The Forestry Forum

Hello all!

I've been considering persuing forestry as a profession for a couple of years now, even though right now I am currently attending a graphic design school working for an associate degree.  I live in Nashville, TN, and I'm 24 years old.  I've previously done a little research on the forestry profession, but the interest is becoming stronger, and I'm seeking out information about it more and more these days. 
Working in a commercial printshop, and being around the graphic design work environment has  led me to believe if I stick soley w/ design, I will be not be satisfied/fullfilled.  I love the outdoors.  I've been an avid backpacker since I was 18, enjoying the Smoky Mountains here in TN.  I want a career that makes a positive impact on the world, in as many ways as possible.  In graphic design, sure, designing for people is a good thing, people have design needs, but in the long run does it make the world a better place?  The idea of taking care of the earth for future generations is something I want to be a part of.  In the back of my mind is always a voice saying:  "What are you doing to preserve the earth?  Which side are you on?"

The University of Tennessee at Knoxville has a Forestry program that I am interested in.  Tennessee is my home, and I'd like to study here if I can, and since the Smoky Mountains are nearby, I presume it must be a decent school to study Forestry at....am I wrong??


Some facts of who i am:
--After school, I'm willing to work virtually anywhere...I plan on traveling extensively for the sake of traveling one day anyway.
--Experiences are more important to me than money and materials.  As long as I have enough money to live comfortably(perhaps help support a family), and stay out of debt, I'll be satisfied.
--I'm willing to work hard at studying at school, and to remain a student after school....If my heart will be in it, I know I will have no problem staying on top of the latest scientific discoveries.
--And simply, I feel more at peace in the outdoors...and knowing that I'm doing my part to care for that will give me peace of mind, too.


I'm good w/ mathematics, though sketchy in Algebra.  I've never attempted any math beyond Algebra, and seriously doubt I can handle it...does that exclude me from being a good forester?
On the other hand, I'm very good at communication, especially written.  I read and write well, and am becoming more and more savvy w/ computers.

These are some of my basic attributes.  If some of you would give me some feedback on how practical a career in forestry could be for me, or give me general advice, I'd appreciate it! 
I discovered this board last night, and I am so glad I did.   So much information. 
Thanks for having me!

~Brandon

Brandon,

I want to answer with your statement

QuoteThe idea of taking care of the earth for future generations is something I want to be a part of.  In the back of my mind is always a voice saying:  "What are you doing to preserve the earth?  Which side are you on?"

being the center of the conversation.

Forestry is a great occupation.  it isn't a "salvation of the earth" type job.  Those who approach the environment with the feeling that some people are destroyers and they are Saviour's usually end up being  the ones that are way out on a limb, to coin a phrase, and lose the reality that nature includes human beings as well as earth quakes.

Foresters want the best for a forest.  They care about the health of the wildlife, the stability of the land as well as the growth of the trees.  It doesn't stop there though.  They also are aware that the products of the forest can be used or wasted.  They are schooled to judge when those products can be harvested and the best means to go about it.

Here is where many, who have jumped on the conservation bandwagon, lose track of reality and become preservationists.  Keep an open mind as you learn what the forests provide for humanity and how fauna fits into the existence of life on our planet.  Never lose sight of the fact that Humans, although at the top of the food chain, are still a part of Nature and our use of what she provides doesn't make us destroyers.

You will also find that supporting a family is more than being able to help, and just staying out of debt is condemning them to a subsistence lifestyle, that may fit you, but, isn't conducive to their success.  It's something that youth overlooks in its exuberance to reach goals without having the experiences to guide them.  Most of us all entered life with the world's salvation as a goal, or at least the control of a country, large corporation or piece of equipment.  I mention the equipment because it is driving the Fire Truck that attracts us to that occupation long before we are aware that fireman also jeopardize themselves to pull victims from a burning building.  It's just a matter of experience and we all should give ourselves the learning room in life to have learning experiences before we judge our path as being the 'right' one for us or not.

Here you will meet Foresters, woodsmen and others with life experiences that will be helpful to you in discerning your goals.  Be aware of the pitfalls of following someone who is only following a dream. 

You are surrounded by good schools. The U. of Tennessee is definitely one, but, also within shouting distance are Clemson, The University of Georgia in Athens, Auburn and a myriad of smaller schools that provide good Agricultural backgrounds.  Big schools are tough.  It's like trying to make it in a big city without knowing anyone.  Make sure that you have some sort of network and community about you before you dive into a school where personal attention may be difficult to obtain.   

How practical a career in Forestry will be for you really depends on what you expect from life.  There are many aspects of the field that are careers in their own right.  Forestry uses Entomology, but Entomology is a field of its own.  So will you find Genetics, botany and, even to some extent, Veterinary Medicine.  Don't approach life, or school, with blinders and a narrow view.  Dabble in as much as your time will allow and Listen to those who have gone before you.

Brandon,

You just got some serious words of wisdom from Tom. Conservation is a good thing, but becareful in realizing you don't have a right to destroy others livelyhood.

If you want to preserve nature - that takes money - lots of it. I can tell you that if you are wanting to save nature, get a really good job and buy land or contribute to that.  Preserving nature because someone is paying you to do it is just a job.  Someone has to pay for the preservation - or anything else for that matter.

Working in forestry might be an important contribution - but it isn't yours, it is those who are paying your salary. Trust me,  not everyone who works for me is even concerned about the environment - they are happy for the paycheck.

 first welcome to the forum Brandon
take Tom's words to heart but get in touch with the local state forestry and talk to some of the foresters
Thay can give you a lot of very good info.

Thanks, guys.  I'll try and slow down and breathe and take it one step at a time as I go about this. 

Brandon,

   Ditto what Tom said.  I have a degree in forestry and conservation and have worked for state government, private industry, and myself in this field. Most of the jobs will be in state government or the forest industry. You will find the salary in most of the governments jobs to be very low for the education and skill levels involved. To begin with, I found that not to be a problem, but once I realized that I like to eat regularly, my thoughts changed. :) The jobs will range from timber sales to recreation management on to enviromental regulation. Industial jobs will usually be involved in the havesting/prodution/procurement of timber. I think a "Park Service" type of job is more what you are looking for. If you go this route, please educate yourself on the difference between conservation (wise use) and preservation (lock everyone out and throw away the key). I encountered many people in my career that did not have a clue how "nature" works. Unfortunately, the jobs they gravitated to tended to be in enviromental regulation or "education". Well meaning they might be, "saving the earth" they are not.

    If you really have a passion for the outdoor field, look at volunteering with your state's forestry or wildlife agencies. You will gain some experience, make some contacts, and maybe this will help you determine if you really like this type of work.

   Also, take a look at the curriculm at the foretry school of your choice. You will find that science and math are stressed. Calculus and statistics will be required.

   Good luck.


   Mark

I've been in forestry for close to 30 years. I've worked on just about every side of the fence possible with the exception of being a tree hugger.

The field of forestry is multi-faceted. There are many types. Researchers, college professors, state and federal land managers, industrial, consulting foresters working with various landowners -  just to name a few. The "field" forester has one goal in mind - growing trees. Good ones also care about doing this properly, that is doing the least amount of damage to the environment as possible.

Government jobs are difficult to obtain and can be difficult ones to hold on to. I've been "bumped" out of mine twice while working for the Commonwealth of mASSachusetts. Not to mention the political factors.

Industrial foresters are faced with producing logs at the lowest cost possible, no matter what the weather. Competition is always nipping at your heals. And are always trying to please their employer AND the supplier.

Consulting can be successful - depending on the area and the attitude of landowers in that area. Some feel the forester is just another middleman picking their pockets.......until they find out the deal they made with the logger/sawmill wasn't so good and look at the mess they left me. That being said there are some excellent loggers and mills who care about their reputation.

All in all, it can be a difficult vocation to make a living at. It's good for a young person who doesn't need much, it can be more difficult as time goes on and the expectation of an increased salary, benefits, etc.... there aren't any rich foresters out there, not to mention the wear and tear on the body.

