Did i do something wrong

Farmboy 96 · May 24, 2015, 06:39:14 PM

Hi everyone the other day i stopped in to see a landowner if they might want some wood cut off. Well the landowner isn't really from around here and her property is actually a small farm so she has hired a man to manage her farm. The lady who owns it said she would like to have her 80 acres selectivly cut. So I'm all good with her and the manager but they are part of some group where they get a tax break (not tree growth) because there a farm so they have to ok it with there consulting forester. The forester is putting up quiet a stink about this and wants one of his chum buddies to do the job. But the owner would like me to because I'm just one man with a cable skidder and she isn't to keen on having heavy equipment on her land. The forester doesn't even want to give me a chance and won't even return any of my calls. This is really starting to tick me off. >:(

sawguy21 · May 24, 2015, 07:02:36 PM

Are you properly insured? The forester may be worried about liability. You also may need a business license to be legally hired.

luvmexfood · May 24, 2015, 07:20:35 PM

Probably not. Could be a number of factors such as; the good ole boy system, he could be concerned about a start-up operation, maybe the logger gives him a little "finders fee" or he could have an ego and is upset that the landowner is not following his suggestions. Maybe he is on vacation.

Some of the other guys could probably give you better advice on this but I might be inclined to contact the landowner and make sure they know you are still interested and not getting a response from the forester.

If they insist you do the job and the forester is the kind of person to hold a grudge he will nit pick everything you do. Just do it right.

treeslayer2003 · May 24, 2015, 07:33:40 PM

Quote from: luvmexfood on May 24, 2015, 07:20:35 PM
Probably not. Could be a number of factors such as; the good ole boy system, he could be concerned about a start-up operation, maybe the logger gives him a little "finders fee" or he could have an ego and is upset that the landowner is not following his suggestions. Maybe he is on vacation.

Some of the other guys could probably give you better advice on this but I might be inclined to contact the landowner and make sure they know you are still interested and not getting a response from the forester.

If they insist you do the job and the forester is the kind of person to hold a grudge he will nit pick everything you do. Just do it right.

i will +1 this word for word. really you used better words than i would have lol.

op you will probably not have much luck with the consulting foresters, get and stay legal and cultivate a relationship with the county guys. show them you can and will do a good job. they get paid by the state and are non biased as long as you do right.

Ron Scott · May 24, 2015, 08:33:48 PM

Encourage the landowner to have the timber harvest put out on bids and insure that the forester includes you on the bidder's list. Is this your first potential timber harvest job or do you have some areas to show the forester that you have experience in this type of timber harvest?

jwilly3879 · May 24, 2015, 08:59:46 PM

Had a similar situation with a consulting forester on our job. I had worked for the LO for awhile, building him a cabin, barn and a road to his cabin. I knew him through other friends and customers. From the beginning he wanted my son and I to do the job but the forester he hired disagreed, we finally got a 20 page contract signed and started the job. Got a call from the LO to set up a meeting with him to discuss what the forester had told him about us and the job. He was suspicious of what he was hearing, based on out prior relationship so we took him out through the job and he was very happy. Forester claimed we had violated the contract numerous times and were stealing from the LO. Had about 2 cords of firewood stacked on the header and when the forester came checking it was gone. He assumed we had stolen it and reported it to the LO. The LO never told him that he knew about it and had been paid for it so he decided to give the forester a little rope to see where it went.

That forester found another job. The next forester walked the job with the LO and told him he was getting an excellent job and he was lucky to have us do the harvest. The first was never satisfied.

If the LO wants you to do the job she can override the forester but you may have a rough go of it.

Farmboy 96 · May 24, 2015, 10:51:22 PM

The Lo wants me to do the job but the forester doesn't. I tried contacting the consulting forester but he won't even call me back. I simply left my name,, #, and asked him if he could plz call me back. I see no reason why it should matter to the forester who does the job so long as the landowner is happy and satisfied with the job. Even if the forester doesn't want me to do the job id really like to figure out something i could do to prove to him that i do exactly what i say. This is my first job and while i don't have insurance yet i know the company I'm gonna use and just gotta call them. I can't afford to pay for something that i don't need until i find work. If the forester isn't willing to even give me a chance how in the heck are younger people like me ever expected to join this industry.

Farmboy 96 · May 24, 2015, 10:52:51 PM

Forgot to add that before i cut 1 stick of wood i will have insurance. I know all local and state laws and ordinances.

thenorthman · May 24, 2015, 11:02:34 PM

Do your best to get in on the bidding, and if you get the job do a fine job of it and watch your back the entire time.

