I'm not worthy....

[LSUNo1]

But I'm gonna go ahead and post anyway. I've been soaking up ya'lls knowledge in stealth mode for several months now  and hate to think about the money it would cost to buy what I have learned.  

I have a manual mill and have cut about 1000 LBF to date from about 9 logs. Done one small paying job and from that job have lined up about 6 mos. worth of weekends cutting cypress. If it ever stops raining here for longer than a day or two have a few other jobs I could do. I've had my mill for about 3 months and shamefully made my decision based on pictures and videos.

Because of the onslaught of work and the calories burned operating the manual alone, I checked out first hand a used orange 40HD machine.... and NOW I understand >:(. Same as I understand my chevy is made for driving but....so is a BMW. Anyway here's where I show my %&#...

1. Is it common for a six year old orange machine to sell for only a grand less than new? Its in good shape and has supposedly just been serviced by the "man from Atlanta" but geez...

2. How often do you folks adjust your roller guides. According to the company supplied "blade alignment tool" my machine has required adjustment about once every two logs. They are adustable with 4 set screws and jam nuts. Its got to be me.

3. Anybody ever cut with a third party in the picture? This guy knows the guy with all the cypress logs. Says WE can cut it for halfs ???. May not be the ideal situation but beats sitting home. He'll help but I dont think he'll help enough to get half of my half. Any rules of thumb?

4. Any of you guys ever think about making an instructional video on sawing techniques, tips, tricks with portable mills. All the ones I've seen are only to sell the saw.  
  
Thanks in advance for any help, and thanks for all the good info. you all have shared so far.
  

[biziedizie]

  When I was looking at mills I found that anything used was not much cheaper then buying new. Most mills hold their value and I think the reason that the prices are kept high is because most guys buy mills with high expectations to be sawing all the time and when they find out how much hard work it takes the mill ends up sitting under a tarp. People figure that the mill is still new so they want big bucks.
  Also me thinks that any good mill that is serviced over it's lifetime should still get big bucks as there's not alot that can wear them out.
  I think that the orange mill along with most mills will have bugs in them when new and maybe a used one would be a good choice as the bugs will have been dealt with.
  I have a manual mill and I have it on the farm and it's set up with a log deck and as far as it working me hard it doesn't. I have it so the logs nearly roll themselves on to the mill and the only thing I have to do is turn it which doesn't require any efort with a cant hook.
  If I was portable there would be no way I would do it with a manual mill as the effort to get things set up and the log on the mill would be a job. But then again if I did it as a side thing I would think about it.
  If I was to go full time sawing I would get a mill with all the bells and whistles as that would be the way to go.
  Would I fork out 40 grand to do this??? I doubt it unless I knew that I could work the mill full time and knew that I had a huge amount of lumber to saw over the years.
  I'd say go for it if the gamble is right for you and you can afford it but as you've only owned a mill for a few months I would say hold off for awhile till you could see how much and how long the work is out there for you.
  I've been in business for many years now and there's one thing I've learned and that's be patient and really think things through before you take a chance that could break you.
  Hope that helps!

   Steve

[Tom]

It is common for the mills from the larger companies to command close to their original retail value. That is if the machine is in perfect condition.  Age and some wear may take a bit of the price off but not much. Most of the machines can be put back into almost new condition just by replacing some pertinent parts.

I have an LT40 that sold new with trailer package, sharpener and setter in 1990 for $16,800.  After 8 years it would still command $12000 and now, after 12 years of hard work and sitting idle for a year it would get $6-8 Thousand, I'm sure.  It needs a fabricator rather than parts now because of the erosion of some of the metals and the wear of parts like the handle, engine swivels, blade guide mounts and things like that.  Sell it?  Nope.  One day it will saw for me again.

-----------------
I would adjust my roller guides maybe once a week or less.  I check them every day before sawing to make sure they haven't become loose.

I have stationary guides on my other saw and adjust them every time I change blades and check them for clearance two or three times a day over and above that.  Usually they don't require any attention but you have to make sure.

--------------------
Everybody wants a piece of the action without committing any responsibility for dollars and equipment.

