Glyphosate use

[maple man]

I was cutting some beech today and noticed that they still seem very wet despite all leaves being down for several weeks. Beech in this area are not healthy and I have been poisoning stumps to allow oaks and maples to take over the space. Can stump treatment or hack and squirt glyphosate application be effective even during the dormant season? How about after freeze up?
Thanks.

[luvmexfood]

Don't have the specific brands right now but I would use something that was listed as a brush killer. Take a paint brush and paint the top of the stump with the brush killer. If it is a concentrate I would use full strength.

[petefrom bearswamp]

this stuff is roundup by any other name.
My son a state forester says they have the best luck with hack and squirt in JUly.

[John Mc]

I haven't done much Beech stump treatment, but I have treated a lot of Buckthorn stumps with glyphosate. I use a generic brand, since it's much cheaper than RoundUp, and just as effective. I did some experimenting with various concentrations. Started with the hardware store's strongest: 18% concentration. It killed some, but was not all that effective. Now I never use anything less than 25% for stump treatment. That seems to get the strong majority of the stumps. I often use 41% concentrate right out of the container. Some times I dilute it down to 30-35%, but often I don't bother.

I've found July August and September to be the most effective on Buckthorn for me. I can often get away with pushing it into late October, but that is because Buckthorn holds its leaves (and they stay green) much later than other species. Spring is not all that effective (I'm guessing it's because it doesn't take the glyphosate down into the roots - the tree is more focused on pushing nutrients up). What it boils down to is that you want to get it during the growing season. After the leaves have started to turn, stump cut treatments will be much less effective. (I don't have hard data to back this up, but my gut feeling is that treating well before the leaves start to turn is better than just before.)

A couple of cut stump tips:

• You don't need to cover the whole stump, a ring around the outer edge will get the "active" wood and transport the glyphosate to the roots. (though it's generally easier on smaller saplings just to hit the whole thing)
• Adding a bit of food coloring or other dye to the herbicide makes it easier to tell which stumps you've already treated.

I believe there are other herbicides that are a better choice for wintertime treatment - maybe Garlon 4? I've seen people do basal bark treatments with that in the winter time with good results (a combination of Garlon 4 and Diesel fuel). The trees sprouted in the spring, but then died off. Most of these were smaller trees: up to 4" - 6" Buckthorn or less. Maybe it will work on larger trees as well - especially a thin-barked tree like Beech? (I've never used it myself, since Vermont requites a commercial pesticide applicators license to buy anything other than Glyphosate.)

I have no experience with hack & squirt. I know it's effective when done right, but don't know what seasons are the best to do it.

[BradMarks]

John Mc nailed it pretty good. My observations locally:  Hack and squirt out west is done usually late summer(Aug) into late fall (end Nov), when the sap is going back down. This gets the chemical to the roots.  If trees are dormant the chemical just "sits".  Not sure on a cut stump if an application during dormancy would be effective when the growing season begins.  Anyone had success doing this?  The Garlon mixed with diesel for basal treatment isn't as popular as it used to be, mainly because of the diesel!  And I do find it interesting that glyphosate (Roundup) is the main chemical used. Out here it would be amazypir (Arsenal) when doable, knowing that the amazypir translocates more so than other chemicals.

[John Mc]

Bradmarks -

One reason glyphosate is so popular here in Vermont by is that it is just about the only thing you can apply yourself as a landowner without a commercial applicator license.

Another is that for many years, the information was that RoundUp/glyphosate is for the most part benign to mammals and that it broke down quite readily once in contact with the soil. There are claims out now that neither of those statements may be true. (Not sure what to believe, but I can say I've been being a whole lot more careful of how I handle it and how I treat clothing that got some spilled on it.)

There are also a whole lot of Vermonters who are VERY anti-herbicide/pesticide. (I tend to avoid the chemical route myself, but dealing with well-established buckthorn through purely mechanical means is a losing battle.)

[Claybraker]

I've never had much luck with Glyphosate on hack and squirt any time of the year, but when I switched to stuff that's a little hotter, Tordon or Imazapyr,  my success improved dramatically. My favorite tool these days is a cordless drill with a 3/8" bit to make a cavity just the right size for the prescribed amount of herbicide, and the proper number of cavities per DBH. I don't drill too deep, just under the bark and then lift up the back of the drill motor to sorta wallow out a cavity the right volume just under the bark. Never found a hatchet that was calibrated to provide a place to hold 1 ml of herbicide per hack.

[BradMarks]

JohnMc:  Now I understand the widespread use of Glyphosphate! 
Claybreaker:  Interesting your technique, and it sounds like it works well.  There are methods to insure a 1ml or 2ml application of herbicide with hack and squirt.  When hacking with a hatchet or machete, when deep enough, creates a frill where the herbicide can "lay" in there.  Many contractors out here will use a calibrated veterinary syringe connected to a small (2.5 liter) backpack and put the chemical in the frill.  Not it's intended use, and with harsh chemicals, they wear out fairly frequently, but it is a regulated dosage. Plus side is it is quick and cost effective, and time equals money in that regard.

[Larry]

I've used 41% glyphosphate for hack and squirt during the growing season with good success.  I don't use much as the growing season here = ticks, chiggers, and snakes.

RTU Tordon works well year round and Tractor Supply carries it locally, so easy to get.  I use a couple of quarts every winter.

[John Mc]

RTU Tordon works well year round and Tractor Supply carries it locally, so easy to get.  I use a couple of quarts every winter.

