Quarter sawing vs quarter sawn

[OlJarhead]

https://www.continentalhardwood.com//Lumber/Sawing.aspx

This gets to the point well. ;)
By the way, it's just a technical jargon thing.  I read an interesting article about the first methods or quarter sawing and it was quite informative.   I'll have to find it again if interested. 

[WV Sawmiller]

Eric,

   I'd call that "Rift Sawing". :D I guess quartersawn may be a by-product.

   I will concede flat sawing produces all types of lumber based on the grain orientation.

[123maxbars]

Sure miss seeing @WDH on the forum. He wound handle post like this pretty swiftly and usually no one would question his answer.

To add my 2 cents. I probably read more than I saw. Lately I have went down the wheelwright rabbit hole studying how they harvested their materials. In the old English shops circa1800s and earlier if oak did not show rays it wasn't considered quarter sawn

They also state certain parts of the wagons that were painted would not be until the buyer saw the wood and verified the rays on parts of the wood in addition to knot free wood

Book I am referencing
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521091950/ref=cm_sw_r_as_gl_api_gl_i_334SMY2G6HR609SK2Q4X?linkCode=ml1&tag=outofthewo034-20

[Klunker]

I occasional take logs out for sawing.
Larger stuff than I can handle myself.
When I take White Oak out I want it to have visible ray fleck.
So I have to go thru what I want with the guy running the saw.
If I tell him Quarter sawn I don't get what I want.

One sawyer told me what I want isn't quarter sawn but Ray sawn.
This guy understood what I was looking for, most guys running a saw it takes a couple minutes of explaining.
What has to be done is sawing the log up like one slices a pie.
Lots more work in handling vs saw time.
Not every board had ray fleck mostly due to bow in the log and how well it was set up for sawing.
But I'd say about 2/3 of the boards have ray fleck and some are just fantastic.
Lots more waste but lots more, to me at least, valuable wood.
Oh, and I told him I was willing to pay by the hour rather than his usual by the bdft.
That alone makes the sawyer willing to do as I want.


If you ask a woodworker what quarter sawn wood is they will describe boards with ray fleck. If you ask a sawyer they have a different idea.
I understand both perspectives, and neither is wrong.
Its a case of one term having different meanings depending upon who you ask.

So If your sawing for someone be sure you and they understand the end result and its agreeable to both parties.

Lastly if your having work done and your going to be picky about what you get be willing to pay for it.

By the way I have a1/2 dozen white oak logs that I want ray sawn and am looking for someone who might be willing to do it in my area.
It be a bonus if they would come to my place or be able to pickup the logs. I have some Red Maple and Sugar Maple that I want sawn up at the same time.

I'm in Sheboygan Co. WI if interested.

[OlJarhead]

In some of my above posts what you heard called Ray sawing is what is commonly known as Rift sawing.

That method produces the most true quarter sawn lumber but us the most difficult and time consuming.

@Yellowhammer on here as a method that probably most closely resembles this on a bandsaw and if you check out his YT channels he shows how it's done.

[Ben Cut-wright]

https://www.continentalhardwood.com//Lumber/Sawing.aspx

This gets to the point well. ;)
By the way, it's just a technical jargon thing.  I read an interesting article about the first methods or quarter sawing and it was quite informative.   I'll have to find it again if interested.

The link labels QS as 45-90 degrees and includes a photo of ray/fleck produced.
The link labels RS as 90 degrees and includes a photo of straight grain with no ray/fleck.

Both referenced schematics show different methods of QS'ing, IMO. The method labelled RS should result in likelihood of more QS.
 
It is my understanding that 80 to 100 degrees is the angle desired for best QS ray/fleck.
It is my understanding that 45-90 is the angle desired for the best straight line RS feature.  

Is my understanding incorrect?

[LeeB]

When we get done with this let's talk about slabs.  :D :D :D

[Old Greenhorn]

It might be a better subject, but you are assuming we will, at some point, get done with this and I'm not so sure about that. I'm only 67 and may live into my 90's but I think this discussion will outlive me. ;D :D

[LeeB]

Ok. hamburgers then. Somebody has to bring food into the discussion.

[longtime lurker]

Here's a first - I'm going to totally disagree with YH on something.

I don't care what his customers - and mine - consider quarter sawn. His customers are wrong. My customers are also wrong... even when I nod my head and sell them what they want... it doesn't make it right

Sawn aspect is nothing to do with fleck or ray pattern and everything to do with performance in service.... fundamentally it's about shrinkage and nail holding ability.

Quarter sawn wood should be somewhere between 70-90°. And yeah some say 65°, some say 75°, but that's angels dancing on the head of a pin This aspect gives predominantly radial shrinkage across the board face. Now radial shrinkage is on average half tangential shrinkage so what this results in is boards that can be expected to have minimum movement when exposed to changing moisture conditions in service. Joinery timber, instrument timber, anything that needs the maximum possible amount of dimensional stability in should be quarter sawn. However face nails will be driven between the growth rings which leads to a higher incidence of nail pullout and nail splits in quarter cut lumber because poor fastener retention between the growth rings is an inherent weakness of wood.

