Simonds standall teeth quality control issue - anyone else notice?

SheSaws · February 16, 2024, 10:11:55 AM

Recently we got a shipment of Stand-All 5/16ths 9/8 BF style chrome teeth from Simonds and every box we got for the last two shipments were absolute garbage and was wondering if other people experienced the same thing.

Straight out of the box the teeth were *very* dull and the cutting surface was shorter than usual. One box was extremely dull AND had a rolled over burr edge. I can tell they weren't used, the flat surface looks brand new and the box was taped shut.

It has only been the last two shipments we got from our local saw dealer, even the replacement order came dull.

Sharpening brand new teeth sucks, it immediately makes shortens the life of the teeth and those teeth are expensive.

SawyerTed · February 16, 2024, 10:21:18 AM

Welcome to the Forum. I don't use that brand so can't comment. What does your supplier say?

DanielW · February 16, 2024, 10:27:14 AM

The last boxes I got were fine, but my supplier had loads of stock, so I suspect they've been sitting on their shelf for a while. Hopefully they haven't changed their manufacturing practices.

That's really unfortunate to hear: I always figured Simonds was one of the few reputable companies still left in this gig. I'd be causing a massive stink if it were me: Shame on Simonds for making them like that, and shame on your supplier for selling them.

SheSaws · February 16, 2024, 11:02:27 AM

Quote from: SawyerTed on February 16, 2024, 10:21:18 AMWelcome to the Forum. I don't use that brand so can't comment. What does your supplier say?

My bosses are working on reaching out to the supplier. But the first time they reached out they sent us a new box and that new box was also bad so I'm not sure where they stand at this point. I'm just wondering if an entire batch was bad And other people also have seen this dip in quality

SheSaws · February 16, 2024, 11:05:22 AM

Quote from: DanielW on February 16, 2024, 10:27:14 AMThe last boxes I got were fine, but my supplier had loads of stock, so I suspect they've been sitting on their shelf for a while. Hopefully they haven't changed their manufacturing practices.

That's really unfortunate to hear: I always figured Simonds was one of the few reputable companies still left in this gig. I'd be causing a massive stink if it were me: Shame on Simonds for making them like that, and shame on your supplier for selling them.

Well, that's what I'm trying to do. To get my buyers at the mill to make a stink to the vendors. They don't have to use these [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better and could be banned for doing it] teeth, so it seems to not be a priority to them. I was hoping to find other people with a similar issue, so I can show my bosses that it's a real problem.

Bert · February 16, 2024, 04:38:37 PM

Not chromes but plain but the last box I ordered directly from Simonds all had a slight angle on the tip. Enough to pull the saw some. Not a huge deal but required a filing to square them up.

longtime lurker · February 16, 2024, 04:53:22 PM

I go through a couple boxes of dominators a year, haven't seen any issues with them.

SheSaws · February 16, 2024, 06:49:49 PM

Quote from: Bert on February 16, 2024, 04:38:37 PMNot chromes but plain but the last box I ordered directly from Simonds all had a slight angle on the tip. Enough to pull the saw some. Not a huge deal but required a filing to square them up.

the box I had that was extremely dull with a visible burr/rolled edge was also very angled. My question is, at $200/box is it really "not a big deal" when you have to grind them down right out of the box? In my experience that lessens their lifespan drastically

Brian_Rhoad · February 16, 2024, 07:01:56 PM

Simond's had problems with their saw teeth in the 1990s. We got some that were machined offset to one side. The tooth had more meat on one side. It made the saw pull to that side. The tooth face was machined correctly. To use the teeth they needed to be swedged and side dressed to cut properly.

I would contact Simond's directly about your problems.

moodnacreek · February 16, 2024, 07:02:50 PM

It is amazing what you can get away with when you have no competition. Back when I started using chrome the longs where distorted so bad you could not fix them. Before i joined this forum there were posts here about bad Simonds teeth. They run off bad batches from time to time. When you order ask the dealer to open the boxes and check them as he will have a beter chance to send them back than you. I have quite a collection of saw bits mostly old stock, some in Hoe and IKS and Simonds simo brite, tungs weld and high speed steel. Stuff from the 50's and 60's when there where 4 or 5 makers. All those old bits where made perfect. I am so glad I invested in them. Simonds saws are the best you can get today. They cost more, you have to wait, and they must be hammered by someone else as Simonds can not finish their own product. Never trust new saws, shanks or bits. You need to know what they should look like and how tight they should fit in your saw. I once had a mud saw given to me that would not work. The backs of the shoulders where to high. I have seen new edger saws spit the bits out in warm weather. There our always problems keeping a mill saw sawing straight, clean and cool and now we have poor supplies.

longtime lurker · February 16, 2024, 10:05:18 PM

$200 a box doesn't sound bad. I paid $1357 AUD for a box of BF 8/9 X 9/32 dominators last week.

