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Hard Cider

Started by 21incher, October 23, 2022, 05:51:26 PM

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21incher

Wondering if anyone else on here makes hard cider? We have been making it for years and everyone loves it. I have a batch in my cool root cellar that just turned 7 years old and it has aged to a flavor that is the most awesome cider ever. Just started my first carboy this year and shooting for 16% alcohol content. Most of mine in the past has been around 15% and hoping to top that.


It's going to get messy in a couple days so I always do the first ferment in a cooler to catch any drips. Can't believe how easy it is to make and how it has a slightly different flavor depending on the apple mixture.
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Jeff

I'd like to try some day, never have done that!
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rusticretreater

I make my own beer, cider.  And when its really cold, I go for apple jack whiskey.  Take your super hard cider outside, let it freeze pretty close to solid and pour off the watery stuff.  oh yeah.
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Crusarius

I would love to try that. always loved hard cider.

sawguy21

16%? :o That will curl your toes. @rusticretreater My boss would do that with a batch of wine he didn't like and use it to fortify the good stuff. He made a wicked pear wine, I forced myself to go easy if I had to drive home. ;D
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Don P

That is real apple jack.
I'm surprised you get to that alcohol content without sugar. I've made a few batches of apple wine, adding sugar to get to 12-15%. Hard cider here is usually too low an alcohol content to keep for too long Whicjh is why I've bumped it up to apple wine. I did dump the last of the sweet cider the other day, it had turned, which means if i had babysat it I could have had a quart of hard cider  :D. Hard cider that has vigorously hopped through a coil is, very nice.

21incher

Quote from: Don P on October 23, 2022, 09:30:49 PM
That is real apple jack.
I'm surprised you get to that alcohol content without sugar. I've made a few batches of apple wine, adding sugar to get to 12-15%. Hard cider here is usually too low an alcohol content to keep for too long Whicjh is why I've bumped it up to apple wine. I did dump the last of the sweet cider the other day, it had turned, which means if i had babysat it I could have had a quart of hard cider  :D. Hard cider that has vigorously hopped through a coil is, very nice.

First batches I made had no added  sugar but everyone wanted more alcohol  so I first kill the natural yeast then add sugar to adjust the brix and use champagne yeast that supposedly can live to 18%. It's raw tasting dry cider for the first  year then ages out to a wine after a couple years. Some batches I use brown sugar that gives it a molasses after taste. Not many people can drink  more then one 22 oz bottle. Late season  apples give it the best  flavor. 

When I was young  a friend and I tried  making a 55 gallon wine drum of hard cider and wound up with 55 gallons  of apple  cider vinegar 🤮

I still have to bottle my last years wine made with  Concord grapes and elderberries.  
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rusticretreater

There are several labs that make high quality yeasts for just about everything including high ABV yeasts.  You use them to start and then you should be cultivating your own from left over slurry.  White Labs has good stuff.

I use an erlenmeyer flask, boil some dried malt extract in water, let it cool and pitch the yeast in.  Put an air lock on it and sit in a cool dark place. Swirl it around once or twice a day for about 4-5 days to keep it in suspension.  The yeast multiplies like crazy.  Then pitch it into room temp apple mash and stir it up.  It will start bubbling in an hour or two.
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Ianab

Bear in mind that yeasts can mutate or become contaminated with wild strains over time. You can certainly re-use the yeast from a ferment, and it might be OK for years, or it might mutate into some new strain over time.  The labs keep their favourite strains freeze dried in long term storage so they can grow fresh pure batches of their good strains. 

I remember the saying, "You can put brewing yeast in bread, and it will work fine. But don't put bread yeast in your beer". It will ferment just fine, but it probably won't taste very good. 
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LeeB

Anyone know how to tell the final ACV after the ferment is finished other than estimated content using a hydrometer?
I'll be starting 10 gallons of apple wine tomorrow. Also have 15 gallons of blackberry that has just finished the primary ferment and will be going into carboys. I tried watermelon wine for the first time this year and have 15 gallons of it aging. Hmmm, Sounds like I might be a wino.  :D
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rusticretreater

Kinda complicated and still only a rough estimate.

