill), but it could be some guys backyard sawmill builder of a Cummins powered band mill with a mobile forklift mounted on the back as the hydraulic unit.
I sell some of my lumber on the side, and I have found one good sentence works well when I get that certain type of customer, "Maybe my lumber is not the best for you". Part of it is out of honesty and not wanting to misrepresent what I am selling, the other part not wanting to deal with a PIA.
The fact is, the mill manufacturers are making a mobile mill, not a trailer. They are engineered to be pulled down the road as the tow-able piece of machinery that they are. They are not designed for the purpose of transporting anything down the road other than the mill itself. If you plan on turning it into an all purpose trailer, then all bets are off and the manufacturer I can bet is not going to give you a figure that you can dispute because you are using the product for something it was never meant to be. So, having the figures handy in the saleman's mind would also be akin to his knowing the paint thickness in microns and the exact amount of grease contained in the wheel bearings.
A portable mill is not a trailer. Ask the Michigan State trooper that stops you when you have lumber strapped to it. In Michigan, you don't need a plate to tow your mill down the road because it is portable equipment. If you take that same mill and do something that the manufacture never meant for it to do, and throw a log or two on it, or some cut lumber, you legally turned it into a trailer and can be ticketed for not having a plate.
The unfortunate part is that you still neglect to tell us what you are hoping to do, that the manufacturers can't accommodate.
I have not heard or read stories about mills pushing vehicles off the road or the such. I suppose this would be the place where those stories would come up. Many mills have been towed thousands of miles without any problem or a lick of modification. Sounds pretty a safe to me.
Furu,
I appreciate your attempts to not trash any potential sponsors or step on anyone's toes but the lack of detail sets forum members up to make a lot of assumptions. The more fully you describe a problem the easier it would be to offer intelligent answers. The salespeople you spoke to may have been able to access the information you needed if they fully understood the level of detail you desired (and why). They were probably working under certain assumptions. A salesman isn't likely an engineer, or a law enforcement officer, and those occupations don't make good salesmen. smiley_lipsrsealed
It may be that (sounds vague doesn't it - facts missing) that most trailers, or trailer mounted equipment, are designed to apportion 10-15% of the gross trailer weight on the tow vehicle's hitch. Much less than that can cause swaying and much more than that could cause diving. Of course there is an assumption that the tow vehicle is in good condition with a properly sized tow hitch, etc. smiley_thumbsup
My mill weighs about 4000 pounds with fuel. That would mean that my tongue weight should be between 400 and 600 pounds. The Class II hitch on my SUV is rated at 3500 lb/350 tongue weight, the Class IV hitch on my 1 ton is rated at 10,000 lbs/1000 pounds so that is the vehicle I use to tow my mill. Many pickups have Class III hitches rated at 5000 lbs and I suspect that that is how many mills are towed.
There are many different sizes of mills. Some weigh less than 2000 lbs., others up around 7000 lbs. By providing you with the gross weight of their mill I think that there is an assumption that you will take the responsibility of making sure your vehicle can handle that weight. When I picked up my mill they made sure that I had an appropriate sized hitch, that the safety chains were attached and that the wiring harness was properly connected, before I left. smiley_thumbsup
The manufacturer of my mill designed in an alternate location for stowing the mill head which will reduce the tongue weight, others may do so too. Could I move the mill head back and get my tongue weight below the 350 pounds that my SUV would support? Yes, but the mill still exceeds the recommended gross weight of my hitch. smiley_thumbsdown
Another consideration would be the need for a weight distributing hitch. Some jurisdictions may require it for trailers over a certain weight but if you are towing something that exceeds, or even approaches, the weight of the towing vehicle it would be strongly recommended. But that is a responsibility of the vehicle owner/operator - not of the mill manufacturer. We can't help with that because we don't have any facts. smiley_confused
If your vehicle's hitch rating exceeds the gross weight of the mill you are considering it is very likely that the mill's tongue weight will fall in the range appropriate for your hitch - assuming that you haven't installed a hitch that was too heavy for your vehicle (and that you don't have an excessive load on the tow vehicle). I have cited hundreds of trailer violations and investigated quite a few crashes involving both trailers and towed equipment. It has been my experience that manufacturers (of hitchs, and of trailers) design in a 'safety factor' and when I have weighed vehicles with obviously overloaded tow systems, they were significantly overloaded - it was never a close call.