I've had great times and wouldn't trade them for anything. I've also had times when I was wondering if I had to pick up returnable bottles to make ends meet. I guess it all depends on what type of life style you can live with and what type of position you end up with and can hold on to.

Good luck with your decision.

What was weird is that when I was in High School my dream job would have been to be a forest ranger. Out of the office - in the outdoors, etc. But, I saw that it was going to be really hard to get a job - it seems a lot of other folk had the same idea.

Roll the clock forward about 25 years and now I own a reforestation project. I have a full-time forestry engineer as well as workers, etc. What is weird about it was that I had forgotten my dream - until after I started the new company.

You can always keep the dream alive, but you might just shift around a bit. Oh, but I still working in an office most of the time.

One nice thing about a degree, after you have it, no one can take it away from you.  It doesn't guarantee a job, but it does open up a lot of doors that are closed to others.

I got my degree 35 years ago.  I've worked as a mill hand, choker setter, log scaler, feller, procurement forester, consulting forester, utility forester and head sawyer.  Many of those positions don't require a BS degree.  But, it helped me do a better job.

Foresters aren't the ones that do too much work in the woods anymore.  That is relegated to technicians and starting foresters.  Foresters with experience usually get bumped up into the planning and administrative matters of the business.  Technicians usually don't move up the ladder without any education, no matter how much experience.  You can get an Associates degree in forestry.

There are several avenues you can take with a BS degree.  I know of a few loggers that have the degree, and they do outstanding work.  I also know a timber agent that has an Associates degree in forestry and a BA in business.

I went to school with one fellow that had a major in forestry and a minor in journalism.  That isn't something you see very often.  That can open up a few doors, especially if you like to write about the environment and travel.  The combinations are as many as you would like.

As for not getting rich, I don't know about that.  I've always managed to make as much as many other degreed people.  I've even made out better than most, considering that I don't put in those long 60 hour weeks for a salary anymore.  But, its the way I've built myself in the trade. 

The best thing to do is to figure out where you want to go and what you want to be, then figure out a way of getting there.  There are a lot of different paths.  None are wrong, as long as you're happy.   ;)

Brandon,
Have you considered a recreation degree at all? You can work outdoors, travel, work close to or far from home, and help people and the environment. Both UT and MTSU have rec programs. I am minoring in rec at MTSU. They have three tracs...theraputic rec, rec admin, and outdoor rec. I know many rec graduates who have gone on to run summer camps, work for county or city rec departments, work in therapudic horseback programs for disabled children, work for state/federal park/forest services. There is a wide variety of options. I am certainly not trying to talk you out of forestry, just trying to throw out another option that might coincide with your intrests/goals.

Also, I just remembered your graphic design degree. That gives you many more options. I also enjoy the Smokies, and I think about all of the promotional literature/pamphlets they produce.

Anyways, these guys have said some great things to you already. Where in Nashville are you? I am in Franklin.

David

So working for the government is not all it's cracked up to be?  ...what about benefits, or retirement w/ the gov't?

I like the idea of having a BS in forestry w/ an associate degree in graphic design.   Who design's the Forest Service's websites?  ;D 

So the forestry field is pretty wide... I really like that.  Tailor-made like.  It sounds challenging, in a self-motivating kind of way.  Being my own boss is very favorable to me.  And I dont mind working in an office.  I just dont want to be wishing 20 years from now I'd persued that forestry notion when I didn't....But the idea that there is not a clear-cut path in this profession is what turns me on.  I like the variety you guys speak of.


Hey David!  I live in Forest Hills in Nashville....pretty much on the Brentwood/Nashville border.  I'm renting a basement apartment from a widowed lady who lives in FL, and I'm working full time during the day at a printshop in Cool Springs, and going to class at night basically in Donelson. --> International Academy of Design and Technology.

Thanks again, guys!  I so appreciate your sharing of experience and wisdom w/ me. 

There are two approaches to take in life - you can decide I love something and study it and try to make a job out of it. I used to see this all the time in foreign autos (about 25 years ago when they were not so common) - a person would love cars, so he would get a job as a partsman or a mechanic... and grow to hate the things. Sometimes, the best way to kill a love for something is to make it your job. Not always, but I have seen it enough times to mention it.

The reason is that if you don't enjoy the "work" part of it, and think it is play - you will soon detest it. Because it IS work.

The other mode is to do something you are really good at that pays well. Then that will allow you the time to do your hobbies. Or, you can decide to live on less, which also gives you time to do the things you wish. I enjoy my work because I decided to enjoy it. It isn't always enjoyable if you know what I mean.

I really agree in cross-training. If you can do it - this opens up a lot of opportunities. I am not referring to time in a classroom either (though that is one way). Those who continue learning all their life never seem to find it hard to find a new job. Those who go to school, get a profession and never crack another book can find that their career moved past them... Not a good thing to find out when you are in your late forties to early fifties that no one wants you because you are out of date by a decade or more.

I am one of the ignorant ones as far as college education - I have none. I only own three businesses and starting a fourth right now.  ::)

just my dos colones

I agree with Crtreedude. I've been a CAD man for 15 years and build repair computers and networks. I started off loving the work but now I get physically depressed when I start to think about a computer. Over the past year or so I've been trying to do some side line consulting work in a totally different field (electrostatic precipitators) for paper mills, concrete producers etc.

DMax, I have a friend on the soutwest side of Nashville, Belmead,  that was a technician for me for several years.  Talking with someone like him, who sees the underbelly of forestry (work) may be the best way to start.  Start out with the state people, there are those who like working for the state, I did for 15 years, and have been a consultant for 25. 

Money can be tight, jobs hard to find, and frustration levels that wander all over the chart.  But I would do nothing else for my life.

Oh, my tech friend was a preacher, really hard to train some one that has grand ideas that have little to do with the real world, so anticipate that what you see now may not be what you see in a few years. 

After 38 years with the USDA-Forest Service and 11 years as a consultant, I continue this career because of the exercise. ;) Also, where else can one get paid for walking and always seeing new areas. :D

I'm 6 years with the feds, 13 years working for forestry consulting firms, and now just over two years with the state.  I like the state so far... although the traveling was fun for a while.

Private pays the best, but you work lots of hours.  Government pay is all over and depends on agency or state, but you get to keep a normal life, except during fire season. ;) 

The best pay is the most risky, acquiring lands and managing them.  It helps to have access to someone with loads of dough, try multimillion dollar credit lines, to be successful.  You can buy smaller tracks but in this area, buying bulk pencils out the best.

Tom put it very well.

As said before there are many aspects of the career, but if you tend to be a preservationist yau may be headed toward the wrong direction, unless you want to work for an agency like The Nature Conservancy.  Point is, forestry's main goal is to grow trees better and faster for the market.  To get the best growth for a good rate of return.  But that said MONEY is not all of it, healthy forests are part of it many people want trees to look at and hike in and some gov. agencys have them for many purposes, and harvesting is an element to ensure the overall forest health, if done at the correct times and the correct amount.  Nowadays as said before land development is a big part of it, your boss may buy a pristine tract of timber, clearcut it and then divide it off for tract houses.  If you can not be a part of this you may want to look into another aspect of the field if you cann't promote such practices. 

Also forestry is not the only career related to the outdorrs, as said before there is Parks and Recreation degrees available.  There are Wildlife biology degrees and agriculture degrees, and many others. 

All big schools are not big in all aspects. I currently atted Clemson. Although the Fresman classes are large once in the Forestry classes they are not so big that you get lost.  The forestry class that enter here at clemson is usually around 35 people. If you already have many core classes it is likely that at any state school you could start as a sophmore and finish in 3 years. There are many like minded people here as well as all other large schools in forestry.  There is generally a common background and list of activities shared by most. 

UT did not have a very large forestry program several years ago (or at least their forestry club was very small).  I do not know the enrolement but at conclave 2004 they only had a hand full of people there.  UGA is a very good school, as is any of the southern schools of forestry UT included.  I am not trying to start a who's school is better thread.

You mentioned math.  Forestry is very math and calculation orinted.  A strong understanding of statistics and algebra is required. At clemson we were required to take an elementary calculas class.  Other math related classes not in the department can be classes like soil science and Physics and chemistry.  These all depend on the school you attend and what their degree requires.  Although to be acredited by SAF (society of American
Foresters), they all require similar of the same curriculums to meet their standards.

