iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Not sure what to tell the customer…….?

Started by POSTON WIDEHEAD, November 01, 2013, 08:35:07 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Customer brought in this Willow Oak wanting it Quarter Sawn.
I told him I would let him know tomorrow after I got a little advice from Y'all.

The Pith is off center and the log has a lot more sapwood than I usually Quarter Saw.

If this were mine, I'd slab it......what can I expect if I Quarter Saw it?



 
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

White Ash

The thing about milling is that people feel they have these gems of trees just because they are old.  That tree is not a prime specimen for quarter sawn lumber and you will not get much out of it.  Obviously you know that already. 

Be honest with customers and help them understand the reality.

hackberry jake

What diameter is it? Id prolly quarter saw it. Sapwood aint all bad.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

The log in the pic is 24 inch. Its the second log up the tree. The butt log was to big for him to bring.
He explained to me the WIDE lumber he could get opposite the pith.

Honestly....I have seen logs like this and I have never quarter sawn it because I like to quarter saw my large logs with the pith running directly through the center.

If he wants it.....he will get it. Just wanted to find out if y'all have quart sawn a "way off" center pith log.

White Ash.....yes we know this is not a prime log....but to him it is. It came out of his yard.  ::)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

drobertson

What's perfect these days?  q-saw it, leave stock for planning and move on.   The end product is his, he could mess up the best of lumber, not your fault,   not much else to say David,      david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Jim H

I've q-sawn logs like that. You have to work to the location of the pith rather than the center of the log, wider boards on one side narrower on the other. A couple of things you might want to mention to the customer; this log had a relatively fast growth rate, in my experience fast growers don't produce heavy ray or fleck patterns, also I see at least one defect in the picture. Defects are MUCH harder to cut around and eliminate in q-sawing vs grade sawing. There's a good chance He'll be happy with the lumber anyway since it came from his yard. :)
2008 LT40HDG28, autoclutch, debarker, stihl 026, 046, ms460 bow, 066, JD 2350 4wd w/245 loader, sawing since '94 fulltime since '98

ddcuning

I have quarter sawn some like that coming up with two larger quarters and two quarter shaped sticks of fire wood. That is....keeping the pith as the center of the quarters. I agree lots of sap wood and who knows how it will turn out. I have had some oak sap wood look just fine and other not take stain well when furniture is made from it.

I have not sawed for customers to date so I will q-saw about anything that is 24" and over in diameter.

Dave C
We're debt free!!! - Dave C, Nov 2015

Peter Drouin

Sometimes you just have to do what the customer wants. You can tell them all kinds of things. But sometimes they want what they want. :D :D :D :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

okmulch

Give the customer your opinion and knowledge, and then put the ball in their court and let them decide. Its their log their choice in my book. I saw what the customer wants and I get the price I want to saw it.
Rotochopper b66 track, #2 Rotochopper b66 track, woodmizer lt40, CAT 277b, CAT 268b, CAT 287c, CAT 277c, CAT299d2, CAT299d3, CAT 299d3, Volvo 70e,volvo70f, volvo90f

Solomon

Quote from: okmulch on November 02, 2013, 08:04:40 AM
Give the customer your opinion and knowledge, and then put the ball in their court and let them decide. Its their log their choice in my book. I saw what the customer wants and I get the price I want to saw it.
I concure ,  let the customer call the shots.  Do what he wants and get paid.  If you've made him aware of the facts and variables,
the end result is his dog and pony show.  As somone said earlier in this post, he will likely be happy with it anyway because the log came from his yard and he made all the decisions.  Tell him what great choices he made, and he will  bring you repeat buisness or send another customer your way.
The bottom line is,  people like to feel good, and feel good about about what they are doing and they like folks who make them feel that way.
My Grandfather used to tell me,
"No matter how good you are at what you do, (you can be the best in the world), but, if people don't like you,  you will never be successful, and the Jack Leg down the road will be making all the money while you starve."
Rule Number One: " The customer is always right.
Rule Number Two: When the customer is wrong, refer to Rule Number One. 
Stick to theese princaples and the money will flow from his pocket to yours.
Just make sure he leaves happy, because that is what he is "REALLY" paying for, not the board footage.
Time and Money,  If you have the one, you rarely have the other.

