hello new circular mill saw question

[James P.]

Hello , I am thankful to have found the forestry forum , has given me new inspiration. I am pretty much a hermit and  have been building my own circular sawmill for the last 10 years off and on. Haven't sawed much other than just test runs. My blade is 56" 47 tooth b style 8 gauge. I was wondering if mixing shanks would be possible. Like 8 gauge and 9 gauge. half and half.I have built my mill on a truly shoestring budget without cutting many corners. thats why its taken so long. thanks for any help and when I get a camera card i will be posting pics . thanks james

[Frickman]

James P.,

Welcome to the forum! You'll like it here.

I've been cogitating over your question, and here's what I came up with. If you mixed shanks like you want and alternated the 8 and 9 gauge you might get away with it for awhile. My problem with it though is that the shanks being different gauges, or thicknesses, are going to impart different amounts of tension on the saw. Also, if you don't have a thick enough shank in relation to your saw kerf you'll have sawdust spilling out of the gullet and causing problems. Likewise, if you have too thick of a shank in relation to your saw kerf the shank will be rubbing the log and cause all kinds of problems too. When you mix the thickness of shanks you will have a strong chance of either of these happening.

The saw, shanks, and bits are a system that have to work together. I don't have the information here in front of me, but certain size bits need certain sizes of shanks. I can look that up if you want. Ron Weinrich will be along sometime, he knows alot about this subject.

One thing you have to remember is that anytime you change shanks you change the tension of the saw. If you take out new 8 gauge shanks and replace them with identical, new 8 gauge shanks you probably won't notice it. Where folks get in trouble is when they replace old, worn out shanks with brand new ones. That can drastically change the tension. Anytime I change shanks the saw goes back to the saw doctor and he changes them. He can then check the saw and hammer it if necessary. By the time I wear out a set of shanks the saw could use a checkup anyway.

Now if you're real careful and watch what you're doing you may make this work. Especially if you're running your mill on a part-time / hobby basis. The best thing to do may be to save up your pennies and take the saw to a good saw doctor. $400.00 or so should get you all fixed up.

[James P.]

thanks for the welcome and reply Frickman. I have been reading the post on the forum for the last week. before joining. so much info and cool projects . I mostly have to pull myself away and go outside and work on my projects . Well my blade is old and my shanks were I thought fine until I got a few new ones. Mine were worn out. My blade before replacing was slight dish to log but at 550 600 rpm she runs smooth . I have cut a few maples and red oaks but notice that blade was tapping the guides the last time. shut her off and blade was warm .teeth are new . I have read about setting saw lead and other setup things to consider but was trying blade first with new shanks. just replaced 24 of the 47 with new b8's other 23 are old I paid 1.00 a pcs for the new ones but that was all they had. They have 23 b 9's. I was hoping to get for same price. Every dollar counts so going to saw doc 400 is scary. Had no idea . thanks for sharing , I appreciate the help. Yes I have seen blades get hot and  go wobbly . Not mine , or atleast not yet but I listen to the cut and watch carefully .  I am running a 4 71 detroit for power . I wish I had found this site earlier . I would have had a lot less sleepless nights . Always thinking of how I am going to set  something up or make that work. I have no problem asking for help. Just didn't know it was available.

[Ron Wenrich]

I can't see any reason to mix the shanks.  The 9 gauge will make every other tooth a little stronger, but it will also give the opportunity to rub the log.  Heat in the rim is a lot worse than heat at the eye.

For the money, I would get the rest of the shanks replaced and get the saw hammered.  New shanks will change your saw, and it will need to be hammered.  Your wobble could be from putting in the new shanks.

Your old shanks will end up spilling dust down the side of your saw, and that will heat it up.  It will become even worse in the winter.  Log species that don't pull coarse dust will also spill down the sides, even in good weather.  Oak, hickory and black locust are just a few.

You need to know what rpm you're going to be running.  550 600 just doesn't cut it.  When the saw gets hammered, they do it for a certain rpm.  550 seems to be a good one for smaller handmills.  I'm running 690 on an automatic with electric motor.

After you get the saw in good shape, then you can go to the lead factors and work your way through any problems.  Right now, I'd get the saw in good running order.

[bandmiller2]

Welcome James,their is very few thousands of an inch differance in the shanks,I would go ahead and use them and in the future when you can replace with 8's,Stager them around the blade.I would be more concerned with proper lead.What style bits are you using??James did you restore an old mill,assemble one from odd parts,or build it from scratch.??Have you read the forest service booklet by Stan Lundstrom circular sawmills and their efficient operation its on the net and has about everything you need to know.Frank C.

