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Cutting waves in big spruce

Started by KWood255, October 24, 2021, 09:53:25 AM

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KWood255

Good morning folks,

I have a new WM LT35HD, running new WM DoubleHard 9* blades. While cutting some big white spruce logs (16x16 cant etc) I'm periodically getting waves while sawing threw large knots. These blades are brand new, not resharpened. I do not yet have a tension gauge on my mill, but I am setting the tension adjustment as per spec. I don't think I am cutting too fast. Any suggestions or guidance you can offer is appreciated. 

Durf700

give the tensioner an extra 1 turn in.  slow down in the big knots.  spruce has knots like rocks.

jimbarry

If you aren't sure on your tension, go at a bit slower rate and slow down the RPM's too. Makes a difference for me. Also, what is the set on your blades?

20210617 saw milling knotty spruce - YouTube

barbender

When I saw the title of your thread the thought, "welcome to th club" went through my mind😁 If spruce has large knots, it is really hard to saw straight. Make sure your drive belt tension is to spec, other than that all I've been able to do is run thicker (.055") blades. I differ with most everyone on the cause of the waves. Most think it is caused by the hardness of the knots, but if you examine the cut the wave starts and end well before and after the knot. I think it is the swirly grain surrounding the knots that really gets fuzzy when sawn. This grain can also make the lumber nearly useless, as it is extremely weak around those large knots.
Too many irons in the fire

Southside

As mentioned drive belt tension is very important and often overlooked.  I beleive it calls for an inital adjustment after 20 hours, then every 50 hours after that and it will need it to keep peak performance.  

You can't adjust the RPM on a 35 and you do not want to tension the band beyond spec as you will ruin the band wheel bearings, been there, done that, twice.  I can be a bit of a slow learner.  

If you are going to be sawing a bunch more spruce then I would consider looking at 4 degree bands with your mill.  Going against conventional wisdom I run Turbo 7's on my 35 in Southern Yellow Pine which has very similar knot issues that your spruce does and they perfrom better than anything else on that mill.  

Going too slow can be as bad as going too fast, the band gets hot as a rusult.  You want to run your saw right up against the governor, not so it's bogging at all, but right on the edge for best cutting performance.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

barbender

I've been ruining lots of bearings on my 40 as well with blade over-tensioning, SS😁 I have to install the updated bandwheel I have on the shelf that uses a bigger bearing. I guess what I'm saying is that I still haven't learned, I'm just going to try heavier components😁
Too many irons in the fire

SawyerTed

T7° or 4° should perform better than 9° but hard knots plus wide cuts are tough to deal with on an LT35. 

Getting a feel for changing feed rates depending upon the hardness of the wood is probably one of the last operational skills to develop when learning to saw. It's especially hard to get that feel when the softness and hardness varies in one log ike it does in spruce.  That feel comes from experience and hearing the sound of the motor and the sound of the blade then adjusting feed rate.

There's a bit of wiggle room on blade tension depending upon which side of the orange washer you are adjusting to.  I wouldn't go past the orange washer.

I agree on making sure you have correct drive belt tension.  

Do you have a debarker?
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Resonator

The way I do it (manual mill and 19hp engine), I slow down the speed, change blades more often, and use lots of lube. Also once the log is squared up into a cant, and cut into smaller width pieces it does better. and I keep my 4' level handy and check cut quality as I go.
Under bark there's boards and beams, somewhere in between.
Cuttin' while its green, through a steady sawdust stream.
I'm chasing the sawdust dream.

Proud owner of a Wood-Mizer 2017 LT28G19

barbender

It's not a bad idea to saw your cants over size with spruce. You can true them up, it will saw straighter on the narrower cuts.
Too many irons in the fire

terrifictimbersllc

Quote from: Resonator on October 24, 2021, 12:10:05 PM
The way I do it (manual mill and 19hp engine), I slow down the speed, change blades more often, and use lots of lube. Also once the log is squared up into a cant, and cut into smaller width pieces it does better. and I keep my 4' level handy and check cut quality as I go.
Agree with breaking down big spruce into oversize clean cants,  put on a fresh blade to saw to final size. I'm using 055 turbos, 1-1/2, 55hp, and that's what it takes for me to get flat spruce lumber with the least drama.  

