This has probably been covered in peices in various posts but I have not seen any post specifically addressing the planning of the wiring system in a Log or TF home. This is curious to me as it probably causes the most problems.
As I see it there are 3 major areas to plan for minimal requirements.
1. Receptacles
2. Switches
3. Lighting
Other areas may include mechanical devices and HVAC, low voltage wiring for computers, TV, phones, Audio/Visual/Media systems and outdoor lighting
We usually think about receptacle and switch placement but overhead lighting can be a big problem especially if there is no accessible overhead space (ie. SIPS, or no attic). For instance, owner wants recessed lights in cathedral style room. Owner wants celing fans mounted on bottom of tie beams etc.
I thought it might be interesting to share how some of these challenges have been dealt with or catastrophies that have been created and how they were resolved while complying with codes that are primarily designed for stick built homes.
I know there are a dozen books that discuss this but every job is different and some call for unique and creative solutions. It is these that I am interested in.
Pictures would be a plus.
Great topic Bob. I am coming up to start to figure some of this too.
I am doing full exposed posts/beams and likely SIPS so it is a wonder to me too. I will likely do my walls with vertical pine first. I had it suggested that the wiring be bundled together and tacked at agreed height to the outside of the posts and they could notch out the foam/single layer osb SIPS to mount over it.
That seems ok but the part I need to start looking at is the hanging lights, ceiling fans, plasma TV, surround sound, etc.
I know there has to be 8 different ways to do it so thanks for starting this thread Bob !!
Mark
I have some stuff that I can't post because it's copy write stuff.
But if you want a copy send me a personal email, in an instant message, and I'll forward the stuff to you.
Jim Rogers
One thing to remember is the notching allowances. No notches in the middle third of span. That notch can be you're recessed box. The wire hole from top of beam to bottom is another concern that should be considered in the design phase.
One way we solved this at the engineer's suggestion on one job last year; I asked if I could inset a shallow pancake box in the floor joist bottoms and run a 5/8" hole through the joists to the box. He allowed one small hole and said "No Way!" on my insetting the box. He then came back with having us bore a 4" hole in a small square of matching 1x6 that I edge routed to doll it up a little and tacked that to the beam, then setting the pancake box in that 4" hole.
We ran into similar issues, having fully-exposed timers and SIPs for the roof.
One thing we did in our home, thanks to our timber framer bringing it up well ahead of time, was to go ahead and get the ceiling fan wiring done before the roof panels and second story flooring were put in place. This consisted of routing a small channel in the tops of the rafters (for cathedral ceiling fans) and floor joists (for bedroom ceiling fans on first floor). The wire would then drop down through a small hole coming through the rafter or joist.
As far as lighting, in some areas we had to resort to using mostly sconce/wall-mount lights, which was actually just fine for us. But had we wanted ceiling-mount lights it woulda been difficult w/ a 2x6 T&G floor/ceiling above.
We had 2x6 studwalls so things were pretty easy as far as switches and outlets. I've heard of some people with SIPs walls going with log-home style baseboard wiring, instead of wiring through the SIPs channels.
We had sips on the TF and preplanned for them to install conduits to blue plastic boxes in those. These were connected through holes in the floor with flex conduit. I did run a few wires beside furring strips on the perimeter. We moved 2 and I was able to do a little creative tunneling and sprayfoaming to get them over a foot or so to where we wanted them.
For log I've never liked the baseboard wiring. We usually mark the subfloor with window door and wall locations then mark all electrical within the walls making sure to avoid boring joists and beams below. We then bore into the crawl/basement and carry the holes up to mortised in boxes, then continue to the wall top where necessary. We run banding through the holes to assure we made it and to provide a fish for the sparky. On slab on grade it all comes down from above.
In a few locations we have had to run conduit in buried channels in joists and beams containing wires, not a bad idea.
The main thing is it takes more preplanning.
For myself can lights in the roof have been nothing but a nightmare. In one case I tried my best to talk them out of them, and hear about "those darn can lights" every time we talk :-\.
