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Identify wood from the end grain of a board/log

Started by SwampDonkey, October 30, 2006, 12:34:52 PM

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metalspinner

From the pic, can you tell me how you came to that conclusion?  I have a hard time seeing anything but the growthrings and the color variation. ???
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

WDH

There is no differention within the growth ring between the early wood and the late wood.  There is very little differentiation between the growth rings as well.  Everything is kind of uniform and bland.  No distinctive features.  Homogenous.  Poplar would have a band of marginal parenchyma that distinctly separates the growth rings (as would all the magnolias species).  I don't see it here.  All the pores are the same size, so that rules out all the ring porous hardwoods with distinct grain like oak, elm, hackberry, hickory, ash, locust, mulberry, walnut, sassafras, honeylocust, catalpa where there is a distinct difference between pore diameter between cells in the early wood and the late wood.  Some species have a gradual gradation in pore size across the growth ring like walnut, persimmon, willow, and cottonwood.  These are called semi-ring porus hardwoods or semi-diffuse hardwoods.  I don't see that in the photo.  Cherry has one row of large diameter cells in the early wood, then the remaining cells are all the same, and I do not see this row of large diameter cells in the pic.  Other diffuse porous hardwoods like maple and birch have very distinct growth ring boundaries (contributes to their visual grain in a board), and I don't see it in the pic to the extent that I would suspect if it were one of those two species.  Beech and sycamore are diffuse porous like sweetgum, but the rays in beech and sycamore are very large and unmistakeable, creating that wonderful ray fleck that we all love.  So, by the process of elimination, that does not leave much but sweetgum and blackgum (or tupelo gum if it is a swamp species). 

I clearly remember from my wood ID training (eons ago in the Cretaceous Period when dinosaurs ruled the earth) that if a sample was totally non-discript and had very homogenous features from a growth ring standpoint, and it if had a striking red heartwood or a shimmery patina, it was usually sweetgum.

Hope that helps.  Anyway, that is my reasoning........... ::)
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

metalspinner

Wow!  All of that from a blurry picture! That was a virtuosic answer.:D

So in this case identification has as much to do with what we can't see.  The sample I was trying to compare it to is in Hoadley's book Identifying Wood on page 135.  I think his sample is from under a microscope.

Thanks.  This is kind of fun, but I'm glad there is no test!

In the red oak species, can one tell the difference between Southern Red Oak and Northern Red Oak without microscopic enlargement?
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

WDH

It might have been a virtuosic answer, but it might be a wrong virtuosic answer!

No, you cannot readily distinguish southern red from northern red from a wood sample.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

metalspinner, when scanning I use a 4 inch wide sample BUT, what you want to do to keep clarity and resolution is....

First off, moisten the sample. When you go into your scanning wizard, do your preview. Then, use your mouse and resize the scanning margins to scan a 1" square section, maybe even 0.5". That is going to produce a fair size picture at the max scanning resolution you have. You want to be able to get a good sized picture with minimal resizing (shrinking) and compressing as possible. You may want to crop out a smaller section of that scanned section. I find 'Photoshop' 'ImageReady' or 'Elements' to have the best scaning features, but I'm not that well familiar with a lot of other scanning software.

Give that a try and see how ya make out. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

metalspinner

Mulberry?




I see what I believe are rays going from the top right corner of the pic down to the bottom left.  Does this rule out osage and locust?  Looking at the QS face for ray fleck, but what I am seeing is very small, so I'm not sure that is what I see. :-\
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

SwampDonkey

Split a piece, dampen, scan. ;D

Yes those are rays, but very crowded and fine. Looks like the cut face is covered in burs of fibres, probably the knife was dull. ;) Can't be mulberry, the rays would stand out more with the naked eye. Keeps coming up as sweetgum/redgum to me. The sapwood if present has a pinkish hue and most often is sap stained. I see sap stain in the first pic. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

metalspinner

SD, The second pic is from a different log.  I don't think my first posting of this latest sample went through like I wanted.  Sorry for the confusion.

The latest pic came from a log that is bright yellow.  I cannot tell the difference between mulberry and osage in lumber form.  Even the bark looks similar.  The leaves are long gone.

I'm still trying to get better resolution on the scanner. 
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Radar67

"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

WDH

Oak for sure.  Looks more like red oak because you can see into some of the open pores in the earlywood.  In almost all white oaks, chestnut oak excepted, the pores are totally filled with crystalline structures called tyloses.  I don't see that in the pic, so most probably a red oak.  Nice pic!
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

I'd say red oak also. For a minute I couldn't figure out what that vertical pattern was between the broader rays, but it's the late wood pores in line with finer rays. A little out of focus there. Late wood pores in white oak are indistinct with a hand lens.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Interesting enough, sugar maple, yellow birch, beech, white ash, black walnut, butternut and northern red oak all have around 21 % vessels (pores) by volume.  ;D

And hardwood also have tracheids: 1)vascular - which look the same as pores in the cross section and 2)vasicentric-have bordered pits. But, there structure is a bit different than softwoods.