If you don't get the job, don't worry about it, you'll get one soon enough, then its up to you to prove Mr. forester wrong on every level, continue to do good work and your name will spread.

besides yer young still... I was once told (repeatedly)"no challenge, no growth"

JohnW · May 25, 2015, 08:06:44 AM

Could it be due to a minor's incapability to contract? I think maybe if you make a contract with a minor, you have no way of inforcing it.

Holmes · May 25, 2015, 08:53:04 AM

JohnW has a good point. It also could be age discrimination ;) young and inexperienced.. That age issue can be ok for the landowner but I would not sleep well if I was responsible for you working in the woods under my forestry plan. " This is really starting to tick me off" Being persistent with a smile on your face and in your voice can go a long way. Good luck

Phorester · May 25, 2015, 09:39:35 AM

HOLMES and others here have some good points. Put yourself in the forester's shoes: Here is a young guy with no experience, no insurance, etc. wanting to cut timber (a very dangerous job) for a landowner who has hired me to see that a timber harvest is carried out safely, legally, and efficiently. Sounds like the forester is trying to protect the landowner.

"I can't afford to pay for something that i don't need until i find work." Unfortunately, you do need it to find work. If you feel you can't afford to pay for it before you get work, maybe you need to get financial backing from somebody to get all of your business aspects in place before soliciting business.

In my area, a bidder has to have proof of insurance, business license, logger certifications, etc., etc. in order to bid. It has to be shown that the logger is a bone fide business operation capable of doing the work. Some foresters require a performance bond of several thousand dollars be posted. Most require a down payment of 10%, 25%, 50%, at the contract signing. The higher down payments are for the smaller jobs. Can you show all of that?

As RON SCOTT says, ask the landowner to have your name put on the bidders list. If you get the job, good. If you don't, don't sweat it; you're young and learning. Get all your business and financial ducks in a row. Be politely persistent. There will be others you will get.

Ed_K · May 25, 2015, 09:50:14 AM

Take some time and write a business plan, your going to need one anyway. Then go to your bank and apply for a (line of credit) try other banks also. When you get a LoC use it, it's better using the banks money for buying insurance and large repairs. My LoC is interest monthly and payback in 11 months, so I have a few months to get ahead then pay it off.

Logger003 · May 25, 2015, 10:11:02 AM

Like everyone is saying get everything in place. Bid on jobs as they come along, but make sure you can make money on them. Do your best work possible and the work will start finding you instead of you having to find it. I've lost work because of being under bid and I have also been called into a few jobs because my competition didn't do the job the way they said they would. The biggest thing is make a name for yourself. I know it's hard when you first start up but once you prove yourself you will find you maybe busier than you like to be at times.

plasticweld · May 25, 2015, 10:31:56 AM

The best forester is the one on my payroll, otherwise their motives are, "from my experiences" they never ever work in a loggers interest. Like any businessman they have to justify their pay to the land owner and make a living, they are a representative of landowner first.

Don't expect one to act any different and you will never be disappointed.

I am sure there are good consultant foresters out there, not meant as an attack just a reflection of my experiences so please don't be offended if you happed to be that consultant I never met!

jd540b · May 25, 2015, 12:39:03 PM

If a landowner hires a consulting forester, they are working on their behalf and therefor looking out for them. As we all know-there are plenty of bad loggers out there, many of whom present themselves very well and "appear" great. It takes time to build relationships and trust in this business-more than just saying the right stuff. I would be completely miffed if someone came along and tried to worm there way onto one of my clients' land.
Most forester have many crews that they work with regularly and have long standing relationships with that make managing clients land seamless and ultimately cheaper and more lucrative for the landowner, because they don't need to be babysat.
When you are the new kid, you need to slowly work into the game. You unfortunately don't get the same say or respect that the guys that have been around for a while get. Thats how it is here anyway. One hand washes the other-you need to get your hand in there first and give it time.
I say this from both sides of the fence. I am a logger and a consulting forester. I keep the two separate in my business. My forestry clients I have other contractors do the cutting and all my logging I do for other consulting foresters. I will only wear one hat per landowner to eliminate any percieved conflict of interest. The benefit is this has allowed me much experience on both sides of the fence. JMOpinions.

Puffergas · May 25, 2015, 01:44:23 PM

Back in the day, about 20 years a go, we found that bidding on tracks and working with the consulting Forester was the best way to go.... By far..! They need land owners and loggers and they know that. Of course if you make their work easy they'll like you to. They always solved any conflicts in our favor not that there were any real ones. That became our preferred way of buying small tracks of timber...