I used cans in my own home in a exposed beam ceiling and will never use them again. We also installed valance lighting in the eaves where the walls meet the ceiling and they worked out great. I wired three porcelain lamp bases in each bay and put them on two switches for the great room. One in the middle of each bay on one switch and two more in each bay closer to the beams. You can't use dimmers when using compact fluorescent so with switch 1, I get a low intensity, with switch 2, I get a medium intensity and with both I get the highest. All with the savings of CF bulbs. We hardly ever use the cans. An unsightly waste of time and money. Joe
When channeling the tops of the beams for wiring did you use any type of steel nail plate to protect from SIP screws? I am planning to use this method to do the rafters and purlins for ceiling lighting. A small hole down thru the purlin and mount a 4"round box on the bottom of purlin without notching. ;) Cover it with a peice of SCH 40 painted to match fixture and hide the box. Also considering track lighting mounted to the side of purlins. No cans in the open ceiling portion for me. ;D Thinking about using some eave lighting as Logwalker mentioned but using LED rope lighting instead of CF's which is dimmable. He has a nice solution though. Has anyone tried window lighting over the window? Saw it done once using small cans. Gives a nice effect but probably a real pain to pull off.
I recently looked at a RF controlled lighting system. All of the switching/dimming can be done from a small radio transmitter. It can be carried around the house or you can have them mounted in single gang boxes next to the doors similar to conventional switches. A conventional switch setup with equivalent capabilities would take a 6-8 gang setup. If you plan out the circuits you can pretty much eliminate switches and travellers. 8) (lots of time and wire and often trouble especially in Logs) Even existing lights/receptacles can be retrofitted with a switch receiver which is controlled by the remote.
The downside is batteries for the controllers have to be replaced on occasion and I don't know what the long term reliability of the system will be. Would be ugly to have to go back later and put in travellers and 3&4 way switches because they quit making a circuit board or something. :(
For my receptacles I am considering running a 1" ENT or "Smurf" conduit behind a 6" tall mopboard around the perimeter with boxes mounted in the Mopboard. I always hate cords draping from the wall to the floor like a waterfall. It also give you some flexibilty in the future for changing out circuits or adding circuits unlike the stapled Romex method
I might do a few recessed cans in the bed/bath area as that is standard floorjoist/sheetrock area.
Good thoughts/ideas/discussion. Let's keep it goin'
I will try to post some pictures as I channel my beams/purlins as well as some pictures of the radio control system if anyone is interested.
Jim, I will email you for your info! Thanks
I do have a few shots of lighting that I can show.
Here is one of a pendant light in a restored barn to be used as an office space:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/DSCF0067-s.JPG)
Here is another one of the same building:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/DSCF0070-s.JPG)
Here is one showing a recessed light behind the top edge of a straining beam on the second floor bedroom in a thatched roof timber frame house in Maine:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/o%20Master%20bedroom%20gable%20end-s.jpg)
Jim Rogers
I don't have a lot of pictures, but I can try to explain what I did in my house to solve the wiring problem. There's parts of it that I don't like even now, and I'll address that.
First - the house is a timber frame with SIPS, both roof and walls. Interior partitions are either 2x4 or 2x6 studs. For the exterior walls, we cut holes in the inside panels of the SIPS and installed old-work boxes at standard height. The nice thing about that is that we could put boxes anywhere at all, not just on studs. Then we bored up from the basement with a lex auger bit to the back of the box, ran the wire and spray foamed the chase. That was the first floor. In the studs walls it was all run conventionally.
For the second floor, we couldn't figure out how to auger up twelve feet through a SIP, and I didn't have any vertical chases in the panels (there's solution #1). What I did was to run all the wiring for the second floor to a pair of junction boxes, and then built a false floor, basically a chase under the flooring for the entire area, and ran wires under the floor. It's not ideal but it worked. If you look at the floor system between the first and second floors, as a sandwich, starting at the bottom - it's 2x6 T&G pine as the ceiling for floor #1, then 1" thick strapping every 16", then 1" thick wide-plank pine flooring. The wiring is run between the strapping.
Lighting is done much the same way, except that my planning for lighting was a bit poor, I don't ave enough lights in some areas and they're in some lousy locations in others. I only hvae recessed can in areas where there is a drywall ceiling and space above the room (bathrooms, and a couple closets). Everything else is wall sconces or surface mount lighting, and nothing is on a panel wall or ceiling.
What would I have done differently? Two major things. First, I would have asked the panel manufacturer to cut vertical chases in each panel at 12" on center. That would have allowed me a little (very little) less flexibility in where I put outlets, but a LOT easier time running the wires. Second, and I've seen it in other houses, I would have installed the 2x6 T&G pine for a ceiling in the entire house (could have used 1x6, I guess) and then built a full suspended joist system under the entire second floor. I probably would have set 2x4 sleepers on each horizontal beam, over the T&G below, and then ran a full 2x8 or open-web truss (9-1/2" deep) over the entire floor. That would have given me unlimited flexibility for plumbing, electrical wiring, can or recessed lighting, partition walls, or just about anything else. I could have treated the second floor just like it was the first floor. Run all plumbing, HVAC and wiring before you lay down a subfloor, and you could even effectively do in-floor radiant (which I sort-of did in the upstairs bathrooms, it was staple-up from below) without blinking an eye. The only thing I would have lost was a foot of headroom, which I could have gained back anyway by making my frame posts a foot longer. With some carefully planned access points, I could fish wires anywhere in the house.