I'm not an expert on the field and not tring to be.  I'm young, problaly half to a quater of these other guys here but these are just the things that i have seen in my experience.

-Nate
Graduate Assistant
Clemson University

Wadda ya mean, 1/2  to a 1/4 our age!

Let's see here, I am x and he is just graduating -oops, I think you are right!

Thanks again, ctreedude, Tillaway, Ron, Texas Ranger

QuoteForestry is very math and calculation orinted.  A strong understanding of statistics and algebra is required. At clemson we were required to take an elementary calculas class.

Thanks Pullinchips.  So, algebra is actually used outside test taking.  :o   
When I last attempted algebra, I had very little enthusiasm or ambition to study it(I was planning on being a writer at that time).  I gave it minimal effort....and because of that I've always written myself off as the "can't get it type."  Perhaps if I actually cracked a book on my own or w/ a tutor I might get it....  ? 
So, in everyday forestry work, algebra and calculus is used?

You also mentioned rec. degrees....I'm more interested in the science behind trees and forestry.  I have a genuine interest in trees. 
And no, I don't think I'm interested in preservation.  After reading this thread, my understanding of the difference in the two has changed...for the better.  Tom helped me realize that humans are a part of nature, and what we use is not "destroying."  I have a tendency to be too critical of our human consumption, but I see now that I need to work on seeing it as necessary, and not BAD.  And in a way, foresters do preserve the land by getting the most out of it, right?  If there were no foresters, we'd have no trees left at all.  So that's what I'm interested in.  Actually being of SERVICE to humanity via growing trees better.



On further reflection:

BEfore I write a rec degree off, mayube I should get a better understanding of what that entails.  UT has a Forestry Wildland Recreatoin degree...what is that exactly?
How is the job market in that field?
What sort of work is it?
Does it use algebra and/or calculus?

I don't think there are a whole lot of private sector jobs for rec majors.  Most of those jobs tend to be at the government level, and some of those don't pay very well.

I didn't do that well in calculus.  I did OK in the other math courses and you will use statistics in many fields.  You will be taking samples, then constructing the current forest from your data.  Then, you will project what the future forest will be given certain input.  What that input is will be dependent on your interpretation of the data. 

I do take issue with money being the driving issue in forest management.  It may be in certain situations, may not be in others.  When you look only at the monetary value of the commodity, you lose the real value of the forest.  Trees have intrisic values that are hard to measure in dollars.  Aesthetic, wildlife, erosion control, and now carbon sequestration.  Too often the dollar value wins out, and we are all poorer.  This doesn't imply preservation, but wise use.

Brandon,

No algebra and calculus are not used evry day.  But to get your degree you will have to prove at some point you had a pretty decent understanding of it.  Like ron said statistics and statistical interpretaions are used more with a little algebra every now and then.  Finalcial skills are needed in many sectors of the job.  But it will all depend on what your job is and what your responsibilites are.

Nate

BRANDON, a College degree is more than just learning how to perform a job.  When I went to college, the first 2-1/2 years were almost all basic knowledge courses. Algebra, physics, statistics, chemistry, biology, literature, foreign language. Dull, dull, dull.  But you need these to form the building blocks toward being able to understand and learn the forestry courses. 

Literature and other English courses help in your basic education to help you interact with people.  This will help getting a job, getting promoted, interacting with people in general throughout your career and your life. Foresters work with people just as much if not more than we do with trees.  The best Foresters understand both and continue to learn about both throughout their lives.

To expand a little on what Tom said, never forget that people are as much a part of nature as the rarest flower or fish.  We evolved on this planet along with every other living thing here.  We need a part in the forests and waters of this planet just as every other animal.  We have evolved to use and manipulate the environment more than any other animal needs to.  Example - to deal with winter, bears learned to hibernate. Humans learned to build houses out of trees and heat them. I don't think it's inaccurate to say that humans depend on the forests of the world more than any other animal on earth.  From boards to chemicals, we cannot live on this planet without cutting trees.  So we need to know how to grow and manage forests for our own survival and quality of life along with all the other animals that make their home there.

Humans also have the intellect and capacity to understand and manage the earth's resources to correct past mistakes and to make the environment better for the future.  That's what Foresters should strive to do in their own career in their own little corner of our world.  Hopefully that's what I'm doing in mine.

A degree in forestry can take you in many directions other than pure forestry if you decide later on that it's not your cup of tea.  But that basic Batchelors degree is the first stepping stone.

Ron, I feel reassured about the calculus thing hearing that you weren't Einstein at it.  I'm willing to tackle it with all I got...though I got a feeling it'll take some effort.  Thanks.

Thanks Pull and Phorester. 
Someone mentioned earlier about being able to graduate w/ a BS in 3 years because of transferring general ed credits...I'll have several, so I might be looking at the same situation, which also makes things look a little brighter. 
And Phorester what you said about the forestry degree leading me to different directions if things turn out to not be in my liking, too, is reassuring.  Thanks.


:P

There are jobs out there ya just gotta find em.  And you never know what you want to get into until you go to do it.  I went to college because originally I wanted to be a forest ranger.  After I got harassed by them a few times I changed my mind.  A few of them are nice understanding guys, but most of the ones I've run into are not so nice, and I don't wanna be 'that guy'.  Now I'm looking for something else. Long story short, is don't get too centered on one thing, and be open to new ideas.

btw, with my associates, I have about 45 forestry/forestry related credits, and about 30 non forestry, not sure about the exact numbers.  The reason I have this many is each of 4 semesters had 16-19 credits, and an extra 8 week, 8 credit 'summer session' that was just like a normal job, it was kind of cool.  2 weeks each, 8 hr days, most of the time spent out 'doin it'  95% hands on.  It was cool bein out in the woods :), but then came the dreaded paperwork  :-X

Good luck in whatever you do and if you're ever stuck on somethin, this is almost definitely the place to get your answer, lots of smart guys who know their stuff.

Jon,

You bring up a good point - a lot of time a job looks romantic and cool, until you realize what it would be like trying to keep people from burning down a forest because they didn't take the time to know how to take care of a campfire - or that they should cleanup after themselves when they leave.

The first few times are cool - you are agreeable, etc. But, after a while your good naturedness takes a beating - and you want to beat the next idiot with a piece of firewood who doesn't put out his fire correctly.

Working with the public is hard. Those who do and manage to keep their sanity are a rare breed.

Often a good idea is to ask someone who has been doing the job for 10 years what they dislike about it. And then see if you can stand that.

A lot of people get into the software business and then find out about the late nights, working without sleep - INCREDIBLE stress at times - clueless pointy haired bosses who have never coded, bad or non-existant specs, and of course the nerd in the next cubicle who doesn't believe in bathing...

These of course are the things they don't tell you about. All you hear is that the money is good and you get to play with computers.  :D

..."and of course the nerd in the next cubicle who doesn't believe in bathing..."

Oh yeah, we haven't talked about Foresters and bathing yet....... ;D

I walked into this Forestry degree program with a bachelor's in electrical engineering and a master's in management. They still built me a 3 year plan. Turns out I was missing onesies and twosies. A second chemistry class, art appreciation, a social science. But the biggest problem to completing the program in two years was the prerequisite string. Since they can't offer every class every quarter, you just can't git 'er done in two calendar years.

That said, they built a two year program for me and said I could ask for waivers and take prerequisite classes simultaneously. As a "non-traditional" student, I get a lot of credit for past experiences and the track record for non-traditional students is very good. It's just easier the second time around. I'm currently in the Botany - Dendrology - Ecology sequence simultaneously and the director of the School of Forestry didn't even look up from his paperwork to sign off on the waiver.

Course you'd better have the grades if you expect to pull it off more than once.

If I do proceed to go to school for forestry, I'll be about 30 years old when I get out of school....how many people have you all known enter the forestry work-force at the age or later?  Riles, it sounds like you got a late start on forestry....are there any kind of handicaps for starting later like I may be doing?  (hope I don't sound like too young of a pup. )

Your other life and work experience will be a plus when entering the field.