If it were necessary to have a middle man and he was going to work, then I would come up with a "piece-work" salary like 3 or 5 cents a board foot.

even if you were going to work on shares, you deserve a share and your sawmill deserves at least a share.  You shouldn't bring anyone in for more than a third unless he also is a partner in hardware.  I don't won't anyone as a partner in my hardware.

--------------------------------

I've thought about an instructional video and a book too. But, when I start thinking about what to put in it, I realize that I don't know enough.  There is so much to learn and you learn everyday.  Every log is different.  Most saws are different.  About the only thing that would be common would be what you are trying to get out of a log.

The best book is the Forum.  It is real time.

The Business end of it is simple.  You just try to provide the best service and the best lumber you can at a decent price and treat your customer like he is family. Don't show your temper and, like a politician, spend time with the kids.

[DanG]

Worthy? ???  You got your own mill, and you're sawing lumber. How "worthy" can you get??

I can't answer all your questions, but the orange gizmo sounds a bit pricey, by the info you're giving. Shop around a bit, and take your time. If the best you can find is only a grand under new, buy new.  Don't forget, WM isn't the only game in town. They make a fine machine, no doubt, but some of the others are good too.
I'd be surprised if you ever saw any of that Cypress. I've had a boatload of that kind of deal talked up to me, and they never seem to work out, for some reason. If it does happen to happen, follow your own instincts concerning the split, and don't look back.  You need something for your time and effort, but you also need the experience. Only you can determine the balance of these things. Whatever you decide will be ok.

[Jason_WI]

With a manual mill there are things you can do to save you time and your back. If your mill is set up stationary then set up some sort of log deck. I have 2 white cedar logs that are the perfect hight of my mill that I use for my log deck. I also raised my mill about 8 inches off of the ground. Keeps you from bending down so much. Get a small tractor loader or skidsteer for those large logs and use that to load your log deck.

You can also use a winch to roll the logs up a ramp and onto the mill. The winch can be used to turn the cant also.

I was tired of edging on the mill. I bought an edger and it saves time by not having to sort through the flitch pile and restacking on the mill.  What a PIA that was and I always ended up pinching my fingers flipping boards. Also saves time when sawing dimensional lumber for framing.

Modifications to your mill can also save time. I added auto water shutoff, toeboard, and modified my dogs which all saved time and headaches. I also have a sawdust blower on my manual mill so I don't have to shovel sawdust at the end of the day.

If you are looking for a used mill try:

 www.sawmillexchange.com

So what mill do you have currently??

Jason

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm not sure about the smaller mills, but for us commercial guys, the rule-of-thumb is that if a piece of equipment can pay for itself in 2 years, its a good buy.  I don't see why your economics should expect anything less.

When you do your figuring, do not put your time as worth zero.  Your time is of value, even if its just a hobby.  

[Bibbyman]

#1 - Do you mean $1000 less than this mills sold for when new or ..... $1000 less than a 2003 model with the same features?  Quite a bit of difference.  There have been a lot of nice upgrades on the LT40 series over the past 6 years but for most people,  they are functionally equal.  There have been times when used Wood-Mizers sold for more than their new cost.  Even well used ones brought nearly when new prices.  With the inflation rate down to near 0 the past few year,  this may not be so.  

We sold our 96 model LT40 Super and recovered 90% of what we paid for it. A few months later sold our 94 model LT40 manual mill with twice the hours on it and recovered nearly %80 of the original price.  This was the fall after 911 so I suspect we could have done better.  I hoped to make money on the 96 and break even on the 94.

#2 - I used the blade alignment tool a couple of times on our first mill - an 94 LT40 manual.  For sure when I changed guide rollers.  We've run our 2002 model LT40 Super over a year and half and over 800 hours and not got the tool out of the box.  As long as there is no looseness in the guide mounting and as long as it's still cutting superbly,  I see no reason to check the blade.  Just me.

#3 - Third parties.  We've done some of that but usually when we know all the parties involved and know who's going to pay.  We've got a couple of guys that are 'artistes' at making deals where they come out of the deal ahead without bringing anything to the party.  We know these guys and avoid getting involved with them.  It's a mess.  