My poor planning makes me feel like I screwed up my house. Nobody will ever know except me, but the way I COULD HAVE done it makes me want to rip it all out and start over... :( but I won't.
what i did for my log home with cathedral, ridgebeam and purlin ceilings was a lot of preplanning. The house had a basement,main level and loft that covered half the upstairs, 3000 sq ft total.
I ran the wiring for the mail level in the floor joists along the foundation, and mortised plug recepticals into the first course of logs. This was very easy to do.
I ran the wires for switches up the chase I cut in the stack logs for the door bucks. then drilled a few inches outboard into mortised recepticals. No extra work for wiring log here either.
I designed in a main utility chase that connected all the stacked bathrooms and kitchen. This brought all wiring,hvac and plumbing up to the loft area.
I routed out a chase on the top of the logs used for floor joists and rafter\purlin logs for overhead lighting. I covered these with metal so they would not get nails in them.
as for switchplate covers, lighting etc,, well,, ;D ;D being a traditional blacksmith,, i made all of these in my shop.
for what its worth,, i also made all my draw knives, log dogs nicely forged, spud bars, j-bolts, washers,brackets,hardware, etc,, etc..
It was a great project.
I am building my new blacksmith shop,and doing it the same way.. but out of hand layed stone and swedish coped logs on top... oh,, and much of my iron,, hidden or otherwise.
anvil
Pictures 8). Thanks Jim and thanks also for the email. Unfortunately I misplaced the digital camera the other day and it has not shown back up. I ordered a new one and with any luck it should be here first of next week. I will try to get some pics up on the radio system. If anyone is interested in the meanwhile it is made by Lutron. They probably have plenty of info on their website. Lot's of neat ideas popping up here.
Anvil, care sharing some examples of your custom switch covers? Sounds neat.
Hey Anvil, by any chance did you hammer out a digital camera while at the forge? ;) Would sure like to see some pictures of your project. Joe
Bob,
You asked if anyone has ever used the RF controlled switches. Yes I have. They functioned for the 3 years I was in that house. If I recall I did have a bit of a problem with lightning/electrical surge turning on the lights or causing me to reset the switches.
IMO, I would run the wiring and not rely on the RF switches. ;)
max
logwalker,,
Lol,, yea i did manage to forge out a digital camera in my shop!! ;D I will post some pics as soon as i figure out how to do that,, any help would be appreciated.
Also, I am on my older 'puter,,and don't have enough space for my graphics program, so the pics are a bit too big for internet. I have the parts, just need a weather break to get my new system up and running. My deadline for my new shop is first of the year,,and at 9000', good weather means work outside!! So pray for snow,, but not too soon,, still got stone to lay...
Thehardway,,
Same goes for my switch plate covers. I have done quite a few of these over the years mostly for Adobe and log houses. For my house, i put the boxes on the centerline of the log, so they were pretty standard (with a slight curve to them),, no deep box covers as when you put them in between two logs,, hehe,, they weren't quite standard,, its all in the details.
anvil
anvil,
If you email me some pics I will shrink them to acceptable size and post them for you. I fianlly got Adobe Photshop installed and working and it is acutally pretty easy now for me to post pics to the forum. PM me and I will give you my email
Thehardway..
I sent you a pm. If I did it right..
anvil
Here are anvils pics..
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12478/shop-front1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12478/forged-log-dogs1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12478/south-east-corner-log-first-fit1.jpg)
Quote from: anvil on October 29, 2007, 07:10:28 PM
...............I am building my new blacksmith shop,and doing it the same way.. but out of hand layed stone and swedish coped logs on top... oh,, and much of my iron,, hidden or otherwise.
anvil
Are these posted pics by Thehardway of the new blacksmith shop mentioned here?
I beleive so. I forgot to label the pictures as sent. They were labeled 1. Shop front. 2 forged log dog. 3 southeast corner log first fit. some nice scribe work but hard to show in the picture size. I will try to crop it and make it a little easier to see.
Thehardsway,,
Thanks much for posting my pics..