Specific gravity is the weight ratio of your liquid in comparison to pure water at 68 degrees. And since this ratio is from 0 - 1.0, at 68 Fahrenheit or close to it, crude determination entails weighing out 100ml of your liquid using a graduated cylinder and on a calibrated lab scale.  You could use other volumes but they should always be based on 10.  10 ounces, 100 ounces, 100ml, 1000ml.

It will read out to a ratio around 0.80-1.00 (the alcoholic beverage weighs between 80 to 100 percent of pure water). Percent alcohol can then be calculated from there using Alcohol By Weight conversion to ABV formula.

So you weigh the pure water, you weigh your fermented spirit, calculate the ratio between the weight differences and then derive ABV using a conversion formula.  There are several versions online and the requisite arguments over which to use and its accuracy.

This does not take into account the amount of sediments floating in the liquid which are not alcoholic in nature. So straining or slight filtering might be used if you want to come closer to an accurate figure.

Or you can buy a hydrometer and save yourself the trouble.

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LeeB

I've got a hydrometer. Just wanted to know the actual finished ACV instead of the estimated ACV derived using the hydrometer.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

SwampDonkey

The original apple orchards up this way was for making hard cider. Wasn't for eating apples. There were lots of old apple trees here behind the house that were never an eat out of hand apple. There were real large ones on some trees that we called winter apples. They never dropped until a hard freeze. There was a crab apple for preserves, and really only 3 or 4 good eating apples. There was an acre of trees here. But every old farm house had an orchard. Some places the houses are long gone and the apples still stand.
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kantuckid

I have been making wine for many years and have 5 types in my cellar now. I've made it from fruit in the past but make wine ingredient kits now. Many kit makers leave out some water in a kit to jack up flavor & mouthfeel plus alcohol. I often use concentrated grape juice sold for wine makers to enhance flavor or alcohol/ Making whats called "simple syrup" is common for winemakers to jack up the alcohol, etc. That would work well with apple cider wine. 
Apple wine is a higher alcohol content that hard cider, with apple wine around 12% to 14%. Hard cider is sometimes thought of as cider made hard by fermenting w/o sugar added and gives a far lower % than the wine at around 4% to 7%. A wine at 4-7% will not store well w/o a wine preservative.
 Apple jack does as discussed ramp up that % a bunch and does store well-if you stay out of it.  :D
My apple cider book has much information and recipes on cider and hard cider. 
Around 30 years ago I rebuilt and antique, two basket, cider press. I've not used it in years and think I should offer it to a commercial orchard for fall harvest public to see. I froze my cider in milk jugs, never tried for wine or hard stuff though as I/we liked it fresh. My wife still uses cider in her Apple Butter to jack up the flavor.  
I worked for years with an Elliot Co, KY man (he taught carpentry) who ran a moonshine still and took apple juice through his still for apple brandy. I was always intrigued that it still had an apple smell and flavor left when it had become a clear liquid and high buzz factor as well. As I recall his apple brandywas double distilled.
 
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doc henderson

for beer and whiskey we use a refractometer.  It also measure specific gravity.  we used it in peds to look at urine concentration.  I do not know if it is more accurate or direct than the hydrometer.

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Chuck White

We use one of those when testing Maple Syrup!
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Don P

I've seen growers using them in orchards and vineyards.

SwampDonkey

I've never really acquired a taste for any alcoholic concoction. But I have had relatives that would never blink an eye. :D
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Al_Smith

Then there was Gomer Nickles at the time in his 80's .Gomer was once in the "great white fleet " in the US Navy .He'd prop his feet up on the pot belly stove in his sons shop while we worked on things drinking hard cider and get pie eyed and catch his rubber boots on fire .There was a box full that every so often went in the stove .My word did that rubber stink to high heavens .RIP Gomer gone but never forgotten .

sawguy21

That is funny :D I never acquired a liking for hard cider, too acidic for my taste, but sure do like the sweet stuff. It is hard to find in the stores now and this is apple country!
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Al_Smith

