Question -first face frame cabinet

[Brad_bb]

 I'm building my first Face frame cabinet. I'm actually building a couple of boxes for drawers to go under some benches. I'm kind of learning as I go. The face frame will be flushed to the outside of the cabinet. So I'm planning for the width of the face frame pieces to be 1-3/16 inch wide.  The reason for that thickness is because of the drawer slides. I was going to mount the slides to the inside of the box when I realized the face frame will stick out inside the opening box. That will necessitate spacing the drawer slides out from the inside of the box. The box is 23/32 thick, so if I add a spacer that's 15/32 thick, The drawer slide would then be spaced at 1-3/16 inches.  Does this make sense?  Should the drawer slide be flush with the face frame is what I'm asking?  These are standard full extension slides on the side. I got them at rockler, High Point brand. I started mounting the first slide to the box side when I realized the face frame would interfere. So I need to remove the slide and add the spacer. Thank you.

[btulloh]

Spacer will work. The also make slides that fasten to the inside of the ff and at the back. Not sure if the heavy bb slides are made like that but the do make brackets to use wirh the standard slides. There are standard product solutions for every situation because commercial cabinet making is all about saving time.  For a few cabinets, plane some stock (or use plywood or mdf that's the right thickness) and make some spacers. 

Making the spacer the same width as the slide makes it easier to line things up I've found.

[DWyatt]

I would do exactly what you explain. I typically build the face frames with 1.5" wide material them your spacers can be the same 3/4" plywood that you use for the sides. 

[Brad_bb]

@DWyatt My plywood is 23/32 birch that I got at Lowes.  Maybe the 1/32 wouldn't matter if the slide was low by that much??  I don't know.
I'll make the face frame material from scrap walnut I have lying around, so to make it a custom size isn't any more work.  

Working with plywood is really dis-pleasurable to me.  It's probably primarily from my table saw.  I have a 1953 Delta Unisaw in excellent condition however the fence is very hateful.  It's probably one of the worst fences ever. It's original and it's not broken.  It's just never square to the blade without a lot of measuring and playing with it.  The other problem is that I have no in feet table to support plywood. So using my cross cut sled is usually not possible. There is not enough space between the cross cut the fence in the blade for the plywood to fit without the cross cut coming out of the saw tee slot.  I actually cut the parts using my track saw with 2 inch foam board on top of sawhorses. I cut the top and bottom of the box and they came out square, but then when I cut the sides, they ended up being parallelograms. Opposite sides are parallel to each other but adjacent sides were not square. So I had to use my hateful table saw to try and square up the pieces in one direction. I would lose length in one direction and I decided that would be the depth of the cabinet.  I ended up losing about 3/8 of an inch but still had just barely enough length for the slides.  You should have seen how I was trying to square these things up using a shim on the fence back corner between the fence and  material shaving small amounts trying to get that side Square.

I did manage to get the box together, without the back yet. One thing that really drives me bonkers is for example the center divider is flush on one side of the cabinet but on the opposite side on one side it's proud a strong 1/32 and 1/64 on the other side.  How was the best way to handle this? Whip out my 4X 24 belt sander and make it flush? I don't think I hand plane would work well on plywood.



I have the same problem with the bottom board of the cabinet. In the back on one side it sticks out a 16th of an inch and is almost flush on the other. Belt sander? Or bonfire?

[mapleack]

Brad, did you check square on the plywood sheets before cutting?  You'd think they would be from the factory but they often are not to good tolerance....

[DWyatt]

Brad, if the slides are like the side mounts that I have used before, there are areas to put screws that are like a tab. With side mounts I use those holes and pull the whole slide away from the side of the cabinet, flexing the tabs slightly. Then when you put the drawer box in, it will push the slide the the proper position. 

I hope that makes sense. Basically what I am saying is that the drawer glides have a built in way to account for that 1/32 that you're worried about. 

I switched to undermounts a couple years ago and you couldn't pay me to go back. I know they're more expensive, but they're way simpler to put in and I feel that they are superior slides.

[Brad_bb]

@mapleack I first cut the top and bottom off the sheet(using track saw), and they were square, Then I cut another piece for the sides.  It was supposed to be the two sides of this box and one side for the next box of slightly different size.  I then turned the third piece to cut it into the 3 pieces going the other direction.  I must have screwed up there as none of those three were square.

I don't know of any other way to flush up the back side other than with the belt sander.  I am pretty good with a belt sander.  Waiting to see what ya'll say.

[firefighter ontheside]

I make a lot of face frame cabinets, but I rarely make them with drawers, so when I do I just make some spacers to fill in the gap.  Plywood is terrible these days and not straight or square.  I used to be able to run the factory edge against my table saw fence and be good, but now i have to use my track saw and cut a straight edge first.  I would think the mis-aligned pieces are from that.  Can you make the bad alignment happen in the back instead of the front.  Mistakes can be hidden where no one can see them sometimes.

[YellowHammer]

Here's how I do it.  We used to contract and build high end houses and would do most of them ourselves (thats how we got into sawmilling and secondary processing), and certainly do all the cabinetry, furniture, flooring, etc, so all the woodworking would be high end and custom in them.  Remember, above all else, all cabinets, drawers, bookshelves, stuff like that are just "boxes" and the boxes must be perfectly square for all the hardware and accessories to work.  The good news is, its actually very easy if you build a couple jigs and with them almost impossible to build the boxes off square.