By the looks of things, I'll be entering the forestry field sometime in my 30's and I already have a degree  :-\

And how old will you be if you don't go to forestry school?  The answer:  the same age. 

When I was in school, we had several guys who had spent 4 years in the military and some in Vietnam.  One guy was going to med school.  It didn't seem to slow them down any, and they were better students.  They had already gone through the partying stage.   ;D

Quote from: BrandonTN on December 29, 2005, 10:23:36 PM
If I do proceed to go to school for forestry, I'll be about 30 years old when I get out of school....how many people have you all known enter the forestry work-force at the age or later?  Riles, it sounds like you got a late start on forestry....are there any kind of handicaps for starting later like I may be doing?  (hope I don't sound like too young of a pup. )

When I went to forestry school there was a lady in her 40's and a guy in his mid 50's taking courses. ;)

I know a couple that had AS degrees and went back for the BS.  I worked with another that did not start college until he was 30.  Another had a degree in Civil engineering and went back a forestry degree at around 30.  That combination served him very well, he built large sawmill complexes and managed the timber lands that supplied them. 

QuoteThey had already gone through the partying stage.

;D ....let's just say I've done my share.

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

I don't think I have any handicaps starting my forestry degree at age 44. I have a different set of problems that I find easier to address than my younger cohorts. I have to commute 63 miles one way because my wife is still active duty military. I have three kids that will suck up all my time when I walk in the door, so class work gets done at school. I can't stay up late studying anymore because my brain goes to fuzz.

On the other hand, I'm up everyday at 5 am and it doesn't bother me. I've learned the magic of coffee and can now concentrate on the professor in 8 o'clock classes. I don't have money problems or women problems or worry about having laundry done (OK, I never actually WORRIED about that last one in the early days.)

Non-traditional students are more and more common in 4 year universities these days. They do better for all kinds of reasons. Maturity, experience, desire, and the fact that your brain is just wired differently at this age.

If you want to make a good impression on your instructors, here's the best advice: Open your mouth. Confidence is probably the characteristic most missing from the students just out of high school. They want to be invisible and not embarrass themselves in front of their friends. I've had a lifetime of being wrong to protect me from feeling embarrassed. If you at least think before you talk, the professors recognize that you're intelligent and there to learn and treat you accordingly. Talk to each professor at least once after class and demonstrate that you have social skills. This isn't about schmoozing, this is about learning; professors have tons of knowledge they don't put into the lesson plan.

I'm loving this. If I don't spend a day on the job as a professional forester, it's still worth it. It's a great exercise for my brain and redemption for the grades I got the first time through.

Tillaway -- I like what I hear.  8)

Riles said:

QuoteI'm loving this. If I don't spend a day on the job as a professional forester, it's still worth it. It's a great exercise for my brain and redemption for the grades I got the first time through.

I hear ya.  My early battles w/ traditional universities were ugly.  I look forward to completing a university w/ a Bachelor's....and like you, if I don't end up working in forestry, big deal.  LIke someone said before in this thread:  I can still use the degree for other things....atleast more open doors.
:P

One of my best friends in school would have been around 34 when he went back he graduated at around 37 or 38 and is going to grad school next year and looking at getting his doctorate. Oh he would have been out one year before he goes to get his masters so he is about 38-9 going back. He is also married with three children.  Also another friend was about 34 when finished and i went with several others that were around 27-30 when they finished.

Chips, I would have loved to have gone back to Clemson for this forestry degree, but the commute from Louisiana is just too much!

BS EE '83

Hey, everybody!  I haven't been around in a while.  Just got the net hooked back up at my apartment last week....AND I FIND MYSELF STILL SITTING ONTHE FENCE...EVEN WORSE.  I actually spoke w/ an admissions person at a private liberal arts university here in Nashville today about my future at the school studying English, Creative Writing=another love of mine.  Still finishing up the graphic design associate degree...will be done in December....but I find myself approaching a difficult, difficult decision:


1. University of TN Knoxville Forestry School -- A career in Forestry sounds adventurous, and out of the ordinary.  I absolutely LOVE the outdoors, and studying trees makes me feel closer to God.

or

2. Belmont University in Nashville -- Writing is another great love of mine...and literature, too.  Coupled w/ my Graphic Design degree, this Bachelor's in English from this PRIVATE expensive college ($20,000 a year, including room oncampus) is MONEY in Nashville...it's a more prestigious degree in Nashville...and most likely anywhere else.  But more alluring than the prestige and higher income that would result from going to this school, is what an enriching experience it would be for me as a person, and artist.  The classes are as a rule small...and everyone there is there b/c they WANT to be...unlike a State school.  It is in a beautiful part of town, and I get thrilled when I think that I could possibly immerse myself in that kind of environment.   But the only con:  it's not Forestry.
On top of that I'd hate to leave Nashville for Knoxville.....I'm a member of a 12-step program, and my homegroup and great friends are here.  My heart lives in Nashville.  But the lure of Forestry calls, despite all of this.

WHAT DO I CHOOSE!!!?!??!!!  I've been seriously thinking about Forestry for a year now.  For a while it was Forestry vs. Bachelor's in Graphic Design.....now I know I want a Bachelor's in something other than Graphic Design.....NOW it's Forestry vs. English.....
I don't know what kind of feedback I'm looking for..... Perhaps these details will spark a message one of you are destined to give me....

smiley_huh2 smiley_dizzy smiley_cry


Nonetheless, I hope everyone has a great Memorial Day weekend. :)

Tough decisions. What options do you have available to pay for more schooling?
Affording a second degree was one of the motivating factors in my decision-making, as well as one in the decisions my four youngsters had to make.  Do you want the debt for a longer period of time, is something to ask yourself.
Good luck in deciding.

When I bought my tractor, the salesman assured me that a small one will do what the big one will do if I have the time to allocate to it.  Time is something that I had dismissed from the equation.

Education is about the same.  If you don't disregard time, there is a lot available to you.  The successful never stop learning.  They may or may not do it in a formal setting, but, they are always open to an education in their field.

Money is another hang-up.  Borrowing money to go to school has gotten a lot of young people into a lot of trouble.  School is fun until you need to pay the piper.  Organized Institutions can separate you from more dollars than you ever would imagine existed.

Twelve step programs are great.  They bring friends into a life where positive relationships never existed.  They can also become a crutch.  It's tough to join the service because you leave your high-school friends at home.  It's tough to get married because you begin to live by different rules and have different goals and single friends won't always come along for the ride.  Any change  in your life will threaten previous social arrangements.  That's just how life is.   If being part of a 12 step program is your life, then widen your boundaries and become a part of other clubs.  You don't have to give up friends just to make new ones. 

Choosing a career path is a difficult thing for everyone.  Few work in their chosen paths.  You can, though, get so wrapped up in designing and managing your life that you forget to live it.  It happens all of the time. People have good intentions and never get off of the starting line, never get married, never have children, never buy a car, never buy a house, never go on a vacation, .....

You have to start somewhere.  You just have to keep your mind open to other things.  You can't always wait to get all of your ducks lined up before you cross the street.  Sometimes you just have to do something and recoup if it doesn't work out.  It's the goal that is important, not always the path.  There are often many paths to a goal.

If you aren't afraid of time, then many decisions become linear rather than a fork in the road.  What do you want to do first?  Can one goal pay for the other?

Perhaps you should shoot for something that covers both.  There probably is a pretty good market for people that can write about the outdoors, forestry or something along that line.  Seems to me that we have a member that does writing. 

One guy that graduated with me had a major in forest science and a minor in journalism.  He was snatched up pretty DanG quick.

Tom
That post would make a great Commencement speach at any graduation, be it High School or a College, or even the end of a prison term or when contemplating a job change.
Well said and short but to the point.  (now did you buy the small tractor or the big one  :) )  Inquiring minds gotta .......... ::)

Very well said Tom.

Brandon, it seems to me that you have a good head on your shoulders, Tom has presented to you advice that you should ponder upon, you said that you would like to travel, well, there are many forestry positions worldwide, Africa/Sth America/Asia, but first you have to make up your mind if you want to persue forestry as a career, having decided then DO IT!, my advice would be to attempt to learn another language, Spanish and Manderin, the latter has sent me to China on many interesting assignments.

