We have 50 acres of mostly pine. I had a forester from a mill tell me they are paying $3 to $4 a ton for pulpwood. They cut and haul. We thought this was pretty low but really don't know. We live in Pennsylvania. I would appreciate advise on this from those of you that understand this business. Should I ask for more money or accept 3 or $4 a ton?
Thank you
Thats about average. If you want look at the PA DCNR timber sales page. Find a sale in your area and look at what they give for a value of the hardwood pulp. Even the bureau, which has some super nice timber, only values the pulp at a couple bucks a ton. With only limited numbers of buyers in a state as big as PA its hard to get much for it, and softwood is even tougher to move as most of the pulp and fiber-board mills run a much higher percentage of hardwood pulp to softwood pulp.
Where at in pa? I have thousands of tons in pa standing because the papermill won't take it
Spring Grove
I pay $3.50 so I'd say they are right on the money.
Quote from: CALJREICH on March 11, 2014, 06:11:58 PM
We have 50 acres of mostly pine. I had a forester from a mill tell me they are paying $3 to $4 a ton for pulpwood. They cut and haul. We thought this was pretty low but really don't know. We live in Pennsylvania. I would appreciate advise on this from those of you that understand this business. Should I ask for more money or accept 3 or $4 a ton?
Thank you
Could someone explain "pulpwood" to me?
Quote from: POC on March 12, 2014, 01:40:30 AM
Could someone explain "pulpwood" to me?
Logs destined to be munched up into wood pulp for paper / cardboard. Usually logs that are too small for saw logs, or undesirable species. It's the lowest value logs. Locally it's more of a "byproduct", where any decent tree is going to make 3 or 4 good saw logs, and a top log that goes as pulpwood.
Ian
We have lots of "byproduct" standing on the stump up here due to past harvesting and basically very little spacing/weeding silviculture in pole stage and bigger and low value species like aspen and red maple. But we get 3 to 4 times that (the $3 ton quoted) for stumpage. Not to hard to find that a whole 100 acre lot of wood ends up at the pulp mill. Some lots the log volume is so low that they don't bother chasing pennies. It costs to sort and buck and make additional space for logs and mostly the price isn't paying for it, thus the reason. That and many don't educate themselves on how to buck properly for the market. I saw this working for the marketing board, logs pushed up in piles and all lengths under the sun, plus the sweep and defect. ;)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on March 12, 2014, 04:51:15 AM
But we get 3 to 4 times that (the $3 ton quoted) for stumpage.
Not to be too picky SD but the OP was talking about PINE pulp. I don't think any contractors in NB are paying $9-12 ton for pine pulp unless they have some markets I haven't heard of. $3/ton is too much considering we can only get about $26/ton delivered and the mill is 30+ miles from home.
We are paying $5/cord for pine pulp which works out to $2.32/ton, $10/cord on hardwood and hemlock pulp which is just under $4/ton.
Ken you are right, I sometimes loose focus a bit. Although the topic of the thread never separated species, just pulp. ;D I don't think we could get rid of pine pulp up here. But then again any pine I've seen cut that was low value in recent years was red pine going to Fort Fairfield, Maine for electric generation. About 40 minute drive from here. They were paying $29/ton I think the last I heard. So $5-8/ton is probably ball park stumpage. However, we typically get 20-30% of delivered price historically in this area. I know one contractor here had been cutting down 20 year old red pine plantations. I don't know why folks would do it, except for money, and it's not much. I've talked to Crabbe one time about what was going on and they said it's not very smart forest management. And Crabbe has a lot of red pine plantations. They said they won't be doing this in their pine. I mean, it's just peanuts to the landowner because a woodlot owner only has small acreage. It's most always on land that was very marginal for farming. Anyway rambling a bit again beyond the intend of the thread. ;D
Thank you to everyone for replying. Very informative and I think I will feel good if I get $4 a ton. I will let you know what I end up getting. It is just junk trees anyway and the forester told me getting most of them off will allow the hardwood that is small and growing to take over.
So maybe in 80 years it will be valuable timber.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on March 12, 2014, 04:51:15 AM
But we get 3 to 4 times that (the $3 ton quoted) for stumpage.
Could you explain "stumpage"? :-\
Stumpage is the monetary return to the landowner after harvesting trees. Usually a percentage of the total value of the harvested product.
Stumpage is the value of the standing tree, basically what the land owner receives.
Then you have the cost of harvesting and trucking, which all adds up to what the mill pays for the logs delivered.
With low grade pulp logs the harvesting and trucking are usually a large portion of the value, so not much left for the land owner.
