A lot of guys up here are cutting ahead of the processor with a buncher and say it doubles their production. Wondering how many of you do it and how does it work for you? I haven't seen it done yet so I'm going to check out another contractors job to see how they lay the wood out for the processor
Although I haven't done it some local contractors have used that method. I think where it would really shine is when there are a lot of unmerchantable stems to deal with. The buncher can dispose of them much quicker than a dangle head. The type of head you are using will also have a effect on your production. Heads designed for processing generally have only top grab/delimbing arms and they are longer than some others types of harvesting heads.
Downside = another machine to maintain and repair
The majority of CTL crews are doing this in my area.
It's the route / system I'm trying to duplicate because it does make sense.
I'm trying to figure out if that's the best route or add another processor. My processor is on the small side and with adding a buncher I'm still limited to what it can process, with two processors I would think they would stay ahead and keep the forwarder busy all the time. Right now I can't cut enough to stay ahead of the forwarder every day, I've also been thinking about going to a dangle head to up production
Quote from: deastman on May 26, 2017, 07:50:05 PM
I'm trying to figure out if that's the best route or add another processor. My processor is on the small side and with adding a buncher I'm still limited to what it can process, with two processors I would think they would stay ahead and keep the forwarder busy all the time. Right now I can't cut enough to stay ahead of the forwarder every day, I've also been thinking about going to a dangle head to up production
I've kind of made my mind up I'm going to buy something with a 4-roller here shortly because everyone says they are simple and close to bulletproof, but you are limited on size. I'm talking on a 120 class, I'm doing some residential work where it would shine, if ground is to rugged in the woods hot feed it with my 2 skidders to a landing in the woods. Anyway, I talked with a guy the other day for 1hr on the phone, another contact made thru the FF 😂, this guy is almost the authority on Timbco / Timberpro. Theres a 620E for sale online, dealer doesnt know much about it, this guy the other day gave me the history from day one, and told me what the dealer is going to take for it, it's the one that sits in NJ/PA with the log max 7000 on it, actually a deal if your looking to go dangle.
My 4 roller has been bulletproof but my carrier is a 130 and I'd like to have a heavier one like a 501 or a 415 . I need a little more hp and hyd power.
I would say if you want more power, go with the 415. You won't get it with a 501 in my opinion.
I'ts hard for me to see how adding the cost of another man and machine to an operation could be a cost savings.
I have processed for another guy who fell and whole tree skid to a landing where I processed the large Scotch Pine and refused to do that again. Problem is you can bury yourself quickly with the processed wood and slash. You need another guy to clear the piles or it can become messy. Plus those dangle head knives are not made for picking trees out of a pile.
If you are processing at the stump or nearby from bunches, it still is not easy to pick trees from piles or even individually. I have done some form of that process in some areas where I did not have enough room to fell and process at the stump with one operation and it was not a faster process.
Yes there are times when it would be easier to out muscle a tree with a four roller tracked machine but even then, faster is not one of the advantages I would consider to be an advantage. With a lot of small stems, yes those dangle heads are slow and I've never bent more bars and thrown more chains that in small stuff. But still on the average, a good operator in a processer should be able to out cut any two machines because of fewer operations in the process.
I think if you were going to put a buncher in front of a processer, adding a limber for big hardwood limbs will make a surprisingly big impact on production. I think big limbs are one of the things that slow me down the most in a harvester. I would also recommend going with a dangle head that's designed for picking from piles rather than a fixed head. If you didn't want to do that, I know there's more than one company that makes aftermarket knives that are designed for picking from bundles and they make a big difference. Our Ponsse h8 came with them, and for digging through tops the way it was set up was awesome, but for general use I didn't like it and made some changes. If you are sold on fixed heads, look into the JP Skidmore heads. In my opinion, they are going to be the best fixed head on the market.
Most guys out here skid or shovel log tree length into a dangle head. Buncher out front. They get good production. With tree farms cutting their rotation on 45-50 years rather than 65 like they used too the production is going down a bit.
Variables - Depends on the terrain's slope, how wet the soil is for how long, tree size, mixed tree species stands etc, logging/ environment rules - no dragging etc. Fuel costs, wood prices etc.
What machines have the best support? - Option A -might go for a felling head on a buncher, shovel the difficult places where the forwarder is going to be slow if loaded, keep the processing going with the small processing machine, when there is plenty of wood on the ground swap the felling head to a processing head on the buncher to keep ahead of the the forwarder.
I assume you only have two operators in the woods - the processor and forwarder operator.
Option B- light swappable processing head on the forwarder, on easy terrain the small tracked processor just felling and aligning branched stems. Chainsaw to take off heavy tree branches.
