New here, got a Belsaw

[jaygtree]

a friend used an old washing machine motor to power his saw dust drag chain, but he had electric close to the mill.  jg

[Don P]

I'm not certain, vague memory from old manuals, but if it is babbit bearings I think that would date it before WWII and it would have come with a solid blade rather than inserts.... I think ball bearings even predate insert teeth on the older ones. I think Belsaw started around the Depression.

If you can fabricate a new mandrel with the nut threaded the other way I think the L/H question just opened back up.

[moodnacreek]

Somewhere I have a pamphlet  showing the first belsaw in the 1930's.  It was all wood, and very short. I will say it was not really a sawmill but a bolter mill. At some point they added a set works at the back of the carriage where you cranked the feed. Insert tooth saws would have been an special order item,  almost always a style 3, as they go back before 1900.  Bell saw sold car motor pto adapters for ford, chevy and buick and other sawmill supplies.

[Don P]

I believe those early ones came push feed, as in you push, hand crank feed and the feed off the mandrel that is on all the ones I've seen 

[glendaler]

I'd consider an electric motor for the sawdust chain but probably 12V off the tractor, I don't really want to have to run cords to the mill, just back the tractor up and go. 

The ads I've seen show the hand crank feed for the 10' model with the 18' base, and power feed for everything longer than that. Haven't seen one for the push model.

He said it's an insert saw for sure that comes with it, just a little slow digging it out so i'm just waiting impatiently.

[glendaler]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[glendaler]

I also scooped up this 3spd GM trans while i was picking the mill up. Has a 3:1 reverse gear, so 1620 engine rpm would give me 540rpm equivalent turning the proper way. The engine I was planning to use if not my tractor was a 152 Perkins out of a 135 Massey, which takes a 1.125-10spline clutch, the same as the input shaft on this transmission, it's almost too good to be true. Unless the trans wouldn't hold up to constant running in reverse, then it is too good to be true.
 

  

[moodnacreek]

One of the drawbacks of babbet  would be heat getting to the saw. Just a few degrees in the saw makes a difference in how the saw runs so you want to avoid mandrel bearing heat near the saw.  If you had to make a new mandrel you would press off the fixed collar and heat shrink it on the new shaft and remachine the collar with the correct taper. The interfearence  shrink fit would  have to be known as would how much to heat the collar.    I would not be afraid to run that transmission in reverse , it's a lot less work and $ than my way.

[glendaler]

I can figure out the interference fits, do that all the time. 

The best part of this project just arrived, 44" saw, just like new. Not sure if it's the original but it's sitting in an original belsaw crate with the tag still stapled to the back. I had no idea this was the blade i would be getting.

 

 

[moodnacreek]

Now your getting some where. A good mandrel and a good saw is 98 percent of the circle mill.  As I always say, if the mandrel is not right nothing is right. The saw can be all kinds of problems but only one nut holds it on.  Get that shaft in good shape [ read up on circle mill trouble ] and with a good saw the rest is just nuts and bolts and common sense.  It's fun to saw logs and I hope you do it.

[bandmiller2]

Glen, if your lean on power you want to use a sawdust drag chain. Both of my circular mills used a length of 2 1/2" fire hose ends connected with clipper lacing. If your anywhere near electric its well worth your time to run direct burial wire to the mill, you will thank yourself in the future. No power, run the drag from a belt on the arbor it takes little power. You lucked out on the saw it looks good and perfect size. Belsaw mills were developed during hard times for farmers to save or make a little money sawing. They must have originally used solid tooth cordwood saws as they used 1 3/8" hole saws wile most large mills use 2" with two pins. You can use 2" with a bushing on 1 3/8 arbor. The very thing that makes the Belsaw so handy and usable as a one man mill limits the size of the logs you can cut. Basically the carriage is a log on a creeper as the wheel have to travel over the arbor. Regular wheels on the carriage and you wouldn't have much saw left. They will cut lumber and many sawyers got there start on a Belsaw. Be careful flipping logs on the carriage Belsaw recommends flip up log turners to take the pounding off the carriage as much as possible. Frank C. 