The Path to Salvation is narrow, and the path to damnnation is wide.

Peter Drouin

Quote from: Solomon on November 02, 2013, 09:14:17 AM
Quote from: okmulch on November 02, 2013, 08:04:40 AM
Give the customer your opinion and knowledge, and then put the ball in their court and let them decide. Its their log their choice in my book. I saw what the customer wants and I get the price I want to saw it.
I concure ,  let the customer call the shots.  Do what he wants and get paid.  If you've made him aware of the facts and variables,
the end result is his dog and pony show.  As somone said earlier in this post, he will likely be happy with it anyway because the log came from his yard and he made all the decisions.  Tell him what great choices he made, and he will  bring you repeat buisness or send another customer your way.
The bottom line is,  people like to feel good, and feel good about about what they are doing and they like folks who make them feel that way.
My Grandfather used to tell me,
"No matter how good you are at what you do, (you can be the best in the world), but, if people don't like you,  you will never be successful, and the Jack Leg down the road will be making all the money while you starve."
Rule Number One: " The customer is always right.
Rule Number Two: When the customer is wrong, refer to Rule Number One. 
Stick to theese princaples and the money will flow from his pocket to yours.
Just make sure he leaves happy, because that is what he is "REALLY" paying for, not the board footage.



smiley_thumbsup
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

delvis

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 01, 2013, 09:01:19 PM

White Ash.....yes we know this is not a prime log....but to him it is. It came out of his yard.  ::)

Came out of his yard?  No thank you, I don't need any extra nails today.
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

Solomon

Quote from: delvis on November 02, 2013, 02:13:09 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 01, 2013, 09:01:19 PM

White Ash.....yes we know this is not a prime log....but to him it is. It came out of his yard.  ::)

Came out of his yard?  No thank you, I don't need any extra nails today.
I second that when sawing for my self.  However, if the customer is paying for the blades and any other wear anr tear due to his job, I will saw cannon balls in half all day long for him if it maks him happy.   Again ,  The customer is always right and alway smarter than I am when he's paying me.
Time and Money,  If you have the one, you rarely have the other.

The Path to Salvation is narrow, and the path to damnnation is wide.

red oaks lumber

wow, the customer is not always right! :(
they look to us as the experts for advice, even if they don't say so. i wont let a customer have something made that i know is wrong.
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Solomon

Don't get me wrong, The point I am trying to convey is that  "once the customet has been presented with all the facts and I have conveyed my point that his plans may not be prudent".   if he still wants to do it,  and he's  footing the bill,  hey...  I will saw his truck in half for him if that's what he want's.  Of course, that would be a cash up front job !!!!!
Time and Money,  If you have the one, you rarely have the other.

The Path to Salvation is narrow, and the path to damnnation is wide.

Sixacresand

Post, you had quarter saw training in Georgia.  Go for it.  :D
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

Nomad

     I explained to a customer that splitting a 24" cant in half to make 2x12s might not be a good idea.  He said do it anyway.  I asked him later how his boards turned out.  His reply:  "I should have listened to you."
     What else can you do?  Give your best advice and let the customer make the decisions about you turning his own logs into his own boards.
Buying a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter
WoodMizer LT50HDD51-WR
Lucas DSM23-19

Peter Drouin

Quote from: Solomon on November 02, 2013, 04:03:13 PM


he's  footing the bill,  hey...  I will saw his truck in half for him if that's what he want's.  !!!!!




:D :D :D :D :D :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Okrafarmer

Quote from: delvis on November 02, 2013, 02:13:09 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 01, 2013, 09:01:19 PM

White Ash.....yes we know this is not a prime log....but to him it is. It came out of his yard.  ::)

Came out of his yard?  No thank you, I don't need any extra nails today.

