Did i do something wrong

[Phorester]

We are not talking about your experience in the woods.  We are talking about your experience and abilty to run a logging business.

The forester not returning your calls is frustrating and discourteous, but that is not the problem. There's more to being a dependable logger than being able to cut trees, maintain equipment and trucks, rebuilding engines, selling  logs, etc.

I've seen several loggers working for others over the years that thought they could make it on their own. They could cut trees without being killed or killing somebody else, they could drive log trucks, skidders, maintain and repair equipment, etc.   They went out on their own, in a few months or years they were back working for somebody else, because they didn't know how to handle the business end of the business or how to interact with landowners or log buyers. And in failing, they also left some landowners without payment for timber they cut, left logs in the woods, left the job unfinished.

You seem to be looking at this only from your perspective. Again, look at it from the perspective of the people you want to hire you. A consulting forester's or a landowner's perspective. The forester might be thinking; if you have yet to get insurance, what other business aspects do you not have in place? Do you even have the money to buy the timber?  Do you have money for a several thousand dollar down payment? Can you do the bookkeeping necessary to keep your business going year after year?  Can you pay your bills on time, which means that you will not leave the forester or landowner in the lurch because your equipment was repossessed? Do you have the money to repair your skidder if it breaks?   If it does break, will you be able to get it repaired fast and get back on the job, or will it take weeks? Who will do your trucking? You? Can you repair your truck in a reasonable amount of time if it breaks? If you contract the trucking, is that guy dependable? You are throwing up red flags, and the forester, whose job it is to protect the landowner who hired him,  is feeling that you might not be able to handle the job from a business standpoint.

Sounds like you have a solid background in the woods.  Get the business end taken care of, be politely persistent, and you will start getting jobs.

[Ken]

Farmboy 96   When I first started looking for work on my own I ran into more than a few roadblocks.  As I gained experience and a reputation for doing good work jobs began to come out of the blue.  I still get excited every time a number shows up on my phone that I don't recognize.  Might just be a good job in the works. 

Without knowing a thing about you my first impression is that you will do just fine.  Rarely do I see an 18 year old write something that is for the most part grammatically correct and well worded.  I'm sure your work will speak for itself when given the opportunities.  Don't be shy to take on jobs that others are not willing to do.  Although you may not make much on those jobs it will help to build a relationship with landowners.   Don't get too put out when you lose a job that was promising.  Other opportunities will show up to individuals who are motivated.  Good luck

[Gadrock]

Youth and energy....trust....many many bad loggers. I am a logger now but readily see that loggers are one step away from a gravel truck driver. Yes there a re a lot of us that are good decent folk but believe me we are not talking about the most reputable folks out there selling their wares. Well that is the way it is here. BUT there are some of the best most personable professional folk too. What I am getting at is which will you be? In only a few monthe the truth will be evident. Perserverance and integrity are a beginning. Deligence and a bit of luck are mixed in there too.
    Personally I am pulling for you. In a few months I want to ready how you overcame these obstacles. If you do your reputation will be intact. All of us here will be ready to pat you on the back. I am looking forward to that moment.

    Good luck.

David G

carry on

[Bill_G]

Could be any number of reasons , I have worked for many foresters over the past 40 years . 99% of them very good , but just because someone has a degree & license does not mean they are above board . Every now and then you find a forester that has their own crews and are only looking at their wallet . The first thing I always did before working with a new Forester was to check them out . If you get in with a Forester that has a bad reputation it will affect you also . You might want to check with some sawmills and see if they might have lots to cut , this is a good way to build your reputation and meet more Foresters .

[OH logger]

I have to jump in here. I started young too and I don't completely agree with Phorester. our forester jobs around here have to be paid in full before cutting any trees. with that being said as long as you do a good job in the woods to please the landowner AND forester, how you financially run your business is beside the point. sounds crude to say it like this but your book keeping skills are not their business, its yours. now how the job looks IS their business. I would try your butt off to please everyone, even the pains that want to make you struggle (and you will get them). when I was starting I took the jobs that no one else wanted and the jobs that were high graded and they left the junk, not all great money makers but my name got around and SLOWLY better jobs came in and it got better. but I did a lot of contract work which taught me a ton, and the jobs I "bought" was direct from the landowner and on shares(less risk) that were generous to the landowner. I also put a sign with my name at ALL jobs by the road to advertise. I had the sign made so it looks professional and I still use the sign to this day, it works. by no means am I tryin to be a smart ass but I have been were you are and would love to help. I didn't come from a logging background so many thought I was doomed from the start. with hard work and wise choices you'll do fine with some patience. stay safe out there

[Farmboy 96]

My book keeping skills are fine. You have to be somewhat good at handling money/bills if at seventeen yrs old you bust your butt off to by your own skidder in cash. Right know i have about 3k saved up why would i just starting out sign up for a liability insurance when i have no work. In my case right now I've told the LO about it and said if we come to an agreement and have this job I'm calling the insurance company that I checked with and signing up before we even sign a contract and she said it was fine and that she understood. Now I'm not CLP certified either which is probably another strike against me with the forester but last year during my Junior year of high school I took a forestry class at a local tech school and got my apprenticeship which is the same thing but we supposably didn't have enough cutting hours to get the actual certification. I took the same test as the professionals do to get CLP certified and passed it perfectly with a 100 and i still have the paperwork saying so. I don't know if that might help a little bit in persuading the forester that I do know/have the proper skills to complete the job both physically and business wise.