I can appreciate your attention to detail, I'm a detail guy too (perhaps my officers would say 'nit-picky') but we have to understand that not everyone works to that level of detail. If I were talking to an engineer I would expect it, to a salesperson it is probably expecting too much. smiley_whip
Good luck with anticipated purchase. I wouldn't let inability to get the answer to this one question lead you to a mill that wasn't the most suitable for your needs.
I had a trailer try to kill me on an interstate hwy. I managed to time it's swerve and got it onto the side of the road. Left it there, with a jack and bore machine on it, and told the boss where it was and what he could do with it, when he got there. He said just load it REAL tongue heavy. I have hauled lots of stuff, and NEVER had to be stupid enough to try his idea.
I found another job 2 days later, and, the guy with me at that time, was hospitalized by the same rig, 3 weeks later.
Quote from: Jeff on October 09, 2013, 02:03:52 PM
The fact is, the mill manufacturers are making a mobile mill, not a trailer. They are engineered to be pulled down the road as the tow-able piece of machinery that they are. They are not designed for the purpose of transporting anything down the road other than the mill itself. If you plan on turning it into an all purpose trailer, then all bets are off and the manufacturer I can bet is not going to give you a figure that you can dispute because you are using the product for something it was never meant to be. So, having the figures handy in the saleman's mind would also be akin to his knowing the paint thickness in microns and the exact amount of grease contained in the wheel bearings.
A portable mill is not a trailer. Ask the Michigan State trooper that stops you when you have lumber strapped to it. In Michigan, you don't need a plate to tow your mill down the road because it is portable equipment. If you take that same mill and do something that the manufacture never meant for it to do, and throw a log or two on it, or some cut lumber, you legally turned it into a trailer and can be ticketed for not having a plate.
I have no idea where you got the impression that I am planning on or even thinking of putting anything on this mill to transport anywhere. I am merely concerned that the mill, as the manufacturer makes it, does not overload the hitch capacity of my tow vehicle. Overall weight is not the factor that I am concerned about, it is the tongue weight of the mill as the manufacturer designs it that I am concerned about.
Many posters on here have understood that just as many have not grasped anything written. I have no idea what Michigan law is regarding a portable mill and licensing and it is not germane to my question/post which was related to a concern about a towing issue with a mill.
Some posters have asked for more details. I have chosen not to point fingers at a specific manufacturer for their inability to answer what is a very simple question accurately. My vagueness in details is the result of my refusal to drag the company's name out in public.
The folks that understood the original post replied and some privately. Those that did not understand did not and never will understand.
Furu
Relax, as we may understand you more than you realize. ;D
I read that you are looking for a mill that is towable with an extension attached. That would make it a non standard mill and it would not be out of line for the salesman to not know specs for this. I don't see that anyone asked you to name names, just a little more info on what it is you want to achieve. You are quite right, some people will never understand.
Quote from: LeeB on October 09, 2013, 11:45:19 PM
I read that you are looking for a mill that is towable with an extension attached. That would make it a non standard mill and it would not be out of line for the salesman to not know specs for this.