Nails are no problem whatsoever for a bandmill. I hit 14 nails in one log last week. I got the check from the lumber today. I told my customer that I hit 14 nails in the log and I think I got most of them pulled, but to look carefully at each piece of wood before working it. (and that there was a possibility there were nails I missed entirely hidden in the 6/4 lumber). He didn't mind-- it was the only ambrosia maple he could find at such a low price ($3 / bf). I do not mind hitting nails anymore, now that my sharpener is working!  ;) I especially don't mind hitting them when I am custom milling, because I charge hourly. I charge $10 for every nail I hit requiring a blade change, and I am still charging hourly as I change the blade. Not only that, but I'm not using up any gas while I'm changing the blade!
8)


  

  

 
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

I didn't have any pictures of the log before I started. The picture at the bottom has 4 2X4's and a 4X4's-- those also came out of the log as well as around 100 bf of 6/4. The 6/4 went to the one customer, and the 4x4 and 2x4's are for another customer. I should get around $80 for the remaining wood in addition to the $275 or so I charged for the rest of it. (gave the customer a little break due to all the nail holes!)  :D
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

As far as the oak log, I agree with those who say to explain to the customer why it may not be a great idea to QS it, and then let him decide. It would be better yet if he can be there to watch as you do it (explaining why you are doing what you are doing all along the way). He may change his mind as he sees what you have to go through and so on. Also, I would definitely charge hourly for QS-ing, but then again I charge hourly for all my custom work.  ;)
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

And though I don't have a whole lot of experience in the QS department, I have done a little bit of it. I've found that in trees where the pith grows off-center, usually there is a lot of stress in the log. QSing the large off-center section seems to actually be a good idea, but I would recommend doing that, while flat-sawing the other three sides. Tell the customer the best plan is to QS the biggest part, and flat saw the others into thin boards (4/4 or thinner) which can be pinned down on the bottom of the sticker stack under more stable wood.

Then how I would do it-- I would put a narrow flat (6 inches or so) on the top and bottom sides of the cant (that is, the bulge side and the slight side), then slab the other two sides off down to a cant that is approximately 12 inches wide. At this point you have a cant that is fairly balanced stress-wise. Then I would flip the slight side up and peel thin boards off it until you get down near the pith. Then I would take at least one more thin board off the two flat sides, reducing the width of the cant to around 10". Then I would put the pith side up, and take a thick piece off including the pith. this piece may be around 4" thick or so, so a 4X10 approximately. Or maybe a little less thick, depending on how straight you think the pith line may be. But you want to get all the pith off. If you find that with this cut, you don't get all the pith, then take another thin cut off to get past the pith and the worst of the juvenile wood.

Once you have the pith off, the remaining cant, which may be approximately 10" by 12" or so, with a narrow flat side on the bark side, should be relatively stable. If you want, you can then flip it so the bark side with the narrow flat is up, and peel another thin layer or two off to get rid of some of the sap wood, but it may not be necessary.

Now you have a relatively stable cant. Lay it on its side so that you quartersaw the rest of it. Flipping it 180 after each cut. Of course the two outer cuts, in particular, will be more rift than quarter, but the middle six inches or so of cuts should be fairly qs'd. Do remember to flip that final cant after each cut.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

AnthonyW

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 01, 2013, 09:01:19 PM
The log in the pic is 24 inch. Its the second log up the tree. The butt log was to big for him to bring.
He explained to me the WIDE lumber he could get opposite the pith.


Sounds to me like he already knows about the issue/problem. It looks like you will only be able to quartersaw the larger half. Maybe half quarter sawn and half flat sawn?
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

LeeB

Just how far off center is the pith actually? It doesn't look all that far out to me. Think about a rectangle instead of a round and keep the pith centered on the vertical axis with equal amounts of wood to either side of it and it shouldn't be too bad. Same as you would do when sawing an off center log through and through. As mentioned, you might want to just take the 6 or so boards from the center, that will be quarter sawn, by sawing through and through and the rest flat sawn.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Thank You Sponsors!