Different rate for ERC?

[NCDiesel]

I was researching rates, and came across two different posts from two different people (POSTON and MagicMan I think) that charge hourly for ERC even though they ordinarily charge by the board foot.  They did not mention why in the post.

I have never sawn ERC and was curious why.   Is it difficult?   Because log sizes are normally small?   Just curious .

Thanks in advance!

[Magicman]

Yes, it's hourly rate for me sawing ERC. 

Since the logs are generally fluted, may have ingrown bark, and often contain rot inside, it is easy to spend time sawing and and not have any or very little measurable lumber.  Also, customers often want the widest boards possible so measuring 7½, 4¼, and 8¾ inch wide boards become problematic.  Then there are the different thicknesses and the customer may decide that he wants a mantel out of the center of the log after you have it set up for something else.

None of the above affects my hourly rate charges.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Magic is correct. In addition to what he has said, Most of the Cedar logs I get in have to have the knots and small limbs chain sawed off of them.
Most have to be sawn to length since they were logged out of the woods by machinery and brought straight to the mill. All my time adds up.

[Cedarman]

There is a reason the margin (difference in price per board foot in the log and price per board foot of good ERC lumber) is so much larger than most other species.

[drobertson]

there several ways to look at it.  There may be nubs to trim, there may be fluted logs, and they may be small.
They may be purchased, or custom sawn.  If they are bought, knock off for the excessive nubs, scale accordingly to the flutes and know you limits on the small end.  They saw fast if they are slicked off.  A pain if you have to deal with the unattended nubs.  Know what it takes for at least a 4x4, and don't discount the slabs, they will sell. They last a long time when banded.  Custom sawing must be discussed up front.  Flutes mean in grown bark which means loose and separating boards at sometime.  Most folks will go for it, some will find out later.  Time can be made on ERC, there will be waste as any other wood, as mentioned, the value is in the finish product and availability of it.    david

[LeeB]

I have been known to saw them 2 at a time.

[Larry]

I agree with the others in that ERC lumber production is slower than other species.

ERC does have some redeeming qualities.  I usually don't have as many flitches to edge.  Slabs and lumber are lighter to handle (important for us older guys).  I saw 4/4 ERC thinner usually at the 1" and a lot of times even thinner so I get more boards out of a log.  It also saws a lot faster than the rest, but the hard little knots still dull the band.

[shelbycharger400]

I've noticed in the past, if you leave the knots on for mantles and bench stock, it's a lot harder cutting through that knot that changed grain direction. Also that bark really loves to hold the sand

[pineywoods]

I've noticed in the past, if you leave the knots on for mantles and bench stock, it's a lot harder cutting through that knot that changed grain direction. Also that bark really loves to hold the sand

Yeah, that bark can be a pain. Comes off in long strings and plugs up my sawdust blower..

[Magicman]

As badly as I dislike sawing ERC, I still love it.  It smells just like money.

[Cedarman]

As magicman says, ERC, money, money, money. :D :D :D

[Farmerjw]

May I please interrupt and ask, "what does ERC mean"?   ???

[Magicman]

Eastern Red Cedar

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Eastern Red Cedar

Easy Ready Cash

[mesquite buckeye]

Re: fluting and defect in ERC. Fluting appears to be genetically controlled, the main selective benefit being resistance to debarking and subsequent death by animals like buck whitetails or buffalo, or for trees with a longer memory, giant ground sloths, mammoths and mastodons. If you manage your cedar stands, the fluted trees can be culled out early in the rotation, resulting in more perfections (as in: It's a perfection! (border spanglish)).

I suspect that rot and defect result from a combination of susceptible individuals combined with conditions favorable for the development of the fungus. I think management can help here too. Kill every tree with a conk on it and prune and thin the stand to open it up for more air, thus lower humidity and a less favorble environment for the fungus. ;D

[Chuck White]

As a general rule, any Cedar means extra handling, which equals time!

[paulT]

I am enjoying the ERC subject. I just took delivery today of this.

 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I wish something like that would pull up in my yard. Pretty good Paul!

[Farmerjw]

Thank you for educating me folks.  Paul, that load would be a lifetime of pen blanks, bowl blanks and whatever else I could think of!!

[Cedarman]

Paul, I hope you have clamps on your loader.  A load like that is a bear to unload without fork clamps.  We have had 150 tons come in in the last few days and expect that much more in a few days.  Even with clamps, still takes 45 minutes to unload.

Mesquite,  I think environmental or soil conditions can have a big effect on rot in cedar.  There is an area about 1 1/2 miles wide and 6 miles long where 1/2 the trees have rot.  It is not the speckled rot sprinkled through the log, but a white ring, sometimes 2 or 3 smaller white rings that form when the tree didn't form heartwood at the proper time.  Those white rings can rot out completely leaving a tree within a tree.  I have racked my brain trying to figure out what cause these trees to do this.  I am thinking that the soil is poorly drained as the cause.  ERC hates wet feet.

[mesquite buckeye]

My guess would be something environmental that year, perhaps combined with soil conditions. Do you know the year of the ring, and if so I would check the weather records for that year to see if something correlates, like a super cold, wet, or drought year. Also, what is that area like as far as soil type and depth, hardpans, etc.? ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

One more thought. Can you see which trees have the defect before they are cut? If so, the fact that only half have the defect is the basis for selecting the good ones to leave during a thinning. :P

[Cedarman]

Best thing to do on those sites is a clear cut and let hardwoods that are already growing take over.  The white rings are sometimes 3 to 6 years wide.  Sometimes there are double and triple rings.  Also the wood that does convert to heartwood is light red rather than a darker red.  I haven't been into that area for quite some time.  The next time some cedar comes from that area I will do a count to see if trees started growing at the same time and if the white rings are at the same time.  Could be a weather thing.  Also, I am thinking a grazing and weather thing combined as the different woods were fenced and most likely were depression era pastures.

[mesquite buckeye]

Really interesting. I'm sure part of it is a genetic component. Do you know how deep the soil is there? It would be really interesting to compare the area of heavy defect with the SCS county soils maps.

[drobertson]

this is most interesting, of the last 20m I've sawn, there has been a blend of near perfect cedar mixed with the fluty, with some rot on the bigger ones.  When I asked about this the loggers said they all came from one track, pretty much the same terrain.  I have always thought that birds actually plant the cedar, so could it be more of a genetic disorder?   david