Best for your future
Richard

Lots of good advice here.  BRANDON, the most important thing is to GET STARTED..., DO SOMETHING.  Remember that hardly anybody finds the "ideal" job, the "ideal" spouse, etc.  There's always tradeoffs.  The most succesful people are the ones who learn to accept these tradeoffs and live with them.  The grass will always look greener on the other side of the fence.  Always.

Remember there are others who have gone down the same path as you and have spent the years necessary to earn whatever degree they have.  Seek out the ones that are happy, that have made a living from it, and copy from them.  You might be older than most college students..., so what.  That doesn't mean your life is over.  You've got experience and maturity on your side that they don't have.

You will always learn something positive from every situation.  If you get a Forestry degree, but then decide to do something else, you have still learned some positive beneficial things while earning that forestry degree that will help you in your chosen job and in life. 

Jump in there, boy, and embrace it!

Brandon
A dual degree is a good idea, particularly writing and forestry.  I have a problem expressing myself and foresters tend to be introverts so getting a good message out to the public is difficult.  Being skilled with both would be of great value.

Another thing to consider is where you get your degree.  I could be way off here but degrees from western schools might travel better than eastern.  The point I make is that when foresters are hired out west basic knowledge of road construction and cable logging systems is required.  These are specialties usually taught out here.  We have applicants from eastern schools that rarely score high enough to get an interview.  However an old co-worker of mine had no trouble traveling east to work in Ohio.  I may have mentioned that one of our new foresters was hired out of Wisconsin Steven Point because one of his old professors used to teach at Oregon State, I think, and insisted on teaching a basic course in cable logging systems.  It got him an interview and a job.

Tom, what you've said about time has prompted me to think about how much I worry over it, instead of just doing what's in front of me...Perhaps I should focus more on my goals instead of my paths.
I've been thinking alot about what crtreedude said a while back earlier on in this thread about finding a good paying job so I BUY some forest land to take care of/play around with.  I consider THAT one of my goals, and I won't have to be a professional forester to realize that goal... nor have an extremely high paying job, for that matter, if I manage my money well. 

I went on a backpacking trip into the Appalachain Mtns. this past April, and as we were leaving, driving down the unpaved mountain road, and as I was staring out the passenger window, gazing at the forest thinking career options, my imagination cried out: "Yes!  You will go to forestry school!  Forget your doubts!! Just GO!"  And in that moment my mind was made up. 
But I get back to the city, and back to my peers at my design school, and back around all the pretty girls in the city, and the arts & literature of the city, and my mind starts thinking about writing again, and high a high paying city job, and the new '05 Mustangs, and that part of me that felt such inner resolve about working closely with nature and the forest, is overrun by the lure of city culture (ie, my Belmont University option).  There must be a balance.

Tom, you mentioned social change...INDEED!  And also I see this as a lifestyle decision I'm about to make...(which I suppose a career is synonymous w/ a lifestyle...)...I'm torn between the city and the Woods.  Two extremes?

What about Urban Forestry?  how available are jobs like that?

Ron and Tillaway, you guys both encourage the writing idea....and I'm all for that!!!!  Though two Bachelor degrees is more time and $.
Who knows, maybe I'll get this Belmont English writing degree by the time I'm 29, then move on to a forestry school and be done w/ it by 32...and be about $100,000 in the hole with student loans.....  smiley_dizzy
Dundee mentioned learning a second language....I would definitely have to learn a second language at Belmont w/ an English Bachelor's, so that's more justification for my English madness!!!

Ok...bedtime.

Thank you all for helping with these responses.  I have reverence for what this forum is and you people, b/c you are all real people, living active lives, doing the work you love doing.  I aspire to be like you.  Some of you old timers have made a great impression on me about what a forester is.  I'm attracted to forestry more so after seeing this board, because I would LOVE to have co-workers of your character.  I sense great humanity in the foresters on this board.  ;D

Quote from: Tillaway on May 30, 2006, 09:42:30 PM
Another thing to consider is where you get your degree.  I could be way off here but degrees from western schools might travel better than eastern.  The point I make is that when foresters are hired out west basic knowledge of road construction and cable logging systems is required.  These are specialties usually taught out here.  We have applicants from eastern schools that rarely score high enough to get an interview.

Again as Tillaway suggested it depends on the school. I wouldn't neccessarily say east versus west, but some schools have an Engineering Forestry degree or Forest Engineering as it's called here. As far as I've seen, there has been no difficulty getting such jobs in BC. Alot of FE graduates from UNB tend to gravitate to the west, and demand higher wages than regular Forestry graduates. This is why some companies out there tend to hire BC Forest Techs and lable them engineers, because they can pay them less and they have a decent corriculum geared toward coastal logging. I'm not so sure that the Forestry corriculum at UBC is that much different than back east. We can also take elective courses in logging systems and roads here if that is what you want to persue. Some of those courses have prerequisits in order to get into them.

Brandon,

One pitfall I think that many people fall into is seeking for a job or situation that pleases them, instead of learning to like what they do. One is easy, but very short term usually (almost any job is WORK sometimes) the other is harder (requires self discipline and a strong mind) but has great carrying power.

I have worked in more than my share of jobs that most people around me complained about - I could always find a way to enjoy it.

I have software developer, owner and president of a plantation, directory of IS. Started an Auto Parts store when I was 19... I have yet to get sucked into a college for anything. There are only a few forestry engineers down here that know more than I do currently in tropical forestry. I suspect I studied harder than they did - but from books. I didn't have 5 years to spend in school. I still use forestry engineers - but not for my core research.

For you see, once upon a time, in a distant place (Missouri) when I was knee-high to a grasshopper, someone taught me to read... and I have never looked back.

If you learn the basic skill - how to understand and comprend what you read, you really don't have to pay huge amount of money for someone to read to you.

Most of the people on this forum learned about cutting wood from reading, and trying what they read (I assume pretty pictures too  ::) ) Don't under estimate your power to learn.

Education can be a good thing - especially in fields that have certification. But, it is only a stepping stone - it isn't the end of the journey. And sometimes, if you have enough drive, you can by pass it.

I guess I am a forestry engineer because I own the forest...  ;) (Believe me, it makes you pretty serious when you are studying when it is your investment on the line!)

A Forest Engineering degree say, out of OSU, primarily handle roads and harvest unit layout.  They pretty much stick to those... if you ask one a forestry question say something about cruising, or silviculture they will look at you kind of funny.  You just tell them you need to get from point A to point B and they will be happy calculating cuts and fills, slope staking, running grade lines and annoying road building contractors.

Foresters are more a generalist, you have to know enough about many different things to be able to know when your over your head and need to consult a specialist. 

Again, it relates to the school's corriculum. The first 2 or 3 years the Engineers take overlapping courses with the foresters at UNB including Botany, Mensuration, Meteorology, photo interp, remote sensing, Geology, Wood Tech, Wood Products, Stand Dynamics, Soil Science, Silviculture, Linear Programming, Dendro and others plus the prerequisit engeneering courses. They can also take elective forestry courses in later years. The courses dealing with Tree Development and Structure, Tree Physiology, animal biology, fire management, ecology and so on are not part of their corriculum as I recall. The engineers I went to school with definately know cruising and silviculture systems though. ;)

Quote(Believe me, it makes you pretty serious when you are studying when it is your investment on the line!)

I like the sound of that!  ;D  I like the way you see things, crtreedude.  Thank you.  I think the English writing route here in Nashville coupled w/ my graphic design interests, will be more fitting for me professionally...But one of my goals is to own my own forestland.....I like the idea of teaching myself forestry w/ the reality of my own money on the line being my motivation to study hard.  ;)  I guess I can be an "amateur" forester on my own property and still enjoy the work w/o having to do it full time and w/o a degree.

My mind is closer to being made up. 
And with books andthis messageboard I should be set to enjoy forestry for years to come!