Cider which is just a stage until it turns into vinegar is supposed to be good for you .I really was never fond of either one except vinegar is good for cleaning windows .For that matter another thing I wasn't overly thrilled about doing . As a kid my mother seemed to like us to do it about this time of year,40 degrees with the wind blowing .Herself on the inside myself on the outside on a ladder .

doc henderson

Al that is part of what turned you into the man you are today.  God bless your mother!
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metalspinner

My son makes hard cider, Brandi, Perry, beer, etc. 
Nick would spy pear and apple trees around town and ask for the fruit for his experiments. 
But he's a chemist and loves the science of it all. 

I just picked up 9 bushels of apples on Sunday to make sweet cider. We do it each year and have friends over to make an event of it. We get enough to give away and put in the freezer for enjoyment all year. 

I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Al_Smith

Well Doc as they say a clean window is a happy window.I still do it BTW but with a long handled squeege .Windex these days not vinegar and in nicer weather .As for the cider my friend Georgie  Girl bought some store bought stuff ,not too bad BTW .

kantuckid

Quote from: doc henderson on October 24, 2022, 10:37:22 AM
for beer and whiskey we use a refractometer.  It also measure specific gravity.  we used it in peds to look at urine concentration.  I do not know if it is more accurate or direct than the hydrometer.


I use two, inexpensive, glass devices that are cheap and accurate enough for home wine makers. You must know alcohol and SG to make a fermented juice or it's gonna waste your materials and time not too mention the end products quality. One is typical weighted tube for SG, used for progressions thru wine making stages, the other smaller one is alcohol % and uses a tiny internal space. i've seen some on ebay that are easier to read than my current version.
My urine goes to a lab :D sometimes or our septic system, or the driveway. My 3 yr old grandson ask me last week- why I peed in the driveway. He lives in town me, I'm among the critters and its handy. My wife has mixed her own window cleaner for years and it's lots better than windex, not too mention cheaper. I wish I had some apples to pick up!
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Al_Smith

Well now that brings up my theory. We just kind of recycle what  we drink.It could be from rain or liquid such as cider ,my favorite is beer BTW .We only rent it so to speak then expel it .So in theory I could drink a few brews, mark my territory on one of the massive oaks I have . Some could make it's way to Lake Erie out the Niagara river into the Atlantic Ocean .Form a rain cloud then drift back westward and rain on Columbus Ohio right on top of a former wife .Poetic justice as I see it . ;D

LeeB

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Don P

Not like it was back in the good old days when water could strip flesh.. It's pretty much all dinosaur pee and Genghis Khan breath anymore :).

Al_Smith

I don't know if this is true or not .It was told  to me by an old well driller who knew pretty much about  the under ground water aquafers in NW Ohio .He said some of my water in one well could have came from the second ice age .It would be a safe bet nobody is alive who could verify that as fact or fiction.
Now that was only on the shallow well of 117 feet in a gravel vein .The deep well in the limestone at 180 feet might be dinosaur pee for all I know .Stunk like it when it had sulfur  which is all gone for some reason .If you go deep enough you will hit oil .About 1700 feet .They just keep mum about that  . :-X

LeeB

A question for those of you that make naturally fizzed cider, how do you get it cleared? I have some now that is about 14% and still fizzing slightly but is still very clouded as is normal with raw wine. At 7 or 8 % where it was still quite fizzy it was even more cloudy.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

21incher

Quote from: LeeB on November 10, 2022, 03:59:11 PM
A question for those of you that make naturally fizzed cider, how do you get it cleared? I have some now that is about 14% and still fizzing slightly but is still very clouded as is normal with raw wine. At 7 or 8 % where it was still quite fizzy it was even more cloudy.