[glendaler]

Moodnacreek, I'll be giving the arbor a good going over, thanks for the encouragement, I'm totally committed to getting this together so you'll be seeing my sawing progress soon. By soon I've mean I have a about a 5 month plan going for this thing, but I'm having a hard time taking it slow. I took the carriage apart today down to every single nut and bolt, everything down to individual pieces. A few new bushings to make, but mostly just glass bead blast and paint.

Bandmiller, good info, i was seeing some peoples log turners and I wasn't seeing how they work exactly. Are they meant to turn the log for you like i've seen on full hydraulic band mills or just flip up to take the slam of the log as you turn it yourself with a peavy or something?

What's the simple explanation of the application difference between the regular, long and stand-all bits?

[moodnacreek]

Think of sawdust as small chips. The stand all teeth have a nub in the gullet area that holds or handles the chips differently  than traditional design. These teeth cost more and take more power but are sometimes necessary. Long teeth are regular teeth made longer to last longer. however they exaggerate poor filing and manufacturing problems and are not recommended for frozen wood.    These teeth are called bits or points and the holders are called shanks.   Keep up the good work, Doug

[bandmiller2]

Glen, the log turners I'm talking about are hinged wedges that flip up to turn logs/cants and fold down to roll logs on the carriage. After you take a slab cut and maybe a board you flip up the wedges and with a cant hook you pull the log towards you it lays on the two wedges and slides back on the carriage. This eliminates the shock of flipping the heavy log on the carriage. Its my understanding standall bits were developed primarily for frozen timber. Some sawyers use them all the time myself I prefer the standard bits they seem to run easier and use less power. Frank C. 

[Don P]

With very low HP the best combination I came up with was running half the teeth, grinding the other half out of the way and running standalls to clear the chips.

[glendaler]

Okay, got it, they're to take the slam of the log, not actually flip it over.

This blade has 26 teeth, based what I've been seeing alot of people have more teeth than that even on a smaller blade. Is this a fairly low tooth count for the size of blade or am I wrong? I assume like a chainsaw these teeth are lower as they sharpen and wear so putting half new teeth in and leaving half in would be the same as grinding half down? That would only be 13 teeth on a 44" blade. I'm guessing the answer is just to try it the way it is.

[Don P]

They do narrow and lower as you sharpen, swaging rewidens the narrowing if you do that but you are also advancing so one more variable in there. I rarely swage, I usually just replace and bear the cost which isn't that great on my humble scale.

My 46" has 30 teeth so I've been running 15. I think in Lundsford's "Circular sawmills and their efficient operation" He gives optimum feed per tooth. From memory, and it varies from softwood to hardwood, I think he was specifying around 1/10" feed per tooth in hardwood, that is the "bite" per tooth. With more feed the bite is too great and can fill the gullet before it clears and hang the saw, too little bite and you make fine dust that spills out the sides, rubs, and heats the blade causing tracking problems. I didn't adjust the feed when I ground the teeth back so there is obviously a good bit of wiggle room. The Lucas runs a 5 tooth blade and manual push feed just as another way to think about it. Another way, many people when they are having stalling problems with an underpowered tablesaw switch to an 80 tooth blade or similar and make the problem worse, they are dragging a ton of teeth through the cut. If they switch to a low tooth count or smaller diameter, or both, and adjust their push rate things get better. A large production saw is all teeth, high power and feeds very fast. I haven't counted teeth on the new 48" saw but there are quite a few, I won't mount that until I have the new diesel I got from Greg hooked up. This is all just for that back of your head, run what ya brung and if it doesn't work there's some stuff to think about while you're experimenting around.

The main thing with turning is don't slam the mill, it is lightweight. Just nurse things around as much as you can. I've worn the back pockets off my jeans before .

[moodnacreek]

The low tooth count is for low power but also increases chip size on a mill with a slow feed. This is what you want and will be cheap to run.

[glendaler]

okay, I'll plan on trying to get a box of teeth and put 13 new ones in and leave the others.

how many wraps are meant to be on the feed drum? My gut tells me enough to get good traction so it doesn't slip without an excessive amount which would give you a wide wrap and sharper angles to your pulleys on either end. Is there a standard number?