When you research yourself - you go into the most interesting directions. For example, my wife Amy has problems eating fruit that is acidic. (teeth are sensitive) and many of the tropical fruits are like this. However, there is one she really likes, Sapote, which is too sweet for me. Very nutritious too. And almost gone, nearly extinct.

Yesterday we were talking to someone (a builder) and he told us that the wood from it is really excellent - it grows big, tall and has a beautiful deep red wood...

No one is growing it in plantations because of course there are other trees that are better known, but... I can see sprinkling Sapotes all over the place - food for people, food for wildlife, and a great wood that is very rare.

This is not something that will be taught in school normally. The hybridization of ideas from different areas are where good ideas (and profitable businesses) come from.

There is some pretty interesting things going on regarding owning your own forest and managing it for sustainable, future yields. Assembly line processing like is currently done in the very large plantations isn't the only way - value added is also very good.

The reasoning is sort of like this: Used to be, a person would take a tree, fall it, cut it into boards and build a home, etc. Then, with the industrial revolution, it got to be more cost effective to have someone else do the dropping of the tree and turning it into boards.

However, the industrial revolution never really stopped, so now you are seeing smaller sawmills and equipment that allows you to do the same, and of course, reaping all the markup. Your writing skills can help you in this. If you want to get some interesting ideas - check out the book "Money for Content and your Clicks for Free" regarding turning your writing into income.

The business of Finca Leola came about because I enjoy writing and took my research and dumped it into a website (it helps that I am married to an editor!). Because of that, people find our website all the time - and get interested in investing in tropical hardwood.  We of course had to make sure to do a good job - but that is where my research and Hector's knowledge comes into play.

So, I'm back on the fence again.  The idea of majoring in forestry and minoring in writing or journalism sounds more appealing, like Ron mentioned.  This coming up December will mark the graduation from my graphic design school...i'll have an associate's degree.  Come January, I'm going to enroll in a Biology night class at the local community college.  I'll need this course as a core credit for either the English route, or the Forestry.....
But by then I'm gonna have to make a decision, so that I can then start applying to whichever of the schools...and setting up financial aid, housing, meal plans, etc...

I feel there has been some progress, though.  I defintely want to work w/ doing writing work.  Though would I technically be a 'forester' if I'm hired for my writing skills? 
And if I were to minor in journalism or writing, that would mean I'll be taking less forestry science-related courses, especially the specialized ones...how will this affect me being hired as a forester, and my competence as a knowledgable young forester?

I appreciate all of the advice, guys.....Phorester, thanks for the words.  I like what you said about if I decide to do different, I'll still have learned skills to apply in my chosen field.

Here's another idea for you.  Maybe you should get in contact with one of the trade organizations in the industry.  One that you might want to try is the Northeastern Loggers Assn.  They publish the Norther Logger magazine. 

I believe the editor was not associated with the industry before working for the magazine.  He might be able to give you some insight into writing for the industry.  They also offer some scholarships, which you may be interested in. 

Here's the website:  http://www.northernlogger.com/index.asp

You've been mulling this over for at least 6 months on this Board, probably longer in your life.

There are no wrong answers here.  Life is a learning process. You've got good ideas. You will not make a "wrong" decision.

You've got a good plan with Forestry and Jounalism.  Don't sweat the details.  Get off the fence and do it!!   ;D   Let us know what you decide.

My sentiments exactly.  ;)

You can't steer a parked car... You have to be moving to change directions...

Sometimes people in my generation took off a little time between HS and college commitments to "try" working and to see what they like . . .

Maybe spend a winter/semester break ( or even a couple months ? ) doing/working with a firm to get hands on exposure .

BTW - I do believe in the old cliche that if it doesn't kill ya it makes ya stronger ( whether physically or mentally or both ) - also another cliche is that a boat is safe in the harbor but thats not what boats are built for.

Good Luck . . .

Well, yes, I have been mulling over this for a while...but this whole time I've been(and still am until December) graphic design school, hence my 'waiting'.  But, you guys have a good points.  I'll do some volunteer work to test the waters.  Much thanks!

I have been a full time forester for over 11 years now, it is the best job in the entire world! I am a little bias I guess. But seriously, It is funny how similair our stories are, when I was still in high school, I was taking college level graphic design courses, and all ready for that to be my career. I grew up in the forestry industy, and one day realized that I was meant to walk in the woods every day for the rest of my life and get paid to do it. I have never once regreted that decision.

I highly recommend Paul Smiths College, it was a great start, but I have really learned all i know working in the field.

good luck!

Welcome aboard jeepforester. Tell us what ya know, help out, and stick around awhile.  ;)  :)

Lo and behold:  I talked to a professional forester(Tennessee Division of Forestry here in Nashville)on the phone today.  And I told him I was interested in talking with him, and taking a tour and meeting with his colleagues.  He sounded enthused when I told him I was considering forestry school...said "we need good people becoming foresters."--I took it as a compliment. ;D

Gonna visit them next Wednesday.

Great! Spend some time with them and pick their brains if you can to see if you want to "walk in their shoes" . ;)

Actually visited them today, instead of next Wednesday. 

They were state foresters, and I probably met 20 of them....the accounting dude toured me around the offices and introduced me to all of them.  Most of them said if I was looking to get rich, forestry probably wasn't the way.  They were all very kind people, though.  All seemed like good men, and all had a light in their eyes that said "I love what I'm doing."  All were enthusiastic about their jobs/work/career.

And most generally said there wasn't much money to be made as forester. 
I was also shown the GIS program by a younger forester who graduated school in 2001...that was pretty neat.

I love Nashville and don't want to leave.  And I recently started dating a wondeful lady I'm crazy about.  I guess I must wait a bit longer and see how things unfold...I'm praying for the strength to follow my heart and soul.

Brandon,

The goal is not necessarily to gather all the money around you, it's to gather what you need to make you happy.

I'm sure there are Foresters in 6 figures that are secure in their lives and investing in their retirement.  You can't go through life wanting what others have.  You can sure be happy being able to afford what you want.  Don't look over the fence to make the comparison of whether you are a success or not.  Look into  the mirror.

Gaining education like you are doing may have you with more than one profession.  :)

Thanks, Tom.  More wholesome food for thought.

Tom expressed it better than I was about to attempt.  I'll just re-inforce that most Foresters are.......,  because of a love of what we do.  We do make enough to be comfortable in our lives (mostly), as long as you don't want to outdo your neighbors.  But being in a career that you enjoy is worth as much, if not more, than a high salary in a career you don't enjoy.

I agree...  if you can't have fun at work you might as well stay the hell home.  I love forestry because I grew up in it and it is a challenge.  Money may not be as good compared to an executive etc, however its not that bad.

Forestry is a lifestyle and as I have discovered on this forum, the world of forestry is very small  and everyone is very passionate about what they are doing.  I would recommend forestry to anyone...

Yeah, I see  your point Phor. how a career one enjoys compensates for alooooot of $. (yet, money is always a persuader for me.)

QuoteForestry is a lifestyle.

Indeed, Samuel.  That is much of the reason why I think it is an important decision for me to make...I"m just waiting now to see how things unfold..how they unfold within the next couple of months will determine my decision; Found out last week Belmont University, the private liberal arts school, won't accept me because of some bad grades in the past....so that just makes the forestry school more of a chance.  Still have to hear from 2 more writing schools though.  I have a feeling this other private one won't accept me either....so it'll probably come down to choosing between Middle TN STate Uni-english/journalism.  or UT-Knoxville-forestry.

If I do go to the forestry school, I've decided to minor in journalism for sure.  I figure my love for writing should be utilized in what ever I do.

Brandon,
Stick with the writing.  Those schools that depend totally on past grades of mature students are missing an opportunity.  It's those that keep coming back, even after failure, that are intent on making something out of themselves.  It looks like they would take the opportunity to make sure they were a part of the life of someone who has a goal rather than someone who who just happened to answer the test questions correctly one time.

Forestry and many other industries are hurting for writers who understand the subject.  Technical writers are not a dime a dozen anyway, and those that understand what they are writing are even more rare.

If you can put together a paper explaining your failures and make it interesting enough to hold someones attention, you can make a dollar on your own, without the need to punch some else's clock.