Probably get them in from the US over the internet cheaper but exchange rates, international shipping etc... and if you don't support the local distributor then there won't be a local distributor and they got to make a buck too. I'm a believer in paying for service and they carry them on the shelf so I don't have to think months ahead.

Got 6 weeks off the last set, that's about average. It's still far more cost effective than welded bits for dirty work.

moodnacreek · February 17, 2024, 07:51:28 AM

Simonds carbide bits here are pushing $500 a box. There are a few other brands around $100 cheaper but the Simonds manage to center the carbide better than some of the others. Carbide bits will last if you don't chip the corners off. They do take more power than regular or chrome.

Ron Wenrich · February 17, 2024, 09:09:12 AM

I never bought Simonds teeth until they bought out IKS and Hoe. I always got the longs, as they had more meat on them then the standards. I never used standalls.

I did have a problem with teeth back in the 2000s. They dulled really quickly. I talked it over with the guy doing our repair work and he talked directly to the guys making the bits at Simonds. Their problem had to do with the Rockwell rating of the steel they were using. It was too soft. If you get it too hard, the tooth will be brittle and hard to sharpen.

Your problem isn't with the chrome. That just covers up the underlying steel. The problem is the underlying steel is too soft. Couple that with their dies being worn out and they'll have problems, which they simply pass on to you.

moodnacreek · February 17, 2024, 01:16:43 PM

I was told that the side grinding of Simonds bits was piece work. The worker has to dress the stones and this cuts into his pay. You can guess the outcome towards the end of the day. All the chrome long that I found bad where apparently formed in worn out dies. Even with swedging and side dressing I could not get them run.

SheSaws · February 18, 2024, 05:03:16 PM

Quote from: moodnacreek on February 17, 2024, 01:16:43 PMI was told that the side grinding of Simonds bits was piece work. The worker has to dress the stones and this cuts into his pay. You can guess the outcome towards the end of the day. All the chrome long that I found bad where apparently formed in worn out dies. Even with swedging and side dressing I could not get them run.

You swedge your chrome teeth? I was told it's not worth swedging chrome teeth bc they can be too brittle to begin with.

On another note I switched from the 9/32 to the 5/16 which came from an older batch and were sharp out of the box and the blade is running MUCH better. I was starting to worry that my issues with blade wobble wasn't the teeth and instead an issue with the blade temper but new teeth really made a big difference so I'm def gonna blame it on the teeth.

SheSaws · February 18, 2024, 05:05:51 PM

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on February 17, 2024, 09:09:12 AMI never bought Simonds teeth until they bought out IKS and Hoe. I always got the longs, as they had more meat on them then the standards. I never used standalls.

I did have a problem with teeth back in the 2000s. They dulled really quickly. I talked it over with the guy doing our repair work and he talked directly to the guys making the bits at Simonds. Their problem had to do with the Rockwell rating of the steel they were using. It was too soft. If you get it too hard, the tooth will be brittle and hard to sharpen.

Your problem isn't with the chrome. That just covers up the underlying steel. The problem is the underlying steel is too soft. Couple that with their dies being worn out and they'll have problems, which they simply pass on to you.

I have very little experience with teeth outside of the brand and style my employer already buys, and my bosses aren't too keen on change so I just ride with it. Even getting them to acknowledge an issue with the bad teeth was a struggle.

Regarding the softness, you may be right but the fact that they come, out of the box, with a substantial rolled burr tells me in might be more than just soft steel here. Something in the mfg process changed to maybe take too much material off the tooth when they prep for shipment.

SheSaws · February 18, 2024, 05:08:28 PM

Quote from: moodnacreek on February 17, 2024, 07:51:28 AMSimonds carbide bits here are pushing $500 a box. There are a few other brands around $100 cheaper but the Simonds manage to center the carbide better than some of the others. Carbide bits will last if you don't chip the corners off. They do take more power than regular or chrome.

Sadly with the way my logs are prepped and "scaled", I'm always gonna chip corners of teeth. They're not always fully debarked, and sometimes the log is sooooo knotty and messed up that all I do is run it through the saw to chip the whole thing. That's why my mill doesn't use carbide much anymore. The logs just aren't that good of quality and being hardwood only I run into chipped teeth on the regular. Chrome can handle a bunch of chips from what I've experienced

SheSaws · February 18, 2024, 05:17:15 PM

Quote from: longtime lurker on February 16, 2024, 10:05:18 PM$200 a box doesn't sound bad. I paid $1357 AUD for a box of BF 8/9 X 9/32 dominators last week.