Yup,, this is my new shop nearly done, believe it or not, I send him some more pics that should show things a bit better.
anvil
Ok , here are the rest of the picture anvil sent me.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12478/raising-Door-Bucks1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12478/barn-door-bucks-11.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12478/coped-mortis-and-tenon-1st-fit1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12478/coped-mortis-and-tenon-finished1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12478/north-east-corner-stone-and-log1.jpg)
Anvil, that is an ambitious project. Are you going to be closed in by winter? And what is the story on the large bandsaw in the background. Joe
Anvil
What can you tell us about the logs you are using, as shown in your pics? Did you use the muriatic acid treatment on them to get the weathered look, or are they old logs?
Also, a comment about the low header and the size of the logs...just curious. ;D
Where ya building at?
beenthere,,
The logs ar ponderosa.. all materials came from the property,so I am dealing with what i have locally.. :D part of the dream. I peeled them about two years ago, so the color is natural, which is what I wanted. I do know how to color logs,, muriatic will lighten them, but if you dissolve iron filings in the acid,, you can darken them as well. I don't want to do this,, but play with the colors as they are.. with some yellow logs on the top for accents.
Hehe,, the low header is an optical illusion due to the size of the logs and rocks. the height to the bottom of the header is about 8'6" and inside opening is about 12'. the butts of the logs are around 20".
I am located just west of Colorado Springs,Colorado
logwalker,,
that it is,, an ambitious project,, It has been in the planning for about 4 years. I spent the first year hauling rocks and logs,, the next year I excavated the site and put in the footer.
I was going to just blaze off the ground but hit three springs. So I took it down 2'. then I hit another spring nearly dead center in the shopspace,,so put in a french drain on the diagonal and filled it with decomposed gravel. I still had a water problem, so put another french drain at the top of the foundation and tied it into the lower one at the southeast corner.
the excavation was the prime expense,, the d&g came from the site.
Late last summer i started the stone work,,around august and had to quit mid november due to cold. Then the winter snows came and i began to dig out.
Oh,, yea,, the shop is 20' x 40' and a shed roof with a pitch to match an existing old shed just behind the bandsaw.
anyway,, i dug out the shop and logs and moved the goalpost logs into the center and began to put them together,, my first attempt at a mortis\tenon\cope combination. everything has been done pretty much Egyptian style,,comealongs,block and tackle, a wood platform and 1" pipe for rollers. the first side took me two months,,the second took two weeks,,and i think i could do the whole deal in a two - three week timeframe now. We erected the doorbucks in August,,and i jumped back onto the stonework.
I ran into a time problem,, sheesh,, a very insistent, but patient customer with a job... So my good friend Mark came aboard to do the stack logs. I am finishing the stone during the week, and when he comes up , we are doing the rest of the logwork. He is pictured setting the log on the other page. Pay attention to his notches btw,, and see if you can figure out just what is going on... ;)
we will finish the last front log,, seen on the left with the tripod in place,,and the first fit in the pics on the other page. Then we will put up the "Big Kahuha"!! It is a 50' 24" butt that will sit on top of the goalpost,, then the four main rafters will be notched in with temp notches,, and a large tarp will be put up. I will begin setting up my shop,,and we will have a place out of the weather to do the rest of the logs and iron.
The plan,, is to be operational as a blacksmith shop in a few weeks,,and pretty much finished by the first of the year. truth be known,, once I have my forge,anvil and power hammer set up,, time is not a priority,, but still looking to be pretty done by the first of the year.
The bandsaw is pat. pending 1900 and a machinist friend rebuild it a few years ago. It is a great tool,, has a 48" dia set of wheels and with bit bigger motor and another pulley,, will work for metal or wood into the future,, but now,, it is a metal bandsaw,,and just sweet to work...
When i get my main computer back on line, i will put up some pics of my other tools,, my camelback drill press is the same vintage,,and rebuild by the same man.
I cannot speak high enough of Mark,, just a fine craftsman. We have been working on the design over many cups of coffee,,and a huge amount of BS,,, hehe,, and both of us are really excited over just how it is turning out.
Logs are so cool,, and the details are beginning to emerge,, check out his pic,,and the knots on the vert buck and the log he is setting. I am going to run the stone behind these four knots so they will be visible on the inside of the shop.
This is my first major project where i am combining stone,iron, and log. the iron is not easy to see,, as it gets buried,,but I have hand forged all the "J"bolts and counter sunk square washers as an example. I made all my stone tools,, trowels, and whatever else the others are called,, ;D,, I'm a blacksmith,,not a stonemason!! but i am a toolmaker.