[Farmboy 96]

With the trucking end of it I have one of the most respected and loyal loggers in my area doing the job. The guy doing the trucking has worked with this forester before and they get along fine. The man trucking has known me all my life and also has no problem with me either. I put up a couple loads on the landing call him that night and the next day he's there to pick it up. The loads are going under his contract at the local pulp mills but mine at all log yards/sawmills.

[eichenberg93]

Farmboy 96
I have been reading all your post from when you started posting here on the forum. It sounds a lot like when me and my twin brother started 3 years ago. We started looking for wood to cut in the last few months of high school. We looked more for pine because there was a good local market and compared to hardwood its easier to find and there was only 2 sorts and had a good idea what you could pay for both before you started. It took a while to cut just one 7 cord load of wood. It was a place to start and on some pieces of timber we went "collage" did not make much but learned a lot more then money could buy ;) For us we never worked with local foresters due to the fact that all the stumpage was due before a single stick of wood was cut. At that time we didn't have the means to  pay that kind of money. It worked for us to pay as we cut it by the cord. A lot of the lots were in the area of 40-100 cords and for most of local outfits there just wasn't the volume to move equipment to cut it.
We knew right from the beginning it was going to be a hard road to go down and to just get our name out into the area. The first year from a business stand point was very difficult. It got better the year after. As long as you can look back a year ago and see where you have gained something from a business stand point(equipment, contacts, reputation, etc.) I feel that means a lot at the end of the day,  We looked out and stopped at a lot of houses to find lots to cut. for us it was about 1 out of every 3-4 places that we found something. Overtime we started having people contact us about cutting some wood.
Now we are too busy with wood to cut and for us it is a very good feeling to have. We are starting to get more equipment so we can do a more efficient job and produce a larger quantities in a timely manner. It a lot longer of a post I was trying to write but I hope it help out in some way or another. Its always nice to see some else in our age group that is motivated to start logging. Its a hard business to get a foot in the door but it is well worth it.   

[beenthere]

Farmboy 96
A thought that may work in your favor, and maybe because you are in a family with woodlands, is to join the SWOAM (Small Woodland Owners Assoc of Maine)  http://www.swoam.org/

Maybe look into when and where their functions such as field days, etc. as places to meet folks and rub elbows with them. There may be other organizations that come to mind as well. Being here on the Forestry Forum is one you have touched already.

Another thought reading your posts, is that you may be a little doubtful in your own mind given that you mention "young, and needing help getting started". Try to shed some of those hidden feelings and take this bull by the horns. Having this meeting with LO and forester this week is a good start. Keep your cool and don't try to over-power the situation, but stand firm in your belief that you can do this and that you are confident that the LO will be happy with your results.

I wish you well, and would like to see more young men (and women) have the confidence and accomplishments that you have at this point in your life.

[so il logger]

Farmboy

I come from a logging family, was raised up in it. I am not going to write a long post but will tell you the best way to get a foot in the door is take some contract work from a local mill. Do everything they expect and then some, be polite and friendly to landowners and the foreman alike. Do not get agitated easy or at all around them and it will pay off. Trust me get insurance, especially personal injury and be licensed and bonded if that exist's there. Not all loggers are crooks or whatever, make a good name for yourself and take pride in protecting the wood's for a future generation. That's what it is all about afterall, someday another young guy will need timber to harvest 

[terry f]

   Does your dad have friends, or friends of friends that might need something cut? My advise would be to get a job in town and do this as a side job until you have a track record with a few good looking lots, and happy customers.

[plasticweld]

Reading through the posts FarmBoy I only want to add one thing that is not mentioned and it is the key to being successful as a logger.

It is  not Foresters and being able to work with them, it is not bookkeeping skills either and in reality it is not even being the best operator or cutter out there. All of that stuff helps.

Being able to buy timber is what separates guys who log for a living and guys who make money logging.  A Forester has to hustle a job just like you do, search the woods track down the landowner and make a deal.  That is the job of a successful logger as well.  The deals you make and the price you pay for timber are the difference between this being,  a lot work and little pay and being a good business.

I personally will not bid on timber, as far as I am concerned once a job is up for bid you are now in the process of seeing for how little you can work for.  One other poster mentioned working for a mill which in reality is the equivalent of seeing for how cheap you can log for.  I have worked for mills, made every mistake out there you can make many times over.

I hustle my own wood and I hustle a lot of it. I hire the Forester to work for me to mark if I need too, find lines when needed and help with any permits.  The key is when needed.

I consider myself successful today because I make good money logging when few seem to be able.  I wanted you to know that your ability as a salesman trump all other skills.  You have the basics in skills, you will never ever stop learning how to be better at the craft.  The best logger in the world without the ability to put together a good deal with a land owner will just be the hardest working guy out there.