Not many operations prebunching wood up here, in fact I only know of one. One of our contract cutters runs an old JD track buncher ahead of his processor, a pretty new Ponsse Ergo. I got sent to their job this winter to help them catch up, we had 4 forwarders on that job :o They are usually in large aspen clearcuts when they use the buncher. When you put over a hundred cords on the landing in a day, and there's another forwarder working with you yet the processor is getting away from you, they are putting out a lot of wood. I would venture a guess that their production goes up at least 50% with the buncher, as well as a lot less hose and bar and chain maintenance.
I've been told if i add a buncher it wouldn't have to work that much to stay ahead of the processor and would probably sit a lot. Not sure if that route would keep wood ahead of the forwarder all the time. Right now I can't cut enough to stay ahead and the forwarder's not working near full capacity. I've been thinking for the past year about adding another processor. With two processors I would think it would keep the forwarder going full time. Or maybe switching to a dangle head would up production, trying to figure out which option would work best for me
When I ran processor I was always able to keep enough wood on the ground that the forwarder was always busy. Once we upgraded processors it was no trouble to get a few days ahead of the forwarder when the wood was good. This was cutting off the stump not bunched wood.
Typical wood our rubber tire dangle head processors each keep a forwader busy. It all ebbs and flows, sometimes we get a long skid and decent wood, the forwarder can fall behind. Ratty wood, the forwader is right on the processor, and having to take days off. In great wood, a processor can bury a forwarder or two, or even more. We have the benefit of having a fleet of machines so that we can shuffle machines around to even things out. Sometimes, in low production wood like swamp black spruce, I might be forwarding up to 3 processors myself, or I often get put on a high production job to help another forwarder and let a different processor get a week or two ahead. I would look into a dangle head machine before I went to a feller buncher.
I will also note, a few guys have traded in 703 JD track dangle head machines on new Ponsse Ergo rubber tire dangle machines. I've heard claims of guys besting their all time best production with the 703 on the third day in the new Ergo, and they didn't feel all beat up to boot. I think a rubber tire is a far more versatile machine. We have around 10 processors going between company and contract cutters, all Ponsse Ergos. Not a track based processor in the whole spread. We had a Ponsse Bear for bigger wood, but that ended up going down the road for an Ergo 8W. The Bear was impressive in big stuff but not nearly as fast as the Ergo in smaller wood. My point, I guess, is I think a mid-sized rubber tire dangle head is the way to fly for most at the stump processing.
How do the dangle heads work when there's a lot of regen you're trying to save? I've never run a rubber-tired processor or even a dangle head but the smoother ride and not being all beat up at the end of the day sounds great. With my fixed head I lay all the trees down ahead of me where I'm cutting my trail so not to damage any trees off to the sides , can you do that with a dangle head?
99% of what I processed was select cut thinning jobs, with a large majority of them being Fed sales. Needless to say if you damaged too many residual trees you would find yourself in hot water. Once you know what your doing you actually have great directional control with a dangle head machine.
Shouldn't you have the first log cut before the tree hits the ground? I know it can be done sometimes
The Rottne salesman is taking me to a demo of one of their new processors next week so I can see how they do, he used to sell a lot of 501's with fixed heads and now he says the dangle head is the way to go
That would be Jared. Nice enough guy for a salesman. He worked for cat. Google his name and you will know why he dose not work for them. You may have read about it in the bangor paper.
Ya I've known him from his days at Cat, he helped me with my four-roller when I first got it, he was a big help. He's helping me now with learning about the whole dangle head approach. Nortrax has a 501 with a Prentice(Cat) dangle head that I looked at and he's the guy I call when I have questions about Cat rigs. He can tell you who bought it new, who else has owned it since and how good their maintenance program was and if there were any major issues with it. Don't you have a Rottne? I need to get down and see yours work
yes i do. so you know the story then?
10-4 on the story
I would have to say that expecting to double production with the addition of a buncher is a bit much. It does increase production, but not quite by double. We have a few people chasing bunchers with our JP Skidmore fixed heads, and they report good results. Less fuel consumed by processor due to less tracking, reduced undercarriage wear, neater and larger piles for the forwarder, etc... It is another payment, and another operator to consider. I think it all depends on what type of wood you find yourself in and what works best for you. We have some guys that can keep ahead of 2 double bunk forwarders while cutting off the stump with a single harvester, and some that run a buncher, 2 processors, and only run one forwarder.
I wouldn't say that in order to follow a buncher, you need to be running a dangle head. We have had good luck and good response from operators running our fixed heads behind a buncher. We also can customize the knives to be better suited to picking from piles. Operators report 8-10 cords per hour, leaning towards 10 when following a buncher.
Here is a video of one of our systems cutting out of buncher piles. (Note: It's this particular operators first time working out of a pile ever, he normally cuts off the stump but for the purposes of the particular demonstration, I think he did just fine.)
https://youtu.be/aU7luB6quhE (https://youtu.be/aU7luB6quhE)
Nice video and I agree completely with what you said.