I cannot begin to tell you just how satifsying it is to use these tools on a daily basis,,and see this stonework rise from the ground...
I built a log house a few years ago,, nearly as nice as this,, not quite,, and came up with this design for the log dogs. the design is not fluff and stuff but all very functional. I have used the typical square bar\rebar with welded on legs,,and they are just a pain in the butt!! So this design makes them a joy to work,, the taper from the center,,and the curve make it so a light tap in the center sets the dog,,and creates a spring action to secure the dog in both logs,, one light blow,,and you are done,, tap it sideways,,and it pops loose. no more hit one end,,and the other pops loose,,or hit it in the middle ands both ends go wherever they danged well want!!
I have been saying for the last month,,that i will be done with the stonework in two or three weeks,, still got two or three weeks to go,, and its getting cold!! I have a thermal blanket,,but don't want to put any additives into the mud. so the pressure is definitely on... so back at it tomorrow. today i picked up a couple hundred pounds of quartz,, to highlight the stone here and there on the last corner...
anvil
Anvil - that is a superb looking project. The craftsmanship on those notches is really good. Please keep us posted with pictures and details!
Scott
That is some nice log, iron and stonework.. that's 3 nice materials 8).
This is a shot of what I did where some plumbing came down from a bathroom above.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/lessoffit.jpg)
Don, that's a good idea. I think that I'll copy it...
Scott
scsmith42,,
Thanks,,and I will as progress is made. I am putting in the main breaker today.. progress
Don. aswsome job.. Its nice when the end product looks like it ought to be there,,instead of how it was..
anvil
Quote from: EastMark on October 25, 2007, 02:02:28 PM
Great topic Bob. I am coming up to start to figure some of this too.
I am doing full exposed posts/beams and likely SIPS so it is a wonder to me too. I will likely do my walls with vertical pine first. I had it suggested that the wiring be bundled together and tacked at agreed height to the outside of the posts and they could notch out the foam/single layer osb SIPS to mount over it.
That seems ok but the part I need to start looking at is the hanging lights, ceiling fans, plasma TV, surround sound, etc.
I know there has to be 8 different ways to do it so thanks for starting this thread Bob !!
Mark
Couple of things to keep in mind; NEC states that cables and conductors that are bundled together (more than three current carrying conductors) are subject to derating factors (essentially lowers the load capacity of the individual conductors) and although I've seen it done a million times there are some anal inspectors that will call you on it. The other thing is to be very certain about maintaining the integrity of the cable sheath when routing around corners or thru/under shallow covered chases. If a screw or staple nicks a conductor it could still be electrically conductive but at a reduced ampacity. What this means is that if that wire carry's your lighting load for say a couple of rooms then the damaged area of the conductor (reduced cross section) will be susceptible to over heating. Once it starts to heat it sets off a cycle of heating, increased resistance, more heat, more resistance until it reaches the flash point for the material it is fastened next to (timber frame?) Which is why you never want to make an electrical connection /splice/tap outside of an approved junction or switch box. I have had to trouble shoot numerous old installation that suddenly went dead only to find sloppy make up in a box some where that finally burned thru the wire nut. The j-box contains the failing connection and its escalating heat. Bad wiring practices at the turn of the 20th century is what led insurers to create the NFPA and NEC. They got tired of replacing burned down buildings!
Bman,
Good observation. Something that might save some people out there a lot of trouble or even prevent a fire (the original purpose of the NEC) is trying infrared thermal imaging technology which has become more affordable. It is now very easy after a home (or elecctrical system)is completed to have a thermal scan done of the homes envelope and electrical system. If done from both inside and out with all electrical systems turned on and in use this would help show things like heating connections or nicked wires. I would actually like to see AHJ inspectors perform this examination on homes before a CO is isssued. This would actually be more useful in many cases than a visual inspection. Lot's of things can happen to a wiring system btween the visual RI inspection and the final trim out inspection. Nails, screws pinched wires, abrasions, bad wire nuts etc. as you mentioned. Panel boards should be thermally scanned to show incorrectly sized wires or overloaded circuits, faulty breakers or bad lug terminations. This technology is now being used in commercial electrical maintenance environments to find sources of problems before they actually reach failure and result in outages or fires. We use it here at work with very positive results. We have found bad connections and weak breakers before they actually caused problems. This imaging technology will often show sources of heat loss due to poor sealing, insulation, etc. that can be fixed and reduce the owners utility bill as well. Just an idea.