[bandmiller2]

Ron,correct me if I'am wrong but the 9 gauge shanks are thinner than the 8's ,gauge system works backwards.Frank C.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Welcome to the forum James Im glad you found us too Mate Theres another Circ Man looks like you've had a labour of love there for awile now Mate    ;) :D ;D ;D ;D 8) 8)

Alternating 9s on a 8 gauge saw will work for you  ;) (but only as a stop gap  ;) )( they are lighter Frank  the bigger the # the thinner the saw  ;) ;D ) and at $1 ea they should work well enough untill you can get some coin together to put new 8s in i think they would runn at around $5.50 mate

Brought myself a new saw afew years ago from a local supplyer in Aus they musta thought i was stupid as they put old shanks in when they sent it down from syd Droped two in the first log  ??? : ( what was happening was that they where fatigued and were letting go at the back of the shank neat the pin hole  :) Luckly i had some here to get me through  ;D but i got on the phone and told them to send a box down  free of charge :( >:( ;) :D :D

I look forward to you contributing to the forum Mate  ;D ;D 8) 8)

Regards Chris

[apm]

I guess it depends on how worn out is worn out? Shanks can be "sharpened", for want of a better term. You can file the corners back square and sharp, extending their useful life. You can also stretch the shanks with a center punch, judiciously used, to tighten them up if necessary. Either way may change the tension in your saw, but then again, it may restore the tension to the original level. I'd vote for all shanks the same size if possible, but then I understand shoestring budgets as well as anyone.  ;D

Greg

[James P.]

Hello and thank you for all your replies, I do appreciate all the input. I have run a large automatic mill for 3 months with 5 employees . I took it over on the cuff. Had no sawing issues I loved it. I loved desciding what the log would become . we just cut pallet and fence and RR ties and some small custom orders My employees werent as happy with the work. Well the owner also was my log supplier. he kept the yard nice and empty. I was usually scrounging. He had the contracts to fill I basically paid the bills with what I made.Eventually I had to go back to my dream of my little handset. I found the sawdoc on this site in Pa and see he says 125 for hammering. Now that I could live with. Just will have to make arrangement to get there.My shanks were worn thin. they were so rusted I had put them on a wet wheel and clean them up filed the gullet for sharp corners. wasn't really aware of there critical dimensions.I got lucky and bought my teeth at an auction for 50 bucks for a box of simonds carbide bits. I actually wish they were steel because I would rather hand file them without buying a special diamond file.I bought this mill from a farmer 12 years ago . It was dismantled without the wood frame. Just the blade , saw arbor 2 7/8 , large worn out babbit bearing. All carriage parts  , set works, track and  cable drum I believe the sawmill was made by Knight Co. What I bought was just the metal parts.  I had the arbor turned down to 2 3/4 , bought large type e pillow blocks . removed babbit from carriage wheel bearings and managed to split bronze bushing and fit them into casting. Removed large gear on side of drum feed and put on the same size diameter 120 sprocket. Run carriage with hydraulic motor since I had no other husk frame parts ,pulleys etc. to run it. I didn't go back with timber , I found a scrap yard that had a pile of square steel tubing 6 and 10 inch The owner told me I could make payment on it. I was up to his yard when someone else was looking at it. The owner told the guy it was sold. The guy ask me what I paid. I told him .He paid the bill and gave me the steel I needed to build track. I got what I needed made owner me and the buyer happy. I then went by the carriage wheel width and length of setworks shaft to build the carriage. thats where the sleepness nights came in figuring out how to put this thing together. I had no YOU. Just me and whole lot of doodling to see how it would work. well to get to the end. I have been answering the question have you got your sawmill done yet for so long and I would always answer as long as I don't give up before I kick the bucket I will be happy. well I did it . Maybe not a big deal to some but In the years since purchasing I managed to buy a pcs of land , pay off the 300 a month land payment and my 50 dollar utility bills. I have spent whatever I made scrapping metal to buy parts. I have 2 other blades I trade for but they did cut bad and I believe need hammering. One day. but I have built it a small building and got it this close. I don't have my drivers Lic . Not for a bad reason other than I can't bring myself to pay for what it takes to have insurance and all the other things it cost to drive. Sorry I look at life as I am not going to be a slave to what I don't want to do. I drive my tractor to the junk yard. Slow but it gets me there. When it comes down to it I am cheap but I don't skimp on quality of what I have used to make this sawmill work I have just been patient. I built a log turner and still haven't found large enough sprockets to run the hydraulic motor and turner shaft. I will take pics. I am no engineer so yes there are things I would have done differently if I hadn't been working with what was given. I was blessed to have gotten this far without going into any debt and basically being self sufficent. I have eaten alot of deer meat and when gone I have eaten alot of balogna. well as you can see I can talk an ear off. I love working , but I love talking to people who share my same interest. I have been on the internet for some years and have joined a few forums that dealt with woodworking equipment or farm machinery but never stumbled upon this one. I never search a sawmill question until last week. I honestly didn't think you guys were out there in a group. I bet if it wasn't for the bandsawyers , you might not be. thanks again. When I get to borrow a camera this weekend I will post my pics .