For drawer dividers use slightly overdeep dado grooves so any misalignment gets self adjusted in the groove of the dado.  That way if the divider panels are slightly long or short, it wont matter, they will fit in the groove and the drawer will remain perfectly square.  You don't need to put a dado blade in the table saw, use a panel cutting sled and slide the piece over and take multiple cuts.

I saw your had issues with your sled coming out of the groove, I had my miter groove extension about about a foot longer (proud of the sled) and so would give me extra travel when I ran out of bed room like you describe. I also had mine with the fence or stop on the bottom of the sled (closest side to me) instead of the top (far away side) like usual.  So that would let me cut very big pieces without running out of travel.  I could even use a roller table when the sled extended off the far end of the table saw.  So I cut panels that were much bigger than the sled with the extended groove piece and the fence on the bottom instead of the top.    

I know you said you had one, and certainly for making cabinets, or any 90° panel cut, a table saw panel sled is a "must" and can be built and adjusted so that all panels are square to within zero error, and very easy.  Norm Abrams from the New Yankee Workshop made them famous and I started using them 30 years ago and would not do a panel cut on a table saw without one.  Very easy to build and super accurate.  It also virtually eliminates tearout on plywood.  For final alignment and periodic checking, put a large framing square in the sled and slide it full travel with one corner of one tooth dragging the entire length of travel and it will be perfect.  Use screws on the kicker to make the final adjustments tweaks.  I had two sleds, one about the size of the one pin the video below, and one huge one I made out of plexi and aluminum that would crosscut 4x8 foot sheets of plywood.  I saw your had issues with your sled coming out of the groove, I had my miter groove extension about about a foot longer and so would give me extra travel when I ran out of bed room like you describe.  

Panels being cut perfectly 90° is critical and are the fundamental alignment tool for square cabinets, box frames, drawers, book shelfs, etc.  The panels are used during glue up as the final alignment jig so if the "box" or frame matches the square panels, the boxes will be perfectly square.  So during glue up, while the 4 sided box it is still flexible, fitting it to a perfectly square bottom panel will pull it into perfect square, tack with a brad nailer on the bottom and then the glue will dry and lock it in.  Never attach a bottom or back to the box after the glue has dried on the side joints because you'll have to "crack" the glue joints to square it up .  Generally, I would cut a groove or dado in the bottom of each side piece and simply slide the bottom panel it, and it will force the box sides to square up as it goes in.  

If you are going to use a track saw, just use it to "rough" the square panel oversize, do the final cut on the table saw sled, unless the panels get too big.  Once you make a panel sled, it is virtually impossible to not make perfectly square or length cuts.  Generally, a panel sled is even more accurate than a basic chop saw, and since the end of the panel jig was cut by the table saw blade as a the last step, it's impossible to miscut length wise as the end of the jig is where the blade cut will be.  Exactly.  

Here is one of many video on a panel cutting sled, I like it because it mentions the New Yankee Workshop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSMLPQ3GNXg

[Tom K]

As already mentioned, either a spacer or a rear mount bracket.

I also typically do 1 1/2" uprights for the face frame, but I never go flush with the box. I always hang the frame 1/8" past the box. I do this for a few reasons.#1, I think the reveal is a nicer look then flush. #2, any differential movement between the box and the frame will not be as visible. #3, It also helps keep the face frames tight if the wall isn't perfect.

As for you width issue, your on the right path with the belt sander. I have ran pieces through the jointer though and it does work if you take a light pass and the blades are sharp. I don't always do backs and if I do it's always 1/4". I always put 1x4 nailers top & bottom. Depending on the look I'm going for the back may be rabbeted into the sides with the nailers exposed, or the nailers may be flush with the back of the boxes with the ply in front.

I also like to do larger sections of cabinets to reduce the number of cabinets to attach together in the field. I have made 8-10' long cabinets sections in one piece. When I do that I try to flush up the side of the intermediate box frame with the inside of the face frame at the drawer sections as much as I can to eliminate as much shimming of the slide as I can.

[21incher]

I added a simple piece of plastic to the front of my saw for cutting cabinet size panels. Here's an old video. Helps support the miter gauge.
Miter Gauge Support For My Grizzly G1023WRLX Saw Using A Kreg Miter Gauge - YouTube

I also like to protect the slides if I can by burying them in the drawer slidees. Keeps crap out.
Building Pull Out Cabinet Shelves - YouTube

[Brad_bb]

At least I did something right - went to the right source for advice.  As presidents who are about to lie to you say, "Let me be clear", I do not have a panel sled.  I was referring to a mitre gauge with a small board fastened to it as a fence.  That is what I have that is too short to allow any panel cutting (comes out of the groove if you try to put something too wide in).  I'll be making that Norm sled first thing.  I'll have to look into other sleds too.  The only sleds I have is a box joint sled I made, and a sled for cutting facets (points) on dry pegs.  It's not practical to draw knife points on dry white oak pegs.  Best to use table saw to cut 4 facets for bulk material removal, then finish with draw knife so it looks hand done.

Thanks for the ideas and advice.  I really need a good Beisemeyer fence too.  A table extension wouldn't hurt either.