But in OP's case, it sounds like they are getting some useful Improvement to their forest, AND actually receiving some payment for it. That sure beats having to PAY to have junk trees removed.
Ian
Yes, it sure is. And when you can get a landowner to see value in just removing that junk to help their woods, it's even better. A lot are just looking at the $$ and not the results. ;)
And POC $4 does not sound like much,it's not. The owner does not make much money on pulp. But the land owners trees will make money. Meaning what is left will grow better, As long as the removal of the pulp wood was done to help out the forest.
My brothers chip mill in Arkansas is getting 70.00$ a ton delivered on hardwood chips right now.
Up from a high of 62.00$ a ton delivered from last year.
That's not for pulp though. Actually I am not sure what the buyer uses it for.
His softwood chips go to OSB production.
$20-$30/ton for first thinning red pine pulp in northern WI. Third thinning going for $40/ton. I guess it all has to do with the local markets. We have a few large pulp mills that use pine and a sawmill that uses the log material for making treated lumber.
Oldmil
That's a new one, pulp is one price here at the same mill, but price varies by mill and we have some mills paying for truck zoning. Nothing to do with age. And whose going to keep track of timing of harvest whether the wood was from 1st or 3rd thinning? Would have to be all company land. :D
Talked to brother this morning. The hardwood chips DO go for pulp. It gets used for an expensive paper
manufactured for high gloss photo printing.
It all has to do with the size of the wood. First thinning (in N. Wis) is 6-8" dbh. 3rd thinning is 12-18" dbh. First thinning goes strictly to the pulp mill. Third thinning goes to the sawmill and some to pulp. Big difference in price between 1st and 3rd around here.
Oldmil
Your talking about two different products, two different mills. Around here the idea for red pine is utility poles. It obvious to me size is the factor, not thinning regime. There is no way to track it with confidence unless it is company or public land. I think 1st, 2nd, 3rd thinning is an industry term that must be on some management plan or certification scheme so they can say this wood is sustainable because it's from thinnings. If off woodlots, you could never get that kind of organization or commitment from the majority. So when they get private wood, they can mix it in with their own and give it a tag name, wood from 1st, 2nd, 3rd thinning.
Yes, this is public forest so there are records of the number of times the stands have been thinned. We regularly refer to a thinning by which entry it is (1st, 2nd, 3rd). I guess I could classify it by dbh or age. Regardless, pine pulp harvests (<8"dbh typically) go for around $20+/ton around here. We currently have a sale which is part 3rd thinning (12"-16" dbh) and part first thinning (<8") that sold for $40/ton.
Oldmil
I imagine they are probably using those plantation density management diagrams things, where entries/thinnings are based on average stand diameter or something like that.
Would all this underbrush be considered pulpwood?
POC thank you for asking those questions. I'm new to this stuff as well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35883/Picture_009%7E0.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35883/Picture_007%7E0.jpg)
Possibly if there are any min. 4" diameter trees, and not shrub species. Trees have to be debarked and there is a minimum size that is required to get the job done. Pulp chips have to be clean of bark.
Here at Verso,in Jay,ME I don't know if they use chips for making paper or not. In Jay,they will take pulp down to 3-4 inches. I don't really know the lengths any more. I do know 8 foot white pine. Than there is a place in Farmington that takes hardwood,I think 20 foot lengths. Than that is shipped to Rumford. None of the pulp wood is debarked at the landowners lot before being trucked.
Yeah, 4" is breast height diameter. That was always the minimum when cruising timber up here. If it was not 4" where the tape was wrapped, it was not tallied. But if they require 16' semi tree length or longer, that 4" may be too small to get enough diameter on the top end. It all has to be chipped or ground either by the mill, logger or crew boss at a wood yard and required to be clean. Never heard tell of any mills using whole logs to make paper. Now that would be interesting. ;D Used to be a lot of wood yards around where buyers would take wood from loggers and chip the wood, then send to a mill. That worked for awhile until they went broke slowly doing it. Pulp mills take planer shavings and sawdust from sawmills. You have to know your markets and what their specs are. Not one size fits all, doesn't work that way. Also them specs get less rigid when they need wood bad. ;D
I don't think Jay BUYS chips to make paper,is what I meant. I have no idea what the spec are now. Last I knew anything over 4 feet to 8 feet long,4 inches across,be it soft or hard wood.
Rumford has the incline that unloads chip trucks. I have no idea what Jay has.
It's hard to say. Some mills have contracts for chips and all we might see is specs for pulp logs as a woodlot owner. I know I can find out, they got phones. ;D
3.5" diam. inside the bark on the small end of a 100" stick for LP in Newberry, Mi.
Here's our contract specs with the Jay mill.