Don't worry about the popularity of the school.  Pick one that will teach you what you want to know.  That is the proof of the pudding when you get on the outside.  Having the sheepskin is a door opener, but the knowledge is indispensable.

Pick your goal and march straight ahead.  Keep your Bow into the seas and challenge every opportunity.  You will know when you know the material, regardless of someone else's ability or inability to measure.  Don't try to go through life with a following sea, you lose steerage.

One of these days, when you are the teacher, you will be the one who adds to the validity of your school rather than expecting the school to add significance to your life.

Charge!

Quote from: Tom on February 14, 2007, 03:29:00 PM
Brandon,

Forestry and many other industries are hurting for writers who understand the subject.  Technical writers are not a dime a dozen anyway, and those that understand what they are writing are even more rare.

The only magazine I subscribe to, Atlantic Forestry, are always looking for freelance writers in the forest industry. If they would send a guy a cheque for their efforts I'd write them a few articles myself. Call me selfish, but they want $$ for me to advertise there, so whose more selfish? ;)

Thanks for the inspiring words, Tom.  I haven't given up yet, and don't plan too.  ;)

QuoteForestry and many other industries are hurting for writers who understand the subject.  Technical writers are not a dime a dozen anyway, and those that understand what they are writing are even more rare.

For sure I want to be of competent service; and to be of competent service where it is badly needed is even better.

Aye, aye Cap'n!!!  sail_smiley

When you look around and can't decide look up ! ::)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12754/Skyview.jpg)

 ;D

Ok....I know at this point you all believe I'm constitutionally incapable of making up my mind  ;D, but I have news:


I am going to forestry school next fall at the University of TN, if I'm accepted. My min d has never been this made up on the issue.  If I'm not accepted, it will be due to a low GPA from past years; in that case I'll attend school in Nashville to bring it up, but I'm pretty sure I'll get accepted.

I can't deny it. It's what I want to do.  My heart is in it.  I simply prefer the idea of having an opportunity to contribute to the health of forests, directly with my daily work. Oh yeah, and I love being outside.  ;)

Good Show, Brandon!

Work and study hard when you get in.  I want to see you succeed. :)

Thanks again, Tom.  You've been instrumental in the massively, sometimes overly complicated operation that is the making up of my mind.  ;D

Cheers to the Forestry Forum in general!!!

You won't be sorry.

Great! Put your mind to it and you will do fine. I had to take several non-credit classes at night and on week-ends that were required for college entrance with better grades also.

If I hadn't been a Korean war veteran, I wouldn't have been accepted at all. ;)

Good luck Brandon.  Study hard!

Phorester, Ron S., WDH.....thank you, sirs! I'll be continuing to learn from you guys via this board for a long time, hopefully.

And we'll be learning from you too.  A person has to keep learning.  Your education doesn't end with the "book learning".  Carry on the torch.  We need that because the world is an ever complicated place.  Forestry will be even more important function as we utilize our natural resources to improve the lives of people why at the same time as we conserve our right to do so.

A bit discouraged...(just a little.  )  My co-worker's boyfriend's father is a forester in Alabama, and last week I told her I am going to forestry school this Fall.  Apparently, she asked her boyfriend about forestry in the meantime and reported to me smugly  that "Forester's make even less money than graphic designers.  My boyfriend said there are more people than jobs."

Help.

So what.  When I graduated there were no jobs.  You needed a Masters and military credit just to get a Technicians job. My class had 69 graduates, and only 5 had jobs at graduation.

What became of the rest?  A couple are professors, a couple became consultants, one of them owned a sawmill, a few became loggers.  Some never set foot into the woods or worked with wood after graduation.  But, few would not have taken the journey. 

All college can do is give you an education.  They can teach you stuff, but they can't live your life.  You have to make it what you want.  If you want to do forestry work, then do it. 

As for the money, yes, some of the guys don't make much.  But, that's a choice.  I know guys who did real well, and some who didn't .  Its all what you make it.

Remember what Tom said.  Life is short.  Do what you want to do.  You can't take the money with you when you expire.  Foresters do OK.  IIt has been great for me.  My oldest daughter is in graduate school (Forestry) and I can't express how proud I am of her. 

My graduating class was similar to Ron Wenrich's--about 63 graduated and only 3 had jobs right out of school, but a few months later, everyone I heard about had a job--but I didn't hear about everyone.  That was in '75.  I was ex-military and had a BA in Political Science and a BS & MS in Forestry and was the only one to get 2 job offers, one with the USDA Forest Service, which I took.

Move on a few years and affirmative action kicked in.  If you were not a female or minority, kiss off working for the feds.  One couple I worked with, she was an average student, he was an A student; she was hired right out of school, he had to work as a technician for a few years before he got on as a professional forester.  A woman who worked for me barely graduated from forestry school, had several D's and was hired right out of college (I didn't do the hiring, she was reassigned to me when she couldn't cut it in another department).  I could go on.  The point is, don't count on a job with the feds.  Even if you are an affirmative action candidate, they aren't hiring many people theses days in the northwest--they are still cutting back.

Private industry hiring ebbs and flows with the economy.  If you get laid off, it will be when no one else is hiring.

On the positive side, I loved my forestry work.  Before I became a district silviculturist, I was in charge of reforestation and we planted about 2200 acres a year.  You drive thru the district and see all those trees growing and know they are there because of what you did, it gives you a great feeling. District silviculturist was also a great job.  I never found a higher level job I wanted because everyone above me was tied to a desk.

So, given those dreary facts about finding and keeping a job, work out some strategy to deal with the uncertainties and realities.  Here are just a few ideas. 

Be an A student.  Be sure to get summer work that is in forestry, and better yet, get a different kind of job each summer.  There's no substitute for experience.  And, some of our summer workers eventually got on permanent, full time with the agency.  Being known as smart, hard workers made the difference.

Teaching forestry at the college level is probably more secure, if you can get hired.  While working on your degree, talk to your profs about what it takes to get hired to teach, if you are interested in that.

State agencies may not be so tied to affirmative action? 

Given concerns about global warming and the growing interests in carbon credits, there may be some opportunities coming along there n a few years. 

Have a fallback skill you could market at any time, unrelated to the housing market so you won't starve if you get laid off.  If you have a family, you gotta have money.

Talk to industry people who do the hiring about which schools are best.  When I was in forestry school, a fad had spread thru the college community for backing off the hard core subjects.  Consequently you could graduate from UC Berkeley without a course in dendrology (tree species identification).  Can you imagine a forester who can't tell the difference between a Douglas-fir and a noble fir?  At that time, only a few western schools still had rigorous programs--Humboldt in California and OSU in Oregon being notable exceptions to the fad.  The big name eastern schools such as Harvard, had gone with the fad.

If you want to work for industry, I suspect most of the jobs go to forest engineering majors, but that is just my guess.  Probably more true in the west.

Be mobile, especially if you work for industry.  You gotta be willing to go where the jobs are.

While you are in forestry school, make friends with those in classes ahead of you and keep in contact with them after they graduate.  They can let you know about how they got hired, who is hiring, what it took to get hired, etc.  If there is a forestry club, participate in that for the same reason.

Those are just some ideas from one who has been there, at least with one agency.  Other people's experiences are probably different and as times change opportunities and challenges change, so some of the foregoing may no longer be true.

Getting that first job will be your greatest challenge.  But as a friend told me once when I told him about my concerns before going to forestry school, "There are always opportunities for good people."  So be a good people & you'll probably do OK.

Richard Scott
Retired silviculturist

Welcome to the board, Pilot!  Thanks for the info, too.  I'll try to be a good people.
Ron, you nailed it: the journey is what it's all about.
WDH, thanks again.

As of right now, I'm admitted to the school; just registered for orientation for May 18th.  Over the weekend, I took out the school catalog and assembled my class schedule as well as I could.  I'm psyched!!!!!!  8) ;D :P

I have a buddy who is a restoration ecologist (restores native species) who owns a nursery and lives near Nashville.  I'm gonna work part-time with him this Spring on the weekends when I can.  Maybe I'll gain some kind of experience there.