What are the three sorts you are running?
Logs, bolts, and pulp. Thanks.
JLeBouton I agree the operator did just fine. I must say though that cutting poplar like that off the stump should also generate some great production numbers.
I've owned CTL equipment for 10 years and been around it since 2000. I can't figure out how it would pay for itself machinery is expensive, i guess if you had a bunch of worn out stuff with no payments it would work. It's another fuel tank to fill another person to employ, maintenance on it to keep up with. It makes more sense to me to run 2 shifts on your processor if you need to increase production.
There's a lot of variables, but it can certainly pencil out in some circumstances. A few things to consider- the processor stays "in the wood" continously, rather than driving back and forth grabbing trees and pulling them back to piles. Bent bars and thrown chains are about eleminated. Basically, you are using each machine in it's most productive form. 1270d and their outfit run a new Ponsse Scorpion behind a new TimberPro buncher, and pick it up with a new Ponsse Buffalo. They would get behind on the payments mighty fast if it wasn't profitable. One other situation that comes to mind, a friend that was running a Ponsse Ergo down in Georgia thinning pine would hire a Bell with a buncher head if the understory was overgrown (hadn't been burned). Obviously a Bell runs way cheaper than a track buncher, but whatever it cost per ton he said he came out ahead, because the thick brush continously threw chains. This way he just drove along and processed piles, his production increase offset the costs by far.
Quote from: barbender on June 04, 2017, 01:22:27 PM
There's a lot of variables, but it can certainly pencil out in some circumstances. A few things to consider- the processor stays "in the wood" continously, rather than driving back and forth grabbing trees and pulling them back to piles. Bent bars and thrown chains are about eleminated. Basically, you are using each machine in it's most productive form. 1270d and their outfit run a new Ponsse Scorpion behind a new TimberPro buncher, and pick it up with a new Ponsse Buffalo. They would get behind on the payments mighty fast if it wasn't profitable. One other situation that comes to mind, a friend that was running a Ponsse Ergo down in Georgia thinning pine would hire a Bell with a buncher head if the understory was overgrown (hadn't been burned). Obviously a Bell runs way cheaper than a track buncher, but whatever it cost per ton he said he came out ahead, because the thick brush continously threw chains. This way he just drove along and processed piles, his production increase offset the costs by far.
I can see the upside of it i run a disc saw bottom on a rolly, i haven't thrown a chain or bent a bar in 9 years and don't miss it. One guy near me does it but they say trees can't be cut easily with a dangle head. If we had better quotas i would hire another operator to run both machines after the first 2 guys leave should get at least 10 more loads a week by only hiring one man and not a half million dollar machine. Just my .02
I completely understand where you're coming from, CTL. But I think it can work in some situations.
I appreciate all the comments, some guys say it works good and others say it doesn't. I've gotta do some more research on it
Deastman, it's hard to say. If your cutting scattered, small wood, it will be tough to make production increase very much. You'd probably be better served by getting a rubber tire dangle head processor, IMO.
You really have to watch a bunch/process system before you believe in it. It makes the processor far more efficient.
Any given operator has "x" amount of mental ability. When working bunch piles there is a significant amount of the mental strain associated with route planning and tree felling that is made available for maximizing processing efficiency. Boom time can be almost zero with a good layout. Same for drive time.
Usually it will have a heavier footprint than processing at the stump because of the need for many trees to be laid out at their full length.
We run feller bunchers ahead of all of our processors, production is roughly double what we can get when cutting off the stump. The stands we normally harvest have high amounts of unmerchantables which really slow down production if we had to cut without a buncher.
A buncher also virtually eliminates bending bars and chain life is also a lot longer, last year running 7 processors double shift we only went through 80 bars and 385 chains in total for the year.
I have to believe this is completely dependent on the type of jobs you are cutting. Are these jobs clear-cuts, hardwood thinning's, softwood thinning's or something else?
I do mostly softwood thinning's and normally cut between 4 and 5 cords per hour. Size of trees and amount of slope can cause more variation but no way could I see doubling those rates.
On aspen clearcuts, most guys I know can fly thru those at 60 and up to 125 cords per day with just a harvester but again it is tree size dependent. I can't see doubling those rates.
They can in aspen clearcuts. I've seen 180-200 cords per day.
This is a picture of a row of our forwarders lined up to get moved after finishing a job. Four forwarders that were picking up behind 1 processor, that was following a buncher in an aspen clearcut. Make of that what you will, as far as production is concerned ;)
The guy that cut my lot brought a hotsaw. He was just laying down the wood and than a processor would come in behind him. He was trying to get away from the throwing the chain on cutting small stuff,like 2-3 inches. Just trying to do a neater job,thinning. I think he sold it.