8' Poplar (aspen) - Min top 5" Min butt 7" Maxi butt 16" length 90"- 96"
50% rot, requires 4' risers, (permanently attached) stakes at least 50" apart.
$60.64/ton or $151.60/cord $US
Mattawamkeag and Island Falls takes bigger wood and 16' min. length and 4" top min, 21" butt max. $53.79/ton $US
By contract I mean all of us woodlot owners/producers are covered under the marketing board contract in NB. That's not to say it's the same for those in Maine.
No contract for white pine,fir,spruce,hardwood?
you have trucks hauling all the way to jay from your area? they must have a bunk on the truck and grub enought for a couple days. must be at least 7 or 8 hrs one way
Quote from: Corley5 on March 16, 2014, 05:00:39 PM
3.5" diam. inside the bark on the small end of a 100" stick for LP in Newberry, Mi.
How do you deal with the bridge crossing, I've always been curious? Is it by the load, or ton or......?
Yes TL spruce/fir. They also have a wood yard over here in NB. I'd have to check, but maybe two. I know our boards have scales and slashers to process wood for some mill contracts. This time of the year they get filled up because of road closures coming up. Specs are TL spruce/fir, min top 3.5" , max 21" butt. Length 12' or longer. Cut to length 12'8" and 24'. Rot 4-9" minimal Rot 10"+ 50% of butt diameter. Sound red is okay. No soft rot. Has to be fresh wood only. $50.86/ton in Bucksport.
They also take studwood there at Bucksport @ $72.37/TON, Min top 4", Min butt 7", Length 12' or longer.
No pine or hardwoods that I can see.
Snowstorm, mostly southern NB I suspect. But it's either through Calais or Houltan. We have Huber up my way, which is not far away. I don't have those specs. Not every marketing board has their specs online but the info can be picked up at the local office.
Thanks for all the answers guys.
Around my area white pine is just about none. Maybe a couple pine on a 100 acre woodlot if your lucky, mostly none. So if there one or two pine they will be left standing. When you drive the roads here you can see all those junk pine left.
Swampdonkey,White pine don't grow good up there? White pine paid alot of my bills here. Not talking pulp either,logs. Lots of logs.
I don't deal with Da Bridge. I sell it roadside by the cord ;D :) and it gets converted from the tons the mill pays to cords for me. It works. Mark's told me what his max load is but I don't know now. Any load going to Da UP needs to look good. The Bridge is a catch point and they'll pull a truck for no reason at all.
It does grow well, but in my area it was all cut and anything not worth cutting is standing junk or impossible to get to. We have blister rust and weevils bad they ruin white pine up here. The ground and climate for white pine is good, just them 'introduced' pests. Plus all the high grading and farm land clearing. Other parts of NB have a lot of white pine and a lot less land for farms. The McCains have pushed farm clearing big time the last half century in this area, it's the potato belt. I've heard old Harrison (now dead) tell DNR to keep their trees in Fredericton. That old coot is where he belongs. ;)
York, Charlotte and Northumberland counties have the pines.
I see mill prices. What's everyone getting on the landing/roadside for pulp? Prices in the NE seem to be higher than we get. $45 a cord for hardwood and aspen roadside. $35.00 a cord for basswood.
White pine isn't worth planting here because of weevil and blister rust :(
Those are mill delivered prices Corley, so I couldn't comment on roadside price. They do plant white pine here, but 1 in 1000 trees type of thing, mixed in. The moose destroyed or have been destroying most all the 3500 I planted on my ground. I have lost a small number to rust. No weevil much because I planted them sheltered. But my woods is full of ribies, so no stopping rust.
Thank you SwampDonkey for answering my question ealier and to everyone for discussing all of this...Good info on this thread for a newcomer like me. :P
Quote from: CALJREICH on March 11, 2014, 06:11:58 PM
We have 50 acres of mostly pine. I had a forester from a mill tell me they are paying $3 to $4 a ton for pulpwood. They cut and haul. We thought this was pretty low but really don't know. We live in Pennsylvania. I would appreciate advise on this from those of you that understand this business. Should I ask for more money or accept 3 or $4 a ton?
Thank you
Well we are getting $4 a ton for our junk pine. Thanks for the info.
Just curious, Where are you?
We get 20 a ton picked up down to 4 inch top 8 - 22 ft logs and not getting rich.
$37/ton roadside here for spruce and fir pulp. Hardwood and poplar are $46/ton delivered.
Prices are essentially the same here ($39 ton for S/F and $36 ton for hw, roadside) and I can see the Verso mill in Bucksport from my job--less than two miles away
With a 10% premium on currency now, it pays more to haul to Maine. 8) 8)