Ps 30-35 thousandths set helps also
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

barbender

Though I've never tried it (more work) I've read of guys staggering the cants. Say if you got 3, 3-1/2" cants, flip one or stagger the ends 6 inches so that you're not sawing through the same defect all at once.
Too many irons in the fire

WV Sawmiller

  I use 4* DH blades on my LT35 for just about everything now. Do slow down for the knots but the smaller hook angle takes a smaller chip and saws straighter for me in hard wood and knots. I can saw soft poplar with a 4* blade but I can't saw hard oak or ash or knotty pine/spruce with a 10* so I am phasing out everything but the 4* blades.

   I find the same issue with Norway spruce, hemlock and knotty pine as you are describing so use the 4* blades to compensate.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

ladylake


 Over here I get the straightest cuts with a 4° 3/4 pitch shallow gullet and heavy set in spruce.  If I had to use 10° deep gullet , 7/8 pitch  with normal set I wouldn't saw it.  Steve 
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

terrifictimbersllc

Quote from: ladylake on October 24, 2021, 01:46:24 PM

Over here I get the straightest cuts with a 4° 3/4 pitch shallow gullet and heavy set in spruce.  If I had to use 10° deep gullet , 7/8 pitch  with normal set I wouldn't saw it.  Steve
Any idea where to find such a blade 195" long and 1-1/2 wide ?
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Bruno of NH

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on October 24, 2021, 01:54:44 PM
Quote from: ladylake on October 24, 2021, 01:46:24 PM

Over here I get the straightest cuts with a 4° 3/4 pitch shallow gullet and heavy set in spruce.  If I had to use 10° deep gullet , 7/8 pitch  with normal set I wouldn't saw it.  Steve
Any idea where to find such a blade 195" long and 1-1/2 wide ?
DW Bands in Pa
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Rhodemont

 I really struggled with waves in some spruce this past spring.  I ran the the second log up which were pretty uniform and not real big knots.  I still have the base logs which are not as uniform and have big knots.  More threads like this make me consider that much more cutting for firewood rather than milling those big ones.
Woodmizer LT35HD    JD4720 with Norse350 winch
Stihl 362, 039, Echo CS-2511T,  CS-361P and now a CSA 300 C-O

barbender

The bad news is the knotty ones split worse than they saw😬
Too many irons in the fire

petefrom bearswamp

My most unfavorite wood to saw.
almost makes me glad the mill is gone.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

WV Sawmiller

Jim,

  Nice video. Sorry but it sure makes me love my hydraulics more. ::) I think know you are working harder than I am but I liked the play by play. I don't know how I would slow the RPMs on my engine. Slowing the feed rate is easy.

  Since I have hydraulics I use the loading arms to stage the flitches to be edged and when sawing at home without a customer/helper handling the boards, I use sawhorses similar to what you use to stage the finished boards only a little closer to the end of the mill. Also on my mill the sawdust comes out on my side of the mill. You have a very neat, well organized and impressive operation there but it looks like you are working hard to maintain it. I used to throw my slabs and edgings behind me on the other side of my sawdust pile but now I park my tractor there and put them on the forks till I get a load then I take them over to my slab pile and dump them which keeps everything a lot neater and with less handling. I see you are walking over to carry them each time which keeps things neat and clean but means more steps. We each do what we have to do with the design of the mill and the the wood we are sawing.