No
I am/was looking for a mill that is mobile just like the majority of sawmills that are advertised as portable/mobile sawmills. Most portable mills have a 21 ft log capability some have 24 ft capability as designed, without extensions. I was looking for one that could have an extension attached to it for when it was at my woodlot, not when it was mobile and not when it was at a remote (read not my woodlot) location. There are manufacturers that make mills with removable extensions (bolted) just as there are manufacturers that make mills with extensions that are permanently attached (welded). Obviously it takes time to install/reinstall the non permanent extensions and properly aligned them. I know of no manufacturer that makes a mill with a removable extension that can be mobile with said extension still attached. (there maybe one but I don't know of it) The ones that are permanent are in most cases limited to at most 26 ft if still tow-able but there is one manufacturer that says they can build a 33 ft capable mill and still have it mobile. Of course it has three axles and I have no interest in anything of that size.
If I were you I would call the salesman back you are talking to and ask to talk to his boss. Most sawmill salesman's can get you the info you want, but unfortunately just as in everyday life some people are stupid. And there is the case that he did not understand you maybe he thought you wanted to he mill with the extension in place and couldn't come up with a good way to tell you that isn't possible, could be a misunderstanding also. Anyway if you want the mil call back and talk to the owner/boss and get your answers.
Quote from: Furu on October 09, 2013, 11:23:08 PM
The folks that understood the original post replied and some privately. Those that did not understand did not and never will understand.
I suggest you lose the condescending attitude. No one had one with you. You came and asked the question, and you are getting responses based on how you presented the information. Everyone has an opinion and can relate and share their knowledge based on their experience. You asked a question here to I presume seek guidance, and then took the information you deemed agreeable and condemn the people that you disagree with or think shared irrelevant information to your question. That's just not going to fly. There is no reason to be like that here.
In all honesty, furu's question is a simple one.
Believe it or not, I asked many questions before I finalized my decision, and only one place was very responsive and answered my questions with even more explanations that I needed.
Each individual is coming from different background and experiences, with different standards. To me, honesty, integrity, and truthfulness matters a lot. And if a sales person try to BS his way through my questions; that will be NO GO in Army lingo!!
So, asking furu; what he has in mind and why he is asking these questions, does not make any difference. He just needed an accurate answer that unfortunately he did not get. I asked the same question, and the response was 650 lbs for that specific model. It is that simple to a simple person like me and myself together!!
I went back and read the first post in its entirety, and I again came away with the conclusion that you wanted to have extensions as part of your mobile mill, and from lack of information, I would assume you wanted to haul the extensions on the mill because of the statement you said one salesman said about it you do that, you won't be able to have a mobile mill. That directly translates in my mind, that how can you determine the tongue weight if you are hauling accessories on it not designed into the original portable mill, like extensions. Now that we get more information, is seems that you don't want to do that. Either way, I also read in the original post words like Rant , bashing contest, frustrating and lawyer that just about sums up this topic and it hasn't a thing to do with the posts made by anyone other than the attitude coming in of the original poster. In fact, you never asked for help if you read back through the topic. you just wanted confirmation that you had the right to be frustrated. Well, I say, when you look at the world in a certain way, then yes you certainly do, in fact, you can expect to be.
"Hey guys, trying to buy a mill, and can't get specifics on tongue weight, can anybody weigh in on what to expect on a mill with these given specifications?"
Now that is an easy question, and I am guessing what was intended? The other alternative is the rant and bashing part is what was desired since it was eventually turned upon the other posters. To be clear, I'm not trying to pick on someone here, I'm just doing my duty to keep things civil around here and the attitude in here needed to be addressed for the sake of everybody. On the rare occasion it has to be done.
Like I said earlier, get a scale and go see the mill and put the tongue on the scale, you will have the answer you are so seeking without any agravation what so ever. :P
Just buy a bigger truck ;D
Quote from: Furu on October 09, 2013, 11:30:56 AM
... and when you need to use a WDH or when you do not need to as well.
Everyone needs a little WDH now and then. ;D
I was thought of something today. The OP was very concerned about tongue weight. Do they weigh the tongue weight of every trailer they pull? I only wondered because they seemed very concerned about it and the tongue/trailer weight ratio as well as the total weight of the trailer vs what the tow vehicle was rated at.