Back sawn of course is 0-30°. Tangential surface across the board face = higher unit shrinkage values. It does however have the advantage of better nail holding ability as nails through the face are at right angles to the growth rings, and also allows better recovery and far better wide board recovery than quarter sawing methods. Typical applications are heavy construction and framing lumber.

Rift is generally accepted as between 30-60°. The main advantage of rift is that it offers most of the dimensional stability in service of quartersawn with most of the nail holding ability of backsawn. Traditional applications demanding rift sawn wood are hull planking and cooperage.

These are the traditional woodworking designations for back, rift and quarter, and as mentioned its nothing at all to do with appearance.  Of course in Australia cutting feedstock we tend to use 0-45° as backsawn and 45-90° as quartersawn designations, which differentiate material aimed at the premium flooring market from material aimed for decking and cheaper flooring production. Even thats subjective, because some premium flooring timbers we backsaw as it gives a more pleasing appearance.

While it may be convenient it's bad business to dumb things down to suit any given customer. By all means give them what they want - and if thats rays or fleck then give them rays or fleck and call it whateverthehellyouneedto to sell it at a profit. But the fact that terminology is in common useage doesnt make it right and encouraging it .... yeah I dont know my traditional boatbuilder guys don't want ray fleck they want rift sawn no matter what the grain pattern. Same with my other boat building guys that do epoxy strip plank who want "quartersawn", which actually means they want backsawn so they can rip it down for quartersawn strips. My instrument guys and joinery guys want quartersawn for dimensional stability. My builders want cheap and straight. And the customers who want pretty don't care so long as it's pretty.

You tell me - but all these different applications and customers all want different things even when they call them the same thing. Know your business and educate your customers where you can I think.... and sell them what they want no matter what they call it. But these terms evolved for a reason and dumbing it down to suit what some sales guy at the lumber yard down the road calls it isn't my idea of professionalism.

Of course I'm OCD and a perfectionist so yanno... being pedantic is par for the course. :D

[YellowHammer]

People can sell and saw what they want and call it what they want, it's all good to me.  

However, I'm sticking to my opinion and the professional guidelines of the NHLA and in my business, how something is "sawn" or described or what techniques are used makes zero difference to the NHLA, which specifically addresses quarter sawn figure in the species I buy and sell as quarter sawn.  It's very straightforward.

I would recommend any business buying or selling wood to follow NHLA, however, anybody can do what they want, I only control what I do in my business, and I sell three types of "Quarter Sawn Wood" - Red Oak, White Oak, and Sycamore and it has to have 90% or better fleck on one face for me to up charge for it as clearly defined by the NHLA Codes, which most every professional sawmill in the country follows.  

I may quarter other species of wood, for various reasons, but do not sell it as "Quartersawn Wood" but can sell it as "Quartered Lumber" also as per NHLA codes, below.  That would include vertical grain, rift, etc.

The National Hardwood Lumber Association, "Rules for the Measurement & Inspection of Hardwood and Cypress" Code of Inspection Regulation, January 1, 2019, Cover shown below, page 27:









  
It might be interesting to know that I laminated and posted the relevant NHLA grading standards with pictures in my store on the wall, several years ago, just to address customer discussion such as we are having.  I just point to the wall, and say "we follow NHLA guidelines in everything we sell, there they are, it's pretty simple and its in black and white."

[Jeff]

This topic reminds me of a couple decades ago when our Mr. Tom was told by a certain someone of certain notoriety on another website, that the way he was determining Board footage when tallying lumber for a customer was somehow "illegal" according to the hardwood grading rules. Tom and I were in agreement in an offline conversation that a boardfoot was a boardfoot. 144 cubic inches, and it didnt matter between sawyer and customer, how you added it up, as long as the 2 parties were in agreement.  We took our conversation here, and it is here somewhere, and as far as I am concerned a boardfoot is still 144 cubic inches. I do remember our Mr. Tom usually talked in terms of vertical grain versus quartersawn or sawed.
Semantics.  As long as the parties involved are on the same page.

That conversation is here somewhere.

[LeeB]

That conversation is here somewhere.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=148.msg1256#msg1256

[alan gage]

I bought a bunch of flat sawn 1x12's from a local yard that were badly cupped. I ripped the center out of those boards and ended up two 4-5" vertical/rift sawn boards that were flat enough to face joint.

The entire process made perfect sense to me until I read this thread. Now I have no idea what happened or how. 



Alan 

[stavebuyer]

This topic reminds me of a word Rush Limbaugh borrowed from Warren Harding; Bloviate.

[SawyerTed]

Much of one's stand on quarter sawing/quarter sawn depends upon where you sit.  

I have customers who could not care less about quarter sawn lumber.  The want a bridge deck or trailer decking.  Other customers want their logs quarter sawn and we chase the ray flecks.  The first pays for sawing.  The second pays for a sawyer.  So this discussion has been valuable to me. 

Yellowhammer is 100% correct relative to his customers who are seeking the highest quality and most visually appealing lumber for furniture and cabinets and the like.  The NHLA provides industry standards.  YH's choice is to meet those, that's his business model.  