Well, I just got back from orientation at UT today.  Registered for classes, picked out an apartment, and visited the agriculture campus.

I'm on my way!!!  8) :P :P :P :P :P :P  :-X

;)

 8) 8) 8)

I had the opportunity to attend Total Quality and Designed Experiment classes there a while back, and it was a blast.  I really liked the campus.  I guess we are now rivals ::). 

Tuition and fees: $12,184
Gas for commuting 27,000 miles in the car and 13,000 on the Harley: $3300
Nanny to watch the kids while Dad plays college student again: $22,000

Forester's logo under your name on the The Forestry Forum: Priceless!

It was a group effort, thanks guys.

BSF, La Tech, 2007

Riles, Ha ha ha ha haha!!! :D :D  Congrats, man!


WDH....rivals help each other try harder, so it is good.  ;D

Congrats Riles 8).

Thank god for grant and scholarship when I went and I dont even get a cool logo  :D :D

Congrats Riles.

Yup, that's my third degree and Uncle Sam paid for most of all three.

This fits right in to this thread. You're never too late to consider a career in forestry.

Of course, I'm 45 and looking for an entry level forestry job now...

How goes the job hunt, Riles?   btw, what area of forestry did you 'specialize' in within(or outside) your major, Riles?  As for now, my plan is to fill my elective credits with journalism classes....but I also yet haven't discussed this at length w/ any forestry professors.   

A journalistic environmentalistic Forester?

There are quite a few foresters that write for 'Atlantic Forestry' magazine. There must be some like magazines in the US where a forester could contribute. And writing is something that is a must. I've read some reports from some new graduates and they could use some good writing classes. Although, as I recall you are writing at least a couple of reports a week for assignments. It's not just writing for the sake of writing, but it's your analytical skills and being able to get that info down on paper that is critical. You could be the best writer out there but get poor grades on your assignments and the guy that recognizes what's going on in his lab exorcise and puts it to paper will triump. That's the difference between drivel and actually 'getting it'.  ;)

No job yet. Still getting settled into the new digs here in NC. (Got my flag updated, still need to move my tree on the big map). Waiting on a call from the state about my application for a service forester-in-training position, they have an opening at the district office a couple miles down the road.

Already picked up the tractor, got the forks based on advice from the forum. Been bush-hogging and moving downed cedars into a pile pending the delivery of the skillmill. Got the rails last week, but UPS lost the sawhead. (Seems someone else got a sawhead but UPS lost the rails. Hmmm.) Captain and crew have another one on the way, so I may be cutting this weekend.

Got a good look at the trees on the farm, and I'm ready to take up mass murder of deer. They really put a hurtin' on the oak seedlings.

Dang, I'm working too hard to get a job!

Yeah, SD I imagine the challenging part will be the understanding what I'm writing about as a whole, rather than the actual activity of writing. 

As of right now, I'd like to work for the Forest Service.  I just watched The Greatest Good dvd, and am inspired.  But I suppose any forestry work will be good.  I want to work in a position where I can learn more and more, on the job,  firsthand about timber management...learning is my goal.

If you haven't already done it Brandon, join your State Forestry Association if you have one.  Suscribe to forestry and wildlife related magazines such as are put out by some State Associations, Forestry or Game Depts, private forest industries.  Go to landowner forestry courses, tours, etc.  Get just more than a structured educational education.  If you can, go out a day or so with game biologists, USFS foresters, State Foresters, consulting foresters, procurement foresters, loggers, foresters who manage industry forestland, forest nurserymen, arborists, etc., etc. Get a broad exposure to forestry.  Find out the compromises that have to be made between the interests of each, the biological, monetary, technological, etc.  limits as to what can actually be done in the woods.

As with all professions, my college education only gave me the basic understanding and underpinnings of actually learning about forestry and the environment.  My eyes were really opened in the first few months on the job right out of college. There has to be the knowledge and experience on how to transfer the "book learning" to real in-the-woods accomplishments. 

People skills are needed just as much as forest managment skills.  You have to be able to communicate forestry knowledge to people. Some will have a sincere love of the forest and all it's amenities. Others only want to exploit it.  Usually, neither know anything about biology, forest or wildlife management, etc.  You have to be able to figure out what people want and be able to persuade them to do what your knowledge and expertise say is the best thing to do in their woods to get what they want from the forest that they control.

It's frustrating and rewarding at the same time.

Good suggestions from Phorester. I'd add the SAF (Soc of American Foresters) to the list, and hope they have local chapter or State section to join at student rates. Or just find out when they have meetings and try to attend. That way you will find older foresters hanging out together and some very anxious to meet some young, interested forester.
Possibly there is already contact through your department in this area.

Phorester, I like the idea of "shadowing" all those different kinds of foresters you mentioned.  Getting exposed in broad fashion sounds good to me.

Let me know when you want to go to the field.  Maybe we can arrange something.

Will do, WDH!!  Let me check my calendar.  8)

Brandon,

It is true that there are more foresters than jobs.  With this being said you need to work harder than others not only in school, but summer work.  The guys in school when i went back to grad school would not even interview to fill all availible internships w/ Rayoneir when they came.  When i was looking for an internship i had to compete for the two or three slots and did not get one (got another, better in my opinion job as an intern on a 49,000 acre quail plantion working with the forester)  The most recent guys seemed lazy and un motivated, undoubtably these are those percentage that never "find" forestry jobs or just don't go to work in the forestry profession.  Each time i looked for a job or internship there was always only 1 offer, and i took each one.  Moving is a key, luckily i have just hopped around my state but if needed i whould have moved.  Our state agency (forestry commission) receives lots of turnover in employees either from them moving on, up in their agency or from retirements.  The latter seems to be the most common, and then the guys shuffle around when a vacancy opens to try and get closer to back home.  The foresters who work for the state will never be rich or poor but will be comfortable in life.  A lot of guys were project foresters for the state out of school or after a year or two.  The fed system pays more but is also very had to get into. You will most likely have to start at a tecnition before you get a professional forester slot if you go that route and it may never happen due to the hiring hoops that they have to jump through.  I have been out of undergrad school for three years now, in that time i worked as a contracted intern forester for the army for 16 months, went back to school and got my masters (MFR) and have been employed as a training professional forester for 8 months now w/ The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Savannah district.  I do contract administration for the timber sales on the lake here (~70,000 acres) and two military bases that total over 110,000 acres and i manage a small air base for the USAF.  Money is tough right now but all the bills are paid with a little money left over but not much.  Going to school put me back about 1-2 years as far as progression had i started this job 1.5 yrs ago, but then agin had i not got my masters i might not have gotten this job. 

Most foresters may be tight for 1-3 years around here, weather they move off then back in this time or stay around and do what they can untill that job with the state or a  consultant or company pays off.  But this seems to be the time frame for the ones that did not get a professional forester job right out of school or ones that took professional forester jobs w/other states to get back home.  Like i said SC does not pays its state foresters to get rich but they all seem to like their jobs and i don't know of any that have left thier jobs that have them that i went to school with, all seem happy with their jobs.

As far as the feds go, i feel extremly blessed in my career and being hired into the federal system as a professional forester so young.  I beleive that it is due to my dedication to the field and my hard work in (graduated 2nd in class w/honors) and out of school.  I think but and not sure that i got the 1 federal forester job that was hired externally in our state last year.  I from time to time looked and while in school would get emails notifying us of a job but never saw any others, so for that i feel good.  I also only know 2 others that i had gone to school with who work for some branch of the federal system, neither of them graduated in my class (~25-35 people), but after me.  I applied for state a forester job but none would wait untill my graduation for me so they had to pass even though i feel confident that they would have hired me had i been availible at the time!

Congradulations Riles on your acheivement also!!  Job well done.

Hello my name is Ben and im from Quebec Canada. Ive planted nearly 1 million trees in various places across British Colombia and Alberta.  Also done various bush work like fire fighting, spraying, cone picking etc..I am very interested in Taking the forest technician course at Algonquin college in Ottawa Ontario. I dont know anything about this course and what it involves, Its quite the investment and not sure if work will be available in the future. Is this a good career choice?