We backed into one of those deals and in the middle of it now.  ---- Last year a farmer up the road asked us to log off a small section of his farm.  Told him we ran a sawmill and would buy his logs but we wouldn't do the logging.  He got a part time logger cut his logs and bunch them.  The logger sold some to other places.  Farmer does not know what the logger got for what he sold and has not been paid.  Farmer gets with logger and by hook and crook,  manage to haul the bunched logs to our lot.  But now the farmer and logger want us to saw them on shares - but they don't know what they want and are not ready for the lumber. Then later, farmer brings a buddy by that is building something and needs some lumber.  We go through the log inventory and there are no logs long enough to make what he needs.  In order to load and move them,  the logger had cut the longer ones in two or three logs.   The farmer goes back to his patch of woods and finds the logger had not skidded out about 20 logs.  Then the logger shows up and needs some lumber so we saw out a couple hundred bf and call him.  It's been setting out there for a couple of months waiting for him to come and get it.  So now we've got something like 5,000 bf of logs setting on our lot without clear ownership and nobody wanting to pay us for sawing them up.  I think the next time we have a logger come in with a knuckle-boom loader,  I'll pay him to haul them back to the farm where they came from.

#4 - A video would be nice.  You'd have to keep it somewhat generic, as there are a lot of ways to approach sawing depending on log and product.  Our Department of Conservation has a library of videos on all aspects of forestry including sawing, drying and lumber grading.  Maybe yours does too. One great place to collect experience is to attend the Wood-Mizer field days event in your area.  You can watch how the WM guys run the mills and talk with a bunch of other guys.  We've been to a good many and always learn something.

[Russ]

I like the idear of a sawing vidio. I went to a logging show after having my mill for a year and it I learned more than I did at the show I picked the mill up at. Like somebody just posted your always on a learning curve.The more you know the more you'll learn. Also if everybody's mill is like mine it took about a year and $1000. to work the bugs out of it even though it was new, I feel it's worth close to what it cost new. I'm glad I didn't get a big sawmill after finding out all the competition there is out there, but I still cann't help drooling when I see one in action.

Rusty's Band Sawmill

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[LSUNo1]

Gentlemen, thanks for the replies. As expected alot of good advice. Sorry for the dead air until now. Got a little side tracked with the birth of my son a few weeks ago. I have two 4 year olds also and they have been my "second job" since while the wife gets back on her feet. I need a few 10 hour days milling to get some rest

Jason, I have an Accutrac MP-32 from Cook Saw. It is a good machine for the money. I have a winch and ramps for loading logs onto the mill, but it is slow. Not a problem so far but if I get a big job it will kill production. I am going to stick with it until the big jobs actually materialize though.

Bibby, the owner of the 96 model LT40HD24 with 1500 hours wanted $22K. Best I can tell from WM literature a new one today would be in the $23K range. I've seen comparble machines for a good bit less on Sawmill Exchange and other places. Are you still holding the 5000 lbf on your property?

Well its late and me and the twins are going to meet third party to check out the cypress logs tomorrow. Got to start em young ;D. I'm excited, there is opportunity here in my area. There are a few mills around but none interested in sawing for others, and I for the most part I only want to saw for others.

Thanks again for the help.  

  

[LSUNo1]

I almost forgot, GO LSU TIGERS!!! 17-10. Any of you Georgia football fans will know what thats about.

[SteveS]

Congratulations on the new littlen'  

[Oregon_Sawyer]

I just sold my 96LT40HD36G with 1900 hrs for 16,000.  I was happy and the new owner is very happy.  I included over 70 blades with it as they would not fit my LT70.

[LSUNo1]

That sounds more like it....So how long you gonna hang on to the 70...?