It is important to recognize that meeting standards or certain grades has value.  But equally important is to recognize that there are customers who "just want boards."

[scsmith42]

My 2 cents...

There is much mis or contradicting information on the internet and even amongst reputable lumber dealers and manufacturers regarding what constitutes quarter and rift sawn lumber.

Part of the reason why is that there are several different industry recognized organizations that provide information about quarter and rift sawn lumber. In the US, these include the USDA Forestry Products Lab (FPL), the National Hardwood Lumber Association (NHLA), the National Hardwood Flooring Manufacturers Association (NHFMA), and the Architectural Woodworking Institute (AWI). In Canada, the Architectural Woodwork Manufacturers Association of Canada (AWMAC) and Woodwork Institute (WI) are recognized as the primary lumber standards body.

All of these organizations agree that quartersawn lumber is determined by the angle that the annular growth rings intersect the face of the board, although NHLA stipulates that the lumber must show "figure". Unfortunately, they don't all agree on exactly what that angle is. Some define it as between 60 - 90 degrees, others define it as between 75 - 90 degrees, and still others define it as 45 - 90 degrees. 

In Professor Bruce Hoadley's book "Understanding Wood", he defines quartersawn lumber as that where the growth rings form angles of anywhere from 45 degrees to 90 degrees with the surface, with "rift grain" indicating surfaces intermediate between 45 degrees to 90 degrees. Hoadley also refers to rift sawn lumber as "bastard grain" too. Unfortunately, Hoadley does not provide references to any FPL, NHLA or AWI standards in his book.  Nor does he reference "figure".

What makes things even more confusing is that the standards organization for professional architects' - AWI in the USA and AMWAC and WI in Canada, has different definitions of quartersawn lumber than the NHLA.  AWI defines quartersawn lumber as having annual growth ring orientation between 60 - 90 degrees relative to the face of the board. AWI defines rift sawn lumber as measured by annular growth ring orientation between 30 - 60 degrees to the face of the board, with 45 degrees being "optimum" (page 449, Appendix B, section 3 Lumber of the 2009 1st edition of Architectural Woodwork Standards with drawing from same posted above). AWI does not address figure in their standards.

What I end up doing is asking customers what they're looking for.  Some folks want QS lumber for the stability and don't care about ray fleck.  Others only care about ray fleck on one face of the boards.  Those who plan to resaw want high fleck on both faces.  And then there are the contractors who call because the architect specified 12" rift sawn oak with no fleck...  

I wish that Robert (Yellowhammer) would come up with an easy method to produce wide rift using a band mill the same way that he invented the reverse roll quartersawing method.  That would truly make my day!

Oh well, life goes on and today the mill didn't break until almost the end of the day!  Life is good.

[jasonb]

I have read the NHLA Rules for Measurement & Inspection of Hardwoods & Cypress 2023 several times.

Paragraph 3 of item 4 in the General Instructions on page 4 states the following:

"After grade and thickness have been determined, special features, such as the amount of forty-five degree radial grain for classification as quarter sawn lumber and the amount of figure as specified for figured woods and some quartered woods, shall be considered."

Quarter sawn and figure are special features.

Taking this into consideration with what Yellowhammer posted above, the amount of figure shall also be considered when inspecting figured woods such as Red Oak, White Oak and Locust according to page 27(see above).

As I read it, lack of figure has nothing to do with lumber being quarter sawn.  Figure is merely a feature that shall be considered for hardwood.

This article by Gene Wengert also helped me try to understand this discussion.

Quarter-sawn defined | Woodworking Network



Yellowhammer,

Thanks for bringing this document to my attention.

[Ianab]

There are 2 main and sometimes different reasons for quarter sawing. 

One is appearance. like the ray flecks in white oak. Then you chase that ray fleck to get a premium for the lumber.

The other is stability. Some species will dry into pretzel if flat sawed, but 1/4 sawed they are straight enough to be made into decent hardwood flooring etc. The exact grain isn't as important then. So you might quarter-saw some eucalyptus species, just because if you don't you get firewood. But it's also "value added", because of now you have flooring blanks as opposed to firewood. 


But you only want to quarter saw if it's adding more value than the extra time it takes. 

[OlJarhead]

lol I've been gone at the cabin and missed all this.

My point was merely that one is the how and one is the result and they are not the same.

You can flat saw a log and have some lumber that us technically called quartersawn.  You can rift saw a log and have no rift sawn lumber.

[DonW]

What you see is not quarter sawn, it's not even sawn, so what do I call it?  smiley_confused

 R

[OlJarhead]

Is it split?

[btulloh]

Riven on the radials and planed

Just call it "nice"!

[DonW]

Yeah,  split or riven,( froe and wedges), but's that what you are calling it? Naming the material after how it was produced?

This distinction, it's clear enough to me. My (former) sawer would never quarter saw, there is no sensible economy in that for him. But I can definitely get sawn wood either with figure or vertical end grain. I might have to do some re-sawing but it's a freedom I enjoy.

Riven on the radials and planed

Just call it "nice"!

Yeah, that's it.

[beenthere]

Could be sliced.