Probably get them in from the US over the internet cheaper but exchange rates, international shipping etc... and if you don't support the local distributor then there won't be a local distributor and they got to make a buck too. I'm a believer in paying for service and they carry them on the shelf so I don't have to think months ahead.

Got 6 weeks off the last set, that's about average. It's still far more cost effective than welded bits for dirty work.

I'm curious, have you ever compared the dominators to the stand-all? And if so what did you think? I saw exclusively hardwood and oak so I need a super durable tooth I can sharpen with a ruby wheel in my jockey (which I hate but is a whole other convo lol)

Jeff · February 18, 2024, 05:19:39 PM

Are you guys running a debarker?

SheSaws · February 18, 2024, 05:30:06 PM

Quote from: Jeff on February 18, 2024, 05:19:39 PMAre you guys running a debarker?

Yes we have a huge debarker but sometimes my debarker operator has an off day, sometimes she doesn't get all the bark off, etc etc. we do logs that are ugly as hell and unweildy. S- shaped; rainbow shaped, big fat crotches... it all winds up on the debarker deck lol. So there's lots of bark whether I like it or not

Jeff · February 18, 2024, 06:10:50 PM

You might find interest in this. We know the struggle...
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=10976.0

moodnacreek · February 18, 2024, 07:02:51 PM

Quote from: SheSaws on February 18, 2024, 05:03:16 PM
Quote from: moodnacreek on February 17, 2024, 01:16:43 PMI was told that the side grinding of Simonds bits was piece work. The worker has to dress the stones and this cuts into his pay. You can guess the outcome towards the end of the day. All the chrome long that I found bad where apparently formed in worn out dies. Even with swedging and side dressing I could not get them run.

You swedge your chrome teeth? I was told it's not worth swedging chrome teeth bc they can be too brittle to begin with.

On another note I switched from the 9/32 to the 5/16 which came from an older batch and were sharp out of the box and the blade is running MUCH better. I was starting to worry that my issues with blade wobble wasn't the teeth and instead an issue with the blade temper but new teeth really made a big difference so I'm def gonna blame it on the teeth.

Contrary to popular belief you can swedge chrome bits. For years I would not buy them because I thought you couldn't.

moodnacreek · February 18, 2024, 07:06:07 PM

Quote from: SheSaws on February 18, 2024, 05:17:15 PM
Quote from: longtime lurker on February 16, 2024, 10:05:18 PM$200 a box doesn't sound bad. I paid $1357 AUD for a box of BF 8/9 X 9/32 dominators last week.

Probably get them in from the US over the internet cheaper but exchange rates, international shipping etc... and if you don't support the local distributor then there won't be a local distributor and they got to make a buck too. I'm a believer in paying for service and they carry them on the shelf so I don't have to think months ahead.

Got 6 weeks off the last set, that's about average. It's still far more cost effective than welded bits for dirty work.

I'm curious, have you ever compared the dominators to the stand-all? And if so what did you think? I saw exclusively hardwood and oak so I need a super durable tooth I can sharpen with a ruby wheel in my jockey (which I hate but is a whole other convo lol)

Dominators are stand-all's with a slot cut and a carbide chip brazed in.

longtime lurker · February 19, 2024, 04:41:04 AM

I don't think any commercial hardwood mill in Australia has ran on anything except tungsten carbide teeth for decades. Even the guys with wide bands. Most of what we saw is super hard and carbide has far better wear characteristics than anything else out there... a lot of what I run on was classed as unmillable back in the days of spring set saws.

T/C doesn't sharpen up to the fine edge of steel or chrome but it holds a half decent edge way longer than anything else will. Downside is cost, and it's somewhat brittle and will chip out if it hits embedded rocks/sand, and it will occasionally throw a tooth if you plow into a knot due to the bronze weld holding the T/C to the tooth body letting go.

I'm a bit of an anomaly in that I run insert teeth on the headsaw. Most circle mills here prefer welded in teeth because they perform a lot better. I like inserts because I get a lot of embedded gravel and rock... some of my logs come in by barge and the guys unloading just dump them off onto a gravel lot with no thought about what happens later. Being able to just replace an individual tooth without removing the saw is pretty handy given that problem.

moodnacreek · February 19, 2024, 08:40:33 AM

One problem with carbide bits is are only made in stand-all style. Many old time sawyers disliked stand-all bits but to use carbide you are stuck with them. Stand-alls are hard on shoulders and take more power. There may still be another choice and that is tungsweld bits that I think can be special ordered. The supplier who has them I can not mention here.