When we bought our first mill I had done research for a couple years and because I really didn't know enough about portable mills, I made the choice to go with a Timber Harvester mill. The guy on the phone selling the mill to me seemed pretty great and they sent a pre-purchase agreement to me before delivery. That year was the 'on' year for the local forestry products EXPO and I was looking forward to Timber Harvester being there showing my machine off before I took it home.
A few weeks before the show, the salesman told me he didn't think they were going to be at the show because the show's coordinators were giving them a lot of hassle and run around and it wasn't really worth going. I was kinda miffed at this so, like an idiot, I fired off an email to the organization running the show chastising them for not working with Timber Harvester and getting them a spot in the show, and how I hoped they would be there as a brand new mill owner etc., etc., etc.
I got a reply explaining to me that TH had been excluded from the show because they had not paid for their site at the show or even sent in a deposit and that this was nothing new from them. They went on to say that based on their experience dealing with TH, I might want to think about buying from another sawmill maufacturer. (TH did make it to the show but they had only had one mill there and barely enough room run it.)
This really bummed me out and made me worry because I was already committed and had already sent them 5 grand as a deposit.
When it was time, the mill came to the house rather than the show, delivered by a guy who lived halfway between me and TH who was a rep of the company. He was very nice and spent some time showing us how to run the mill and saw. He left us with the owner's manual and a couple hats and was on his way. The owner's manual was a joke at best, with over half of it being hand drawn pictures of various parts you may need to order down the road. The whole manual may have been 15 or 20 pages thick. That was it. Nothing else.
Fast forward a few months later and I tried to go to their website, but it was no longer there. I then tried to call their 1-800 number, but got no answer other than a message telling me that number was not in service. I tried sending email, but they came back to me. I tried calling the pay number and got no response. This was when I had a mill I still owed $20,000 on and was about 3.5 months old. 6 months after all this, I got a letter from some attorney's office telling me that TH had gone through bankruptcy and blah blah blah. So that was it. No customer service, no warranty, no parts, nothing.
We ran the mill for 4.5 years and it was a good machine and would saw very well once it was all set up and settled in. There were some things that could have been better but overall, the mill was a good machine. I got lucky.
Now we own a Woodmizer and I cannot begin to tell you the difference in dealing with a professional company versus one that seems like it is being run out of someone's garage. I have no idea what you're looking at, but make sure the people selling it are going to be there before and after the sale.
Good luck!
Furu,
My turn to weigh in.
If your tow vehicle can handle the gross combined weight of the mill and tow vehicle,(by your vehicle manufacturer's specs) it will almost assuredly will handle the tongue weight.
Personally unless I was planning to move the mill several times a week over long distances, I would not worry much about it. On the other hand if I was moving more than sawing and the tongue weight was obviously too heavy or too light, I would simply re-position the head to remedy the imbalance.
If this is not something you think you would want to handle yourself, perhaps you've been looking at the wrong mills. Call Steven or Tim Cook at Cook's Saw Manufacturing (one of many of FF sponsors in the left margin). They will build you virtually any mill you want, and you won't have worry about tongue weight. It will be right. As it would with Wood-Mizer, TimberKing, Baker, or any of the other major manufacturers.
As far as a debarker or mud saw, I find it difficult to understand that if a mill manufacturer advertises a debarker/mud saw, that he would tell you that you didn't want one.
Now everyone take a step back, a deep breath and let's move on to real problems and their solutions.
Pete
(Hope I'm not over-thinking this)
what difference does it make how well it tows if it doesn't cut straight or square?
there are a myriad of other problems that can arise once you start using the mill that will make you forget all about towing issues... except of course, towing it back to the dealer you bought it from.
let it never be said there are no down sides to paying cash.