I use yeast and give it time. My batch is still  settling out from the first  fermenting  and in a couple  weeks I will siphon  it off to a slightly smaller  carboy being careful  not to stir up the dregs. Then I move that to my cool basement still under airlock to let the final sediment settle down before re siphoning to the bottling bucket. I find it takes about 6 months of sitting  in the second  carboy to have perfectly clear cider and you want very little head space in the second carboy. Bottle it to soon and there will be nasty yeast sediment in the bottom  of the bottles that messes up the flavor.  Also be sure  it's  in a cool location for the best flavor.  Mine is not bubbly though. 
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LeeB

That is what I do for wine and at that point I would consider it to be apple wine and not cider. To me cider has a fizz to it. 
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

kantuckid

Quote from: Al_Smith on October 27, 2022, 05:02:57 PM
I don't know if this is true or not .It was told  to me by an old well driller who knew pretty much about  the under ground water aquafers in NW Ohio .He said some of my water in one well could have came from the second ice age .It would be a safe bet nobody is alive who could verify that as fact or fiction.
Now that was only on the shallow well of 117 feet in a gravel vein .The deep well in the limestone at 180 feet might be dinosaur pee for all I know .Stunk like it when it had sulfur  which is all gone for some reason .If you go deep enough you will hit oil .About 1700 feet .They just keep mum about that  . :-X
My FIL, who died in 1980 drilled in OH for oil, gas and water. He drilled for water as a sideline when he worked for Dayton Rubber. His brother who owned the oil company he drilled for lived in Zanesville, OH
All states, including OH, they know very well what many formations hold at what levels. The required cores are stored by state geological agencies and recorded. It's no secret, as you suggest. 
Having "some" oil/gas  doesn't mean it's enough to rile brandon... :D
Often that coniferous gas/sulphur smell comes in an area where drillings been done.  
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kantuckid

Quote from: LeeB on November 10, 2022, 06:02:30 PM
That is what I do for wine and at that point I would consider it to be apple wine and not cider. To me cider has a fizz to it.
Go on any informative wine makers supply website of info site and you'll see clearing agents for sale. They are included in all wine making ingredients kits. Of course settling is a part of the process, as is carefully siphoning the product. I use an inexpensive siphon device sold by all wine makers suppliers. Commercial producers filter. 
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21incher

Quote from: LeeB on November 10, 2022, 06:02:30 PM
That is what I do for wine and at that point I would consider it to be apple wine and not cider. To me cider has a fizz to it.
The best way to carbonate it is supposed to be, ferment it dry, then back sweeten with apple juice then keg it and force carbonate it. Fizzy cider can turn into bombs naturally from what I have read.
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Ianab

With beer you ferment until all the sugar is used up. Fermentation stops because the yeast has run out of sugar, not the alcohol getting so high that it kills the yeast. Then you add a small controlled amount of sugar and bottle it. 


Providing you DID complete the primary ferment, and don't add to much sugar, it will naturally carbonate (and not explode). Of course mistakes happen, usually a stalled ferment (too cold?), so you bottle with too much residual sugar, and that creates bottle bombs  :o 


Traditional Champagne is done in a similar way, and they decant out the residual yeast and reseal the bottle,  So if it works for beer and wine, so reason it won't work for cider. 


You also want to get your alcohol % up to at least 5%, because that acts a preservative. Too high and the yeast dies off before fermentation completes. Different yeasts have different tolerances, hence the mention of using a wine yeast. Of course the different yeast types also affect the flavour.  
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Don P

As a kid I was brewing some dandelion wine in my bedroom and thought it was done, so capped the gallon cider jug off tight and was waiting for it to settle. About midnight one night the bottle blew, took out some drywall and covered pretty much everything in sticky smelly sauce. Dad was unimpressed :D.

Some years later I capped off some beer apparently too early. The interesting thing about a case of overcarbonated bottles, when one goes, they pretty much all go off. I had learned enough by then that I kept them in a cooler.