[isawlogs]

 When I first started to look into buing a mill I was forwarded to (FERIC) www.feric.ca/en/index.htm

Title:  Handbook on portable bandsaw-type sawmills
 Author:  Folkema, MP
 Keywords:  SAWMILLS, PORTABLE SAWMILLS, BANDSAWS, LUMBER, BUSINESS ENTERPRISES, CASE STUDIES, PRODUCTIVITY, COSTS, MANUFACTURERS, EASTERN CANADA
 Year:  1992
 Reference:  HB-000010
 City:  Pointe Claire, QUE
 Price:  $50.00
 Number of pages:  65 p
 Accession number:  16251
 
Abstract:  This handbook is intended as a guide for entrepreneurs who wish to generate income for themselves by sawing lumber and other products using portable bandsaw-type sawmills, either on a part-time or full-time basis. The handbook is based on a series of case studies of successful sawmill operators located throughout eastern Canada. This approach permittted FERIC staff to study a variety of equipment and operating techniques and to make recommendations on how to improve sawing efficiency and reduce costs. The study also determined that since 1982, when the first portable bandsaw mills were introduced, there have been many design improvements made by the manufacturers which have resulted in higher productivity, greater mechanical reliability and lower operating costs.
 
I found this manual to be very informative and descripted what I wanted to do, when I got it there was a video that went with it I'll look into it if I can't dig it up .... Just might be in french I know that my manual is ....



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[Oregon_Sawyer]

LSUNo1:  I kept the first mill for five years.  So give me a call in 2008. ;D

If everthing i am working towards works out I will upgrade before that.  But it will be quite a while before I know.

[Bibbyman]

I hadn't opened this thread for awhile.

We finally go "closure" on the third-party logs on our lot.  The land owner sold the logs to Mary with the understanding that the he and the logger have settled.

[ARKANSAWYER]

LSUNo.1   How about them Hawgs??  OOOOHHHHH! PIGS!
   It would take many videos to show some sawing of the many aspects of sawing.  You could come up for a week or two of ARKY 101 Sawing School and really get your feet wet. ;D  Here is the best place to learn and most of the time we post pictures to help the slow like FLDeadhead.
   We all get into deals that we knew better then to but it keeps life interesting.
  If just a grand differ then dig deeper in the purse and get the extra coin.   "Wanda" will reach 1 million bdft next year and will need a tune up and oil change.  Them Orange mills are tuff as a Hawg.   If you are going to get serious about milling then hydralics are the only way to go.
  You are starting them kids off right and best of luck with the new one.
ARKANSAWYER

[LSUNo1]

Arkansawyer, hope your Hogs beat the dog out of Bama this weekend!

If the Tigers were playing in Fayetteville or Little Rock this year I'd take you up on the offer of personal instruction.

You've already helped me out a bit. I emailed  the article you posted a few weeks back to some folks at a local municipality that is clearing some land for a park. They're thinking on salvaging some of the trees for park furniture, footbridges etc. Not sure how they gonna get around public bid laws to give me the work. May have to sub to the engineer who already has a contract for park design. Can I ask what your arrangement was on your project?

If you get a wild hair and end up in Baton Rouge for the butt whippin the Tigers are gonna put on them dang Hogs, let me know. You'd be just a hop skip from New Orleans and in exchange for a little tutoring I might be able to talk the wife into lettin me show you a little bit of Bourbon Street .

[breederman]

Four year old twins!  Too cool! I have a set of twin girls. Enjoy them now. It was so much fun when they were little.Now that they are seventeen,  some days I wish they were four again! I did'nt seem so stupid then and they could'nt gang up on me! :

[ARKANSAWYER]

   I do not get out much and most of the time not allowed to leave far from home.  I have a deal for stirring folks up. ;D  I make Noble nervous just getting coffee in town with him.
  Any time you find your way up to God's Country by all means stop in.
   When the director of the Parks settled on me she just wrote the bid restraints so that I fit the requirements.  Like portable, so much experiance, and so forth.  They had money to clear, chip, log, and build the stuff, but seemed to get hung up on sawing the logs.  It took a year to get this deal done.
  You can get money and help to plan, plant, carefor, doctor, prune, and even remove urban timber here but not any one will help you saw it up and use it.  Keep working as we may get them to change their minds.
ARKANSAWYER

[ARKANSAWYER]

   DID YOU SEE WHAT THEM HAWGS DID IN SO LITTLE TIME?   MAN THAT WAS PLAYING HAWG BALL.
ARKANSAWYER

[LSUNo1]

I saw some of that one. That Cobb is a load! . Not looking forward to having to stop him.

Going to meet the engineer at the park site next week. They are thinking of doing an article touting the recycling of the trees to be removed...wonder where they got that idea ;).