You strike me as someone who knows more than the average bear... and NO!!!! you're not over thinking anything! My kids ride with me while I tow all types of stuff, I pass / meet thousands of people on the roads while towing. I want my set up as perfect as I can get it. My family and other innocent peoples lives are at stake. I want my trailer load balanced correctly and my loads secured!
I've put enough miles on the road to see way to many trailer accidents from stupid people that just hooked up and traveled, with no regards to the set up.
I have to remind myself constantly that most folks out there are clueless, a very small percentage has any decent common sense. The same percentage applies to sales people and any other profession.
Depending on what I'm looking at, often I ask to speak with the engineering department, or may just ask for a list of specs to be given an email them the specs I want to know. (give'm a few days to get an engineer to provide them.) With the email, I have documentation if something isn't right.
If they need to use a scale to determine the tongue weight, then let them do it, even if you have to give them a link to a YouTube demo. Its your money, you shouldn't have to show up with scales... that's crazy.
Keep up the responsible knowledge /action, and try not to let "goof balls" frustrate you. Good luck with you endeavors.
Quote from: cntryby on October 14, 2013, 05:14:29 PM
I want my trailer load balanced correctly and my loads secured!
A portable sawmill is NOT a trailer. It is a piece of equipment designed and engineered to be towed as that. It is not something you should be loading anything on and change the way the machine is balanced through its design. Follow the manufacturer's towing instructions with a vehicle that is rated to tow that machine. If you are going to toy around with tongue weight because you are towing outside of the manufacturer's recommendations, then that should be on you to figure that all out, not them, unless you are paying them to custom re-design to your specifications. I will agree that if a customer wants to know what the tongue weight is before purchase, than get him the info he asked for. Just let them know, it is what it is, because that is how it was designed.
I second what Jeff has stated and the input from many of the other members, whatever the tongue weight may be you can rest assured that all of the responsible manufacturer have spent may hours considering every possible factor involved in the trailer end of this equipment ....... your efforts might be better directed in how the mill is engineered and how well it stands up to do what the manufacturers claim they are capable of.
There are a lot of well built mills to choose from and if your going to buy one be sure it comes with FULL factory and dealer support with a realistic warranty to back up the equipment. Better yet find one that will let you return it if you are not happy with it and you will be in a great position to evaluate it for yourself. ;D
Quote from: Jeff on October 15, 2013, 11:31:26 AM
Quote from: cntryby on October 14, 2013, 05:14:29 PM
I want my trailer load balanced correctly and my loads secured!
A portable sawmill is NOT a trailer. It is a piece of equipment designed and engineered to be towed as that. It is not something you should be loading anything on and change the way the machine is balanced through its design. Follow the manufacturer's towing instructions with a vehicle that is rated to tow that machine. If you are going to toy around with tongue weight because you are towing outside of the manufacturer's recommendations, then that should be on you to figure that all out, not them, unless you are paying them to custom re-design to your specifications. I will agree that if a customer wants to know what the tongue weight is before purchase, than get him the info he asked for. Just let them know, it is what it is, because that is how it was designed.
If you'll read my entire comment, I said, "I tow all kinds of stuff". (I have ten or twelve trailers of varying capacities and purposes.) I never implied that a mill was a trailer to be used for transporting loads. However, that being said, as you said, and as we agree, the manufactures design these machines to be towed as a trailer. If the manufacture has options they should be able to provide specs for anything they offer. It may require relocation of the axle, or adjusting the travel position of the head... etc. But they should have already validated every possible configuration is safe and meets the standards for tongue weight to gross weight ratio required by all trailers.
I also agree that anything done outside of the OEM configuration is on the person who sets it up. I know I wouldn't want to go through the rest of my life being responsible for causing harm or death to anyone else. Especially for something as trivial as transporting a mill and related paraphernalia.
I just looked at the Woodmizer web site and their portable sawmills are equipped with what Woodmizer is calling a "trailer package".
I can't believe this topic has generated 4 pages of responses ::)