  Also you mentioned using 10-13 degree blades because of the soft wood. I use 4* because of the hard knots but I still have to watch the feed rate as you describe.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Bruno of NH

The bands with the notch in the tooth eat that spruce nice and flat.
I get them from DW bands 
They have them in 1" and 3/4 tooth spacing.
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

KWood255

Quote from: barbender on October 24, 2021, 11:01:16 AM
When I saw the title of your thread the thought, "welcome to th club" went through my mind😁 If spruce has large knots, it is really hard to saw straight. Make sure your drive belt tension is to spec, other than that all I've been able to do is run thicker (.055") blades. I differ with most everyone on the cause of the waves. Most think it is caused by the hardness of the knots, but if you examine the cut the wave starts and end well before and after the knot. I think it is the swirly grain surrounding the knots that really gets fuzzy when sawn. This grain can also make the lumber nearly useless, as it is extremely weak around those large knots.
I agree here barbender. I am seeing the same thing. My blades are the .045" but I'm going to try a few options. We have lots of big spruce here, so I want to get this sorted out! 

KWood255

Quote from: Southside on October 24, 2021, 11:10:43 AM
As mentioned drive belt tension is very important and often overlooked.  I beleive it calls for an inital adjustment after 20 hours, then every 50 hours after that and it will need it to keep peak performance.  

You can't adjust the RPM on a 35 and you do not want to tension the band beyond spec as you will ruin the band wheel bearings, been there, done that, twice.  I can be a bit of a slow learner.  

If you are going to be sawing a bunch more spruce then I would consider looking at 4 degree bands with your mill.  Going against conventional wisdom I run Turbo 7's on my 35 in Southern Yellow Pine which has very similar knot issues that your spruce does and they perfrom better than anything else on that mill.  

Going too slow can be as bad as going too fast, the band gets hot as a rusult.  You want to run your saw right up against the governor, not so it's bogging at all, but right on the edge for best cutting performance.  
Thanks Southside. I will check out the belt tension as well. I was not aware it was adjustable. 

KWood255

Quote from: SawyerTed on October 24, 2021, 12:06:54 PM
T7° or 4° should perform better than 9° but hard knots plus wide cuts are tough to deal with on an LT35.

Getting a feel for changing feed rates depending upon the hardness of the wood is probably one of the last operational skills to develop when learning to saw. It's especially hard to get that feel when the softness and hardness varies in one log ike it does in spruce.  That feel comes from experience and hearing the sound of the motor and the sound of the blade then adjusting feed rate.

There's a bit of wiggle room on blade tension depending upon which side of the orange washer you are adjusting to.  I wouldn't go past the orange washer.

I agree on making sure you have correct drive belt tension.  

Do you have a debarker?
Perhaps I'm too tight on blade tension Ted. I didn't notice the orange washer until I read your post. I had been aligning the adjuster hub all along on the bolt head. 
I will try some 4* blades here soon. Yes, I do have the debarker running anytime while sawing the outer edges off a log. 

SawyerTed

The bolt head top should align with the orange washer then tension should be right. 
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

alan gage

Spruce: Run .045" blades, keep them sharp, keep them tight, saw slow, and still get waves.

It's really terrible stuff.

Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

thecfarm

I only sawed a spruce once. I'm glad it was a only one log. I would of got tried carrying the so called lumber to the brush pile. 
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

alan gage

This is what spruce logs look like around here.  Unfortunately it's the only softwood we have in any quantity.  I use it for board and batton siding.  Or at least I did. I don't think I have the stomach to saw anymore. 









Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

Magicman

Thank you for that picture.  :o  That log is worse than the SYP logs that we culled Saturday and did not saw.  :-X

I am glad that we do not have any here.  ::)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

esteadle

2 more pieces of advice that have not yet been mentioned.

1) more lube - spruce can get pitch-y and build up on the blade before the end of your cut, adding to the chance that it will wander (deflect down or up) in the cut. More lube clears that faster and prevents that pitchy stuff from pushing the blade up or down; Also, add some pinesol or detergent to the water to help keep it from sticking to the blade. Wait at the end of the cut for the lube to clear the blade.

2) Change blades more often. you'll need to sharpen more but well-sharpened blades can cut the ligands in the spruce knots much better than a dull blade, and will avoid wandering in the cuts. Change the blade as soon as you see some deviation on the board. Keep the logs clean to avoid dulling the blades.