We're getting microscopic here. ;D

I have some pretty good micrographs showing the different types in my copy of Textbook of wood Technology. A lot of this stuff is over my head to folks, if I can't see it by eye than it's hard to understand.  Also, not many of us are biochemists and physiologists. ;D  :D :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

Some of them encase a pretty good tasting nutmeat to.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Samuel

God I hated that part of Batony...figuring out tree species under a microscope.  I swore I would never use it and todate...  14 years later I still haven't.   8)
____________________________________
Samuel B. ELKINS, RPFT (AB)
Senior Consultant (Owner)
Strategic HSE Systems Inc.
Web: HugeDomains.com - StrategicHseSystems.com is for sale (Strategic Hse Systems)
LinkedIn http://ca.linkedin.com/in/samuelelkins
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SwampDonkey

Fortunately most of us with experience with the tree species we are dealing with don't need a hand lens to identify. But, I still meet the old fellow that should know his species. But still mix up basswood for some exotic tree that wouldn't even grow here and even saw one fellow mix up balm-of-gilead for red oak. I'm not going to bash you technicians over it, but call a spade a spade they were both technicians. ;D :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Jeff

Quoteeven saw one fellow mix up balm-of-gilead for red oak.

I've seen that exact mistake as well. By one of my cousins who is a  woodshop teacher.  :-\
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

beenthere

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

forest technician, 2 year diploma, used to be 1 year with 2 years experience.


Tom, I know you want to say something. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tom

They used to call that an Associates Degree and it wasn't worth beans but to get you into a 4 year school.  :)

SwampDonkey

I don't want to rant, and it has nothing to do with anything said in here. But, what turns my stomach inside out is to go down to the Forestry Canada, Maritime Regional building and walk into a theatre where over the door it reads Irving Theatre, just because some business man had $10,000, or what ever it was to throw around, an MBA, and whose parent company was subsidized by the government since the purchase of the NB rail road back in 1945. Instead of putting George Miller's name up there who was Chief forester with a B.Sc.For and M.Sc.For. in the province from 1927-1959, a veteran of WWI, a surveyor with a B.Sc.CE,  and began the program for fire management in NB, came from Tracey Mills in Carleton County NB, and a cousin to my grandmother. Just shows you that money over rides logic.  ::)


There is just some times a guy has to unload.  :-X :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tom

I agree, Swamp Donkey.  A family with money can get their name spread all over the county while worthwhile "doers" go unnoticed.   There is a saying that you are famous as long as you are remembered.  The good thing about that is that there are people like you who won't let the deserving go unnoticed or be forgotten.  Perhaps writing his name in a book telling his story is one of the ultimate tributes. 

Usually a building with a name will have people, years later, asking "who is that guy?"  Then they tear the building down. :)

Samuel

An associates degree hey?  :D  I am happy that my employers haven't heard that, or I would have to get a new job someplace.

With an associate degree maybe the new Wal-Mart would hire me as a greeter... :D

hmmm...  Anyhow food for thought...

The two associations in Alberta (RPF's and RPFT's) are considering a merger this year.  Given that the Alberta Regulated Forester's Act does not differentiate between certification hierarchies,  it would be a smart move.  In Alberta we are referred to as Registered Forest Professionals rather than the RPF or RPFT however I like to still consider myself a tech, however given that Tom has listed me as equal to a Wal-Mart greeter, I may have to reconsider.  lol
____________________________________
Samuel B. ELKINS, RPFT (AB)
Senior Consultant (Owner)
Strategic HSE Systems Inc.
Web: HugeDomains.com - StrategicHseSystems.com is for sale (Strategic Hse Systems)
LinkedIn http://ca.linkedin.com/in/samuelelkins
Software Solutions-
DATS | Digital Action Tracking System by ASM

SwampDonkey

They might as well do it here to Sam, since apparently a bachelor of science degree doesn't mean anything to many employers, most being private companies or corporations. I don't know if it ever did matter to most of them, certainly being an RPF in NB didn't increase your salary. The job was more based on wit and charm than it was knowledge and practice. ::) I read a job posting a couple months ago for a biologist employed by forestry Canada for a salary of $28,000.  Must have been a real bottom feeder. :-\ I think it was a 3 year term. I read on UNB's website that average starting salaries for graduating foresters was $46,000. WHERE? I've never seen those wages yet in 15 years. I don't even see those wages in BC or Alberta advertised on the Forestry job site. The only comparable pay is with unions. Not many foresters are unionized around here. As one consultant stated, there are more foresters than jobs. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Radar67

I have another unknown for you to ID. This is a dark grained wood I found at the local hardwood mill. They use it for stickers and this was in the broke, trash pile. Let me say this up front, I do not have a clue as to what this is, but for some reason, I want to say it resembles mahogany.

I scanned this chip in, it is ½ x ¾ inches.
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

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