[bandmiller2]

James thats quite a story,i know you will enjoy your humble mill more than mr. Bigbucks and his store bought unit.Keep in touch with your progress.Frank C.

[Bruce_A]

I think there are some limits that should be considered on a circle saw for RPM's.  My Audel manuals suggest ten thousand feet per minute as a maximum speed.  The 550 to 600 rpm's you are guessing at for a 56" saw would I believe be too fast.  This would cause it to wobble also.   Find a tac somewhere and make sure of the speed.   Too fast is as bad as too slow.

[apm]

I have spent whatever I made scrapping metal to buy parts.

. I don't have my drivers Lic . Not for a bad reason other than I can't bring myself to pay for what it takes to have insurance and all the other things it cost to drive.

Sorry I look at life as I am not going to be a slave to what I don't want to do. I drive my tractor to the junk yard. Slow but it gets me there. When it comes down to it I am cheap but I don't skimp on quality of what I have used to make this sawmill work I have just been patient.

I was blessed to have gotten this far without going into any debt and basically being self sufficent. I have eaten alot of deer meat and when gone I have eaten alot of balogna. well as you can see I can talk an ear off. I love working , but I love talking to people who share my same interest.


Not married, huh?  ;D

Greg

[Ron Wenrich]

Frank

You're right that the 9 gauge is thinner than the 8 gauge.  Saws are usually either an 8/9 gauge or a 7/8 gauge.  I run the 7/8 gauge.  Its 7 at the eye and 8 at the rim.  I think I'm right when I say they are thinner at the eye than on the rim.  That's why you need a little wider tooth.

Using 2 different sized shanks probably won't make that much of a difference, but it could cause spillage in some of the gullets and not in others.  Why take the risk?

Bruce

I don't know if I quite agree with figures.  If you're running a 56" saw, the saws circumference is 14.65 feet.  Your 10,000 ft/min would come out to 680 RPM. 

Most mills run a lot slower than that.  Saws running at that speed are a little harder to control.  Lots of reasons for wobble.  Not running at the speed the saw is hammered is one of them. 

[James P.]

Hi Ron  appreciate your advice. I do run my saw when testing it at 9,000 to 10,000 fpm . when I first ran my saw I shot for 630 rpm. I even called a Detroit dealer to see if running the engine at 1800 was ok cause it sounded like it was screaming.
My saw cab ,yes lol is right next to the engine. My saw has a slight dish to log side and is close to saw guide on log side. I may have many problems but I agree fixing the saw is where I need to start. As I stated in previous post I had no idea how bad my shanks were.
I had read about spillage and and with the standall type bits ,wondered how the shank could possibly hold chips if it was so much narrower than the bottom of the standall bit right below the cutting tooth. With at least the new shanks the width is so much closer maybe it will perform slightly better.
I asked about the 9's cause it would be an improvement over the old ones and I read at the saw docs post that sometimes new shanks can actually restore saws tension. Sometimes it doesn't and hammering is required.
I will see how it goes and adjust my guides a little better and see what happens. thanks for your knowledge I am glad you guys are willing to share

[Ron Wenrich]

I never liked standall bits.  Most guys in our area will run a standard bit with a winter shank and run that all year long.  If you are using standall bits, you shouldn't be running winter shanks.  They will make your gullet size smaller, and it will defeat the purpose of either the shank or the bit.

The standall bit or winter shank is designed to reduce the velocity of the sawdust when it comes into the gullet.  That helps reduce the spillage, especially in frozen wood. 

630 sounds like its a little fast for a handmill.  But, if your saw is hammered for that speed, then that's fine.  I thought my mill was running at 650 and the saws wouldn't work quite right.  When we put a tac on it, we found it to be running 690.  We got the saws hammered for that, and everything runs fine. 