With apple I'm no pro but was using champagne yeast which is pretty neutral but tolerates high alcohol. I was making a still wine but no reason you could not carbonate it. I'd save some heavy champagne bottles, regular wine bottles are thin.

kantuckid

Yes, wine with pressure calls for wired on caps & heavy bottles.
 Winemakers routinely "kill" any possibility of residual fermentation (for safety) prior to bottling using potassium sorbate. This also allows back-sweetening to get a wine where you like it on the dryness scale w/o danger of a blow up which would certainly happen if any sugars introed.  
  Wine juice is typically made inert prior to initial fermentation using Campden Tablets so there are no wild yeasts or vinegar bad guys present. Then the wine yeast is introduced and primary ferment begins. 
Some wines have a natural fizzyness that comes from that grape varietal. We buy store bought Riunite Lambrusco am Italian wine, (mostly Emilia version) which was once the most popular retail wine in the entire USA. We use it for Sangria as it has just the right character for that drink (we mix it with fresh OJ) and is inexpensive as well. It has some fizz on your tongue, not as much like a truly fizzy wine that pops when opened.
I've never made a pressurized wine. 
My first wines were done from seasonal (once a year back then) Thompson Seedless grapes when I worked in a grocery store (loose grapes were thrown away in those days) and came out a nice pink. I was around 20 yrs old and had no idea what I was doing other than asking around from beer makers I knew.  
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tule peak timber

Be careful with pressurized wine. When I was a young lad, I temporarily capped some 5 gal. glass water bottles when I was moving from a downstairs apartment to a newer upstairs unit. I took one of the sealed fermentation jugs upstairs, immediately returned downstairs for the next one and found it had exploded in the kitchen, spraying ferment over all of the cabinets and even ruined the ceiling acoustical spray!  It occurred to me that the bottle upstairs might do the same thing, so I ran upstairs and found the same thing. Two explosions in two different apartments, the same day. What an expensive double mess!  :'( 
My great-grandfather had 21 kids and his own wine label. He sold out to a little CA upstart guy named Gallo. I've used grapes, cactus fruit, ginger root, rose hips and other stuff I can't recall with varying degrees of success. I have a lot to learn about wine making! 
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

LeeB

I never would have thought about cactus tunas but it makes good jelly so why not wine?
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

tule peak timber

You need to peel them, but they are full of sugar.
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

kantuckid

The list of what can be used for wine is long indeed but many of those things make a wine which is unremarkable. Mostly some things just lack flavor that is meaningful. 
Another tidbit on wine that might catch some off guard, wine grapes are far sweeter than table grapes. Ask someone around you and they'll assume a table grape would be sweeter as we buy them to place directly in our mouth, so on. I've had mixed results with batches of the same fruits. One of the best wines I ever made was from Marionberries-a tame blackberry variety. I made it again a few years back and it's drinkable but far from as good. Likely I didn't control the sugar to be same in those batches, or the fruit just had more flavor in one vs. the other. 
Those Thompson Seedless Grapes I mentioned, were once about the only seedless grape grown. The wine they make has very mild flavor that definitely doesn't stand out. Mostly it's not worth using many grapes not a wine variety to ferment. 
There's been lots of Welch's grape juice concentrate wine made but IMO, it's a waste of time. 
 
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Don P

One of the best fermentables is day old donuts but it isn't much on flavor  :).

When you close the loop on that group of cottage industries, a horse-cart with a still on it made its way through the area stopping at each farm. The sorry wine made good brandy, or, good wine made excellent brandy. We chose to put a high paywall in front of that simple horse cart.

LeeB

Quote from: Don P on November 13, 2022, 08:26:27 AMOne of the best fermentables is day old donuts but it isn't much on flavor


Are you letting out secrets about your past? :D
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

tule peak timber

Wild rose hips with sugar added to the ferment turned out pretty good.
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

21incher

Quote from: LeeB on November 13, 2022, 10:26:36 AM
Quote from: Don P on November 13, 2022, 08:26:27 AMOne of the best fermentables is day old donuts but it isn't much on flavor
A friend of mine made awesome bacon with doughnutsfood6. Every couple hours Dunkin Doughnuts used to toss them out and make fresh. Fattened up his pig Nixon with them fast in the last couple weeks.




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Don P

Kinda sugar cured from the inside out  :D

SwampDonkey

Pickled to. Pickled pig's feet anyone? :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

tule peak timber

Please sir ,,,may I have another ? 8)

 
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

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