Just so you know I am often a guy other loggers grumble about.  I pay cash up front, I am not shy about buying land and all, I seem to be able to land jobs others don't, all without the help of foresters or sawmills. If you are lucky and successful, people are always going  say something negative about you.  I personally hope some day you are that guy.  Keep swinging for every good deal you miss there are five waiting for you to be found

[BargeMonkey]

 Everyone has hit the nail on the head on each aspect. Find someone to sub contract too, do that for a bit till you have your feet under you. This is a slow process, believe me i wanted to have it all overnight. Good luck and hopefully you find some decent work.

[thecfarm]

I myself have a logger that cuts my land,George Merrill,you must have heard of him. It's hard to be out on your own,unless you have years behind you. It takes time to get your name out there. When going to check on jobs,dress clean,walking the lot alone or with the land owner, know where the property lines are. Ask them where they would like the landing,keep that neat and clean too. That is just about what most people will judge your job on. Lay down some hay when you are done. Don't leave cut offs in sight of the road. Good luck to you.

[Ron Wenrich]

One thing to consider when going to the meeting on Friday is to do a test area.  Let the forester mark it and they let you cut on their terms.  That way the forester and landowner hasn't committed the whole process to you.  It allows you to get your feet wet with this forester.  When you remove all doubts, then they can mark another block.  It also helps in your cash flow where you don't need huge timber payments. 

The most successful loggers I've known are the ones that are best at marketing timber.  It doesn't matter if they buy from a consultant or from the landowner.  They can make money on any type of job, because they know their markets.  You will need to be constantly looking for better markets.  Never become complacent.

[Farmboy 96]

Yes I know of George Merrill he is actually a distant cousin of mine. I offered to do a trial run with the LO and going to suggest it to the forester. The front half of the property is pretty much all low grade hardwood firewood, pulp and a few pallet logs. The back of it has some nice big pine and oak. I offered that maybe just give me a small plot say five acres thats on the front half of the property to cut and if they don't like my work then I will pull right out and they won't have to hear from me again.
I actually got a call earlier this morning from a man who lives about thirty minutes away from me and saw one of my business cards and wondered if Id be willing to pull out quiet a bit of firewood for him (25-30 crds) so I guess I'm starting to get some small business.

[Corley5]

Be patient.  Rome wasn't built in a day.  While you're being patient further your education.  Take some business management and natural resource classes at the local community college and get your official CLP.  What you've got is nice but you need to get the real thing.  You need what's recognized at the professional level.  Don't quit learning.  Stay on top of it.

[Phorester]

Everyone has hit the nail on the head on each aspect. Find someone to sub contract too, do that for a bit till you have your feet under you. This is a slow process, believe me i wanted to have it all overnight. Good luck and hopefully you find some decent work.

A pretty good summary. Get set up as a logging business, get some experience, and you will make it.

[beenthere]

Along the lines mentioned by Corely5, look at the events scheduled on the SWOAM calendar in this link. Looks to be a lot for more education as your time permits (in addition to meeting and knowing folks).
http://www.swoam.org/Events/Calendar.aspx

[BargeMonkey]

 Last time i took a silviculture class i heard nothing but crying from alot of guys over 50, wanted nothing to do with regulation, foresters, continued education. Change is coming to this industry, stay ahead of it, im forced into MSHA, USCG training and TLC every year which eats 7-21 days a yr, dont like it but its the way it is. While you have the time take advantage of it and get everything you can, ME is a little diff than NY but the list of TLC guys down here is short, once youve got a decent reputation the work finds you.
Another thing, and like Corley said Rome wasnt built in a day. Look how many guys on here, or loggers i know in general work somewhere fulltime and log on the side, older machines break and trying to feed yourself and cut and turn wrenches is hard, i dont know your situation but why not jump into the snake pit slowly.

[Corley5]

An understanding, patient woman with a good paying job with benefits helps tremendously  ;) ;D   And that's no joke 

[lopet]

Lucky you !!!!!!!!!  8) 8)            And that's no joke 

[Ed_K]

 X2 what corley said.

[John Mc]

Farmboy -

Look at it from the forester's point of view: He probably has loggers that he works with regularly. He knows what kind of work they do, and can match their skills to the jobs he has.  In some respects, it doesn't matter how good you are. He doesn't KNOW how good you are, and he can't check on your past jobs if the work you have done is all on your family's land (is there really any chance your mother would tell him you stink at this?).

You may be great, but he's taking a risk putting you on one of his clients' land. It's going to be tough getting over the hump with him. One thing that might help is references. You've mentioned a couple of guys you know that seem to know him (the guy you'll use for trucking, for example). Have any of them seen your work? Would they be willing to be listed as a reference by you?  A good word to him from someone who has some idea of your skills as a logger would help. Also, a good word from someone who knows what kind of person you are would also help. The more he knows and respects these references, the more likely their comments are to open doors for you.

I know when we were hiring at the wire mill where I used to work, we always like hiring folks who grew up on a farm. They generally did what it took to get the job done right, and had a wider range of skills than some applicants.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, references should surely help when the forester does not know you or is familiar with your work.