I always set my saw guides on a running saw.  I keep things pretty close on the log side, but like to see some daylight on each side.  One guy told me it should be enough to put a piece of paper between the saw and the guide.  As long as its a split guide, it can be adjusted fairly well when its running.  You just have to be real careful, and you have to have good footing. 

[apm]

Ron, I've always understood that saws were thicker at the eye, thinner at the rim. Am I confused? That's partly why it's necessary to make sure your collars are cut on a slight taper to provide clearance as the saw gets thicker.  Hanging on the mandrel, most saws should be dead flat on the log side and the straightedge will rock on the eye on the board side, due to being thicker in the middle.

Greg

[bandmiller2]

James,detroit diesels always sound like their screaming.Usally 2100 rpm is about top ,1800 should be fine ,although I wouldn't want to run it much slower with the 56" wheel you will need all the power you can muster.Frank C.

[James P.]

thanks Bandmiller2 for all your replies. I agree even though the saw runs true and steady at the lower rpm when i tried to cut the hp wasn't there even though I only run the saw off the engine.  Hydraulics are electric. I am sitting only 2 feet from the motor . I have done a little sound proofing but I think once I get some plexiglass in it will be an improvement. I don't want total quiet cause I like to hear what things are doing. I do look forward to the day my saw is right and the only thing wrong is me at least then I know its not repairable. james

[Tripp]

James,

Enjoyed your story. Keep at it. It will all come together and you will be making lumber. I am fairly new to the circle mill game and I have learned that these mills need a lot of tlc to get them running right. It is both an art and a science to run build and restore a circle mill (or any combination of the above). Most of all have fun with both sides of the equation.

Tripp

[Ron Wenrich]

apm

I'm not sure anymore which is thicker.  I believe you're right.  Thicker on the eye. 

[bandmiller2]

James you could put that detroit on your neighbors property and still hear it.I agree with Ron W. on the standall bits to me they seem to pull harder but their very popular up here in the northeast, a friend gave me a couple of boxes so thats what i have in the saw now.You said you have a couple of outher blades are they any smaller in diameter?A 56 is a big blade and more fussy to keep right.With a detroit you must keep the RPM's up best done with the proper sized pulleys.For non commercial mills theirs no great advantage to higher saw speed,usally fewer problems in the 500 rpm range,of course smaller diameter blades should turn faster than large ones.Looking forward to picture of your mill,a skill I have yet to master.Frank C.

[James P.]

I may have to switch to a smaller blade in the future. I have a 54 and a 46 inch. the 54 is same gauge and style as 56 , both b 8  and the 46 is a style 3 10gauge. I tried both the smaller blades and didn't spend the time to find there best speed and also I didn't have new teeth in either. I just touched them up with a file and thought good enough. well that could have been part of 1 or both saws problems. I went ahead and bought the other 23 shanks that were 9 gauge and will try them and just keep my fingers crossed. I may donate them later to a needy sawyer. When I get the correct size.
Tripp
I was checking your mill out and your place in pics before I joined the forum , Gosh I spent hours looking at folks pictures. You have a really nice little sanctuary there. you have done a great job. I got started in woodworking ,only cause my first piece of equipment was a old 16 inch american tablesaw with flat belt and babbit bearings. still have her. keep up your good work and inspiring others.

[bandmiller2]

Some day James you will need to visit a saw doc take all three saws he can tell you which is best their not all created equal some are soft and don't hold tension well.It helps starting out to have a saw you know is right.How are you going to handle sawdust??Frank C.

[James P.]

I think thats a good idea, take all 3 and see whats good and worth get work done on it. I hope both my large saws are good. I was trying to identify the 54. It has the cooling holes in it. Inspectorwoody has one in his pictures. I was told it was atkins but not sure.
I am using just a blower. I have a large truck mount leaf vacuum blower I plan on using to replace the one I have now. It just a cast iron sturdavant I think is the spelling. has 6 in intake . Its pulling from about 8 feet away and I have a grate over the area that is under the mill. So not to large a junk of bark gets pulled in. It works pretty good when sawing. I would like to get an off bearer belt set up, but have settled for some conveyor rollers and wood on the husk frame.
Honestly , once I get into sawing and get more comfortable with my setup. I hope to learn how to hammer saws. When I was a teen I like silversmithing. Back when silver was 3.00 an OZ . I may need to check with the Amish and see where they go . They have several mills about 30 miles away in Dover De. They may be helpful maybe not. I am optomistic about it all. thanks for all the help.

[Bruce_A]

If you have time, find a govenor for that detroit.  It will make a tremendous difference.