Imagine you are cutting a styrofoam ball that contains embedded marbles, with a string. As you move into the styrofoam ball, your string will deflect up and down to go around the marble unless you are slow and steady and get a groove going into the marble to keep the string in the marble. That is almost what Spruce is, basically. So you have to go slow, sharp, and steady through the whole entire length of cut.


Best of Luck.

Resonator

Oh yeah, I've sawed those bumpy - lumpy ones. About the only good thing they make kind of neat natural edge slabs with the wavy edges. Problem also (depending on the tree) they can taper a lot in diameter. 
Under bark there's boards and beams, somewhere in between.
Cuttin' while its green, through a steady sawdust stream.
I'm chasing the sawdust dream.

Proud owner of a Wood-Mizer 2017 LT28G19

alan gage

Quote spruce can get pitch-y and build up
Ah yes, another one of the joys of sawing spruce. Sometimes they have a drooling problem. 



Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

KWood255

Quote from: esteadle on October 25, 2021, 08:12:56 PM
2 more pieces of advice that have not yet been mentioned.

1) more lube - spruce can get pitch-y and build up on the blade before the end of your cut, adding to the chance that it will wander (deflect down or up) in the cut. More lube clears that faster and prevents that pitchy stuff from pushing the blade up or down; Also, add some pinesol or detergent to the water to help keep it from sticking to the blade. Wait at the end of the cut for the lube to clear the blade.

2) Change blades more often. you'll need to sharpen more but well-sharpened blades can cut the ligands in the spruce knots much better than a dull blade, and will avoid wandering in the cuts. Change the blade as soon as you see some deviation on the board. Keep the logs clean to avoid dulling the blades.


Imagine you are cutting a styrofoam ball that contains embedded marbles, with a string. As you move into the styrofoam ball, your string will deflect up and down to go around the marble unless you are slow and steady and get a groove going into the marble to keep the string in the marble. That is almost what Spruce is, basically. So you have to go slow, sharp, and steady through the whole entire length of cut.


Best of Luck.
Very good points...thanks again for everyone's comments and suggestions. 

Durf700

I have 2 loads of small to medium spruce coming that was almost free..  just paying for trucking..  I have 10 degree bands and 739 turbos.  which do you guys think will cut them better?  I have LT 35 25hp gas.

thanks

Crusarius

I saw alot of spruce. it all stinks!!!! once in a while everything aligns and I get nice smooth boards. But I have found the 4 degree band to be the only one I use for cutting it. any more than the 4 degree and as soon as I hit a hard spot the blade climbs fast!

Bruno of NH

Quote from: Durf700 on October 27, 2021, 01:52:16 PM
I have 2 loads of small to medium spruce coming that was almost free..  just paying for trucking..  I have 10 degree bands and 739 turbos.  which do you guys think will cut them better?  I have LT 35 25hp gas.

thanks
7/39 will cut spruce 
I have sawn fresh cut logs with them.
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

OlJarhead

The worst I've done is monster Ponderosa!  OUCH!  Slow down, tighten up, blah blah blah...it goes on.  I really don't like it anymore! ha!
Logzilla - The Rematch! - YouTube

That monster was BAD!  Knots the size of your hard hat and hard as rocks.  I found 4* bands seemed to work well but also checking blade alignment and head alightment and drive belt tension and carriage drive belt tension and all of the other things mentioned (lube etc etc) all help BUT the biggest thing for me seemed to be slowing down down down...it's a pain.

I did Logzilla's lil bro (drops on YT tomorrow -- first half anyway) and I lost hair over it I think.

By the way MM I NEED to get me a peavy hook!  These big logs would go a lot better if I could turn them LOL but I'd prefer NOT to mill them this big if I can avoid it.

Good luck!
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

WV Sawmiller

Durf,

   I'd buy some 4 degree blades.

   I started sawing some red spruce today and hit a knot that waved at me so I immediately swapped for a different new blade even though the other one had not been on long. It sawed right through but I did slow down and tightened my belt on my LT35 too.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Durf700

Thanks guys. I think I have 2 new 4 degree bands from last year.  I have a bunch of 739 turbos.   I will try them both. Looks like the logs don't have to many knots. First load showed up today! 

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