Jeff

Texas Ranger · May 25, 2015, 02:45:51 PM

Rather than get in a tiff about foresters and loggers, may I comment, your age is/may be a problem. You have youth, strength, desire, etc, but no experience. See if you can work with another logger for a while and gain some of the experience that will keep you alive.

treeslayer2003 · May 25, 2015, 03:22:01 PM

it seems to me that loggers and consultants don't see or think the same way. we should both work on that. what the consultants don't get is the financial difficulty in this business. oh the logger has to have this and has to do that, all that costs......and of course, you guys cost. cost here and cost there, after a while a small wood lot ain't worth much with so much coming of the top.
he is young, yes. but what happens when we are to old and didn't allow the younguns to break in here? who cares? we all better. our industry has been in trouble because of greed for a long time, we should try and change that.

and before y'all consultants get all mad at me, i know we need you all. its just that favoritism is wrong and y'all know it. as a very small operator i get over looked on most bids.
i do not want for work, i turn down jobs. the county foresters like what i do but the "commercial foresters think there is not enough money in working with me. the big loggers are in decline, who do you think will be left?

jd540b · May 25, 2015, 04:01:41 PM

I'm going to play the devils advocate. 1)to be a licensed forester (at least here) you need a four yr degree in forestry. At the tune of about $100,000 to $150,000. That is a substantial loan to pay back. Loggers aren't the only ones in the equation with overhead and debt.
Wood isn't worth nearly what it should be-I figure about half of what it should pay really. But there is only so much to go around. Landowners should not have to pay the price for loggers who overextend themselves financially.
And 2) if I have crews that have worked for me loyally for years and years cutting all kinds of lots good and bad-and have given me work in return by bringing me in on some of their lots for landowners that want a management plan-why is that favoritism to keep giving them work. Honestly, I don't return unsolicited calls from guys i don't know looking for lots to cut.

Farmboy 96 · May 25, 2015, 05:04:33 PM

When i said this is my first job i meant my first one cutting someone else's timber. Ive worked my parents land with my father for as long as i can remember. I started off twitching wood with a farm tractor and winch, at 14 i was put on a saw and was taught how to fell and buck logs properly so as not to damage or ruin the wood. At seventeen I bought my own cable skidder rebuilt the screaming detroit, cleaned and readjusted the temperamental gearmatic 19 and repined and bushed the blade. Growing up whenever we cut wood logs especially it wasn't about quantity but quality. Always tiring to get the highest grade possible rather then just how many logs we can devy out of a tree. I also know how to properly market the wood thats cut. I was raised to never trust a logger or forester and if you wanted the job done right do it yourself but i don't quiet follow that.
Just because I'm 18 doesn't mean I'm not capable of performing the work that needs to be done in the properly manner and that I'm not honest or trustworthy. The forester contacted the landowner today but won't call me back or answer when i call. He's suppose to meet with the owner friday and the owner wants me their to see if theres something that can be done so I'm going to be their. I understand if he says no but he shouldn't be going against his own client and he should have the common decency to call me back. At 18 I am held reliable for my actions so that isn't an issue.

treeslayer2003 · May 25, 2015, 06:10:45 PM

your gonna do fine farm boy, don't be discouraged. be polite and curtious but don't get pushed aside. good luck.

Puffergas · May 25, 2015, 06:54:25 PM

Hi Farm Boy,

Give all the foresters a call and get on their mailing list. Every track will have a day when you and the other bidders will cruse the track. Be prepared for a good work out because these boys walk fast..! That will be a good way to start a working relationship. Only bid what it's worth to you and most tracks you may not even bid on but you will be known.

Jeff

luvmexfood · May 25, 2015, 07:12:46 PM

It's always been aggravating to me when in a business situation someone does not return your phone calls. It's just a common courtesy to me. Even if they just call and say nothing has changed and they will contact you when something has.

Show up for the meeting. Explain the insurance situation in an honest manner. Then if you sense things are not going good maybe suggest that you be given a "trial run" period and if the landowner is not satisfied with your work then the ballgame is over.

It's hard when your young to get started. I always looked younger than I was back when I was around 20. Can remember taking cattle to the livestock market and setting in line to unload. Long lines with sometime a 2 hour wait. Here would come the "pinhookers" swarming around thinking they had found an easy mark. Wouldn't give them the time of day.

We were all young once and I know people like to use existing people they have business relationships with from the past. But, at some point in their career, they were just starting out and someone had to give them a chance. Be it as an individual starting out with his own business or working for someone as an employee. Someone took a chance on them.

Good luck.

Glenn · May 25, 2015, 07:54:20 PM

Years ago when i was a logging foreman one of the workers sons used to come with me to work for the odd day. He even brought his own equipment - made by Tonka !! Years later - he now owns his own successful logging business !! It's nice seeing how he started and built his own company !!