Wish I could get that here.

[thecfarm]

John,can't get Tordon due to state regulations?

[chet]

John , this is where I get some of the products I've used. They have competitive prices, and smaller amounts can be purchased for them special projects. http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/herbicides-c-59_188.html?page=1
They also have the labels for each of their products so you see if it is permitted in your state, and if the product will give the results your after.

[John Mc]

John,can't get Tordon due to state regulations?

Yep. Commercial applicators license required for anything other than Glyphosate in VT (and glyphosate can only be applied on your own land if you don't have a license... no helping a neighbor). I believe one exception is if you are working under the supervision of a licensed applicator. You can get some low-strength stuff at some hardware stores (something that is mostly glyphosate, but has trace amounts of other stuff in it).

[petefrom bearswamp]

Pretty much the same regs here in NY as John's experience. My main problem is Beech

[pine]

JohnMc:  Now I understand the widespread use of Glyphosphate! 
Claybreaker:  Interesting your technique, and it sounds like it works well.  There are methods to insure a 1ml or 2ml application of herbicide with hack and squirt.  When hacking with a hatchet or machete, when deep enough, creates a frill where the herbicide can "lay" in there.  Many contractors out here will use a calibrated veterinary syringe connected to a small (2.5 liter) backpack and put the chemical in the frill.  Not it's intended use, and with harsh chemicals, they wear out fairly frequently, but it is a regulated dosage. Plus side is it is quick and cost effective, and time equals money in that regard.

I have used the described veterinary syringe equipment and it works very well. Hack and Squirt Syringe ;)
Clean up the syringe very well after use or you do have failures as described.

I understand the VT Law is a problem/issue but for those that have an option I have found that Triclopyr ester works very well.  Have used it full strength cut with diesel and also with LI-100 as a surfactant.

[John Mc]

... I understand the VT Law is a problem/issue but for those that have an option I have found that Triclopyr ester works very well.  Have used it full strength cut with diesel and also with LI-100 as a surfactant.

If Triclopyr is the active ingredient in Garlon 4, then I've seen it used very effectively. I saw a basal bark treatment done on Buckthorn that ranged from 1" to about 6" diameter. Treatment was done during the winter. In the spring, most of them sprouted, but then died off.

[Claybraker]

Yep, Garlon 4 is the ester (oil soluble) and Garlon 3 is the amine (water soluble)  formulation of Triclopyr.  I've used Garlon 4 with diesel for basal spraying, and it's quite effective. it's my favorite tool for poison ivy vines and wild grape vines. I've read some studies that found Garlon 3 is more effective than Garlon 4 in cut surface treatments, but I personally don't have any experience using either one for cut surface. (hack and squirt)  The only reason I mention that, is the amine formulation might be more available in "brush-killer" labeled products.

[Magicman]

Just as information:  LINK  and another: LINK

The reason that I was researching "Roundup" is because in recent years I have been using it to kill weeds/grasses before I plant wheat/oats in my deer food plots.  I know that in past years my plots were ankle deep+ throughout the deer season.  The past few nears, not so much.  I looked back through my records and the only thing that has changes was when I started spraying Roundup to "improve" my crop.  Could it be that this "improvement" backfired and has lead to a demise of my planted crop?  I know that I will not be spraying next year.

[John Mc]

Roundup is not supposed to have any carry-over. It's not even supposed to effect seeds that have not yet sprouted. (On the other hand, they have claimed for year that it is relatively benign for mammals, and there is now some evidence that that may not be the case.)

There are also some varieties of Roundup sold in hardware stores that also have other herbicides in them besides glyphosate that may have carry over or other effects.

[WDH]

I hack-n-squirt with Tordon 101 M.  Have to be careful as it is soil active, so keep it only on the target tree.  I use a short machete and a spray squirt bottle like the one that the Formula 109 cleaner comes in. 

[JB Husky]

The following was plagiarized from an Iowa State University publication. It suggests treatment within 2-3 hours at most but recommended 15-30 minutes after cutting.

Glyphosate "Roundup" has been shown to be equally effective in cut stump, frill, and hatchet injections by varying the concentration. A 50/50 mix of Glyphosate/water is highly effective from August- November and from November –February a 75/25 roundup /water and even a 100% glyphosate spray will control trees.

[John Mc]

JB Husky - That's interesting. I've never seen anyone do a winter treatment with glyphosate.

I've also never seen anything higher than a 50 or 51% concentration sold around here (maybe I should talk to a farmer in the neighborhood?) I also thought that glyphosate needed to be mixed with a surfactant to be effective (which I believe is already n the RoundUp and other generic brands), so I'm not sure what a 100% glyphosate solution would do. Perhaps the surfactant is not necessary on cut stump, frill, and hatchet injection treatments?

If I can find some higher concentration, I'll have to try it.

[luvmexfood]

Check at Lowe's. They have Round Up in two maybe three different concentrations.

[John Mc]

Check at Lowe's. They have Round Up in two maybe three different concentrations.

I'll take another look there. Last time I looked at Lowe's, Home Depot, and TSC, was several years ago. The highest I saw then was 50.2%.

[JB Husky]

I took it as 100% glyphosate and no water (they mention a 50/50 and a 75/25 mix) and I would use a surfactant if it was me. I can't attest to the effectiveness of winter applications, or glyphosate applications for that matter, because I'm allowed to use Pathway and Garlon 😎