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Red Pine growth potential

Started by Clark, December 03, 2010, 07:00:04 PM

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Clark

There is a lot of places a topic like this could go but I'll share my experiences (in particular one) that concern the ability of red pine (Pinus resinosa) to put on growth in diameter.  This isn't really concerned with the potential of the stand as a whole to produce volume but rather of individual trees.

As background most red pine in the lake states is managed for pulp in early thinnings and lumber and poles in later thinnings.  Site index typically ranges from 55-75 and industrial/economic rotations are about 50 years.  At final harvest most stands will have an average dbh of ~14".  Obviously this varies with site index, initial planting density and thinning regime.  If managed for poles, which is almost a given anymore, then an average dbh of greater than 14" is highly unlikely.  Naturally occurring stands fair even worse, the Silvics manual has an example of a 140 year old stand that is averaging 15.5" dbh!

In my recent work I have come across several red pine that were left after the previous clearcut 30-40 years ago.  These individuals took on the shape and form of open grown trees and put on serious diameter growth.  Pictured below is the one I took some measurements of, she's a beauty!


Obviously the bad fork in it probably helped the dbh and it certainly doesn't engender many foresters to the idea of leaving bigger trees simply because they are bigger.  I scratch my head wondering why it was left behind?  smiley_headscratch

This tree is 28" dbh (red pine over 20" dbh are far and few between around here) and as best I could tell it is between 105 and 115 years old.  I didn't measure the height but would be surprised if it went beyond 80'.  The growth rings were very consistent, it was adding 2.5" dbh every decade!  That is something you'll never see in plantations managed for poles.

When I find trees like this I have to wonder, does it have implications for plantations of red pine?  Is this an avenue of management that we simply haven't gone down?  Or maybe someone has and they are staying tight-lipped about it?  :D

Thoughts, comments, criticism, or experiences?

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

WDH

My experience is that most people thin too lightly.  Thinning more aggressively on pine down to the 60 Sq-Ft of basal area really jump starts a stand.  I am not sure if this works for red pine, but it sure does for the southern yellow pines. 

I bet most red pine stands go much too long between thinnings.  More aggressive and more frequent thinnings would keep them growing at more of an optimal rate.  Your subject tree had the chance to show what is possible.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Clark

WDH - I think you are 100% correct about red pine here.  Typically people wait about 5-15 years too long to thin it.  By then it is tall and skinny and ready to be blown over if it is thinned too much.  So they thin it lightly and often forget to thin it again later.  It's a mess that is difficult to correct.  Even the state managed lands, like the area the above tree came from, are often not thinned early enough.

It would be very interesting to see some red pine that was thinned real heavy, like you suggest, at the first thinning.  I think and have ample evidence to show that a 50 year rotation could produce respectable logs and not just poles.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

SwampDonkey

I think we plant it too tight myself. It should be planted 8 to 10 feet apart, the limbs grow fast and the crown fills in quick, so that's not an issue. The bottom limbs are starting to die by 12 -15 years. As far as the thinning of it, the economics of it is a bit of a burden. We have almost no market for pine pulp and it's a long haul for what we have or had for markets. Land owners planted it for poles on old fields up here and no other reason. Except some just like the look of it I guess. We've got 40 year old red pine that's 12-14" and we've got other plantations that have smaller diameters because of spacing obviously. Red pine rarely ever grew in pure stands up here and all the natural stuff grows on red clay soils. Where I live is dark to medium brown soils and well drained. Swamps here grow cedar and swamp hardwoods (red maple, elm, black ash, balm). Never was a red pine here until they were planted. One fellow has been convincing landowners to clear and chip 15-20 year old red pine plantations for biomass. He has figured out it's as heavy as maple and he gets tonnage. As to the landowner, I doubt they are getting much. I don't understand these owners, what I suspect is ownership has changed on these plantations. From my experience older gentlemen were planting, or having planted for them, 95% of the plantations. So it makes sense ownership has changed after 20 years. Most people around here won't thin beyond 30 foot pole size. And in red pine, much shorter (15 feet or less) because the buts get too big and the limbs are so darn heavy and bushy to get near with a brush saw. 99% of PCT is done by contractors. Many guys hate working in it. So a few owners prune if they have time and ambition, the latter usually runs out pretty quick sometimes. :D I have seen semi-commercial thinnings in older plantations on private, but a lot of damage and many forked trees left. Many times cherry picking comes to mind. Some places get a lot of ice damage and some places get hit hard by moose scrapes, they'll tear up pine. If your plantation gets a lot of damage, in red pine it's ruined. Irving, a large forest company, just flattened a red  pine plantation a year ago and the trees were probably 30 years old and maybe 35 feet tall, might be a few 40. Then replanted it to spruce I think. It was 300 acres+ by the look of it, it's a huge swath of land, looking from the highway. I don't have any red pine on my land. I did plant some white and the moose are doing what moose do to pine. :D

Well let me take that back about me not having any red pine. In 1992 I planted about 20 pine in the back yard. I planted them more as an experiment. I planted a couple in full sun and the rest between spruce that were becoming rotten in the but. They remained suppressed but living. The ones in the full sun are 25 feet tall with 8" dbh. The ones under suppression are not taller than 8 feet , might be a 10 foot one, and a couple or three might only be 6 feet,  and 2-3" maximum I think.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Jamie_C

A portion of our current harvest block is a red pine plantation ...  the dbh ranges from 3" - 9" and has roughly a 6 x 6 spacing ... most of it is about 40' tall. Unfortunately there is no market here other than pulpwood for it that i am aware of.

The site seems to have great growing potential as the rest of the harvest block is mostly a spruce / white pine plantation and has some fantastic growth on some trees.

nas

I am thinning some red pine for my neighbour that, judging by the growth rings, should have been thinned about 15-20 years ago.  It is all around 7-8"dbh and hasn't grown more than 1" dia in the last 10 years.  How much should be taken out and how quickly will it respond to thinning?  It is spaced around 6x6.

Nick
Better to sit in silence and have everyone think me a fool, than to open my mouth and remove all doubt - Napoleon.

Indecision is the key to flexibility.
2002 WM LT40HDG25
stihl 066
Husky 365
1 wife
6 Kids

SwampDonkey

I don't think I'd drop basal area below 18 m2/ha, that's 9 trees in a metric 2 m2/ha BAF angle gauge sweep.

1" wide gauge site with 35.36" string length, circular sweep at one point over a stick, 4.5 feet off the ground. Eye over the stick point is the pivot point. Use an old broom handle or a sapling. Count trees that fill the entire gauge site (between posts) or wider. Each tree is 2 m2/ha. String is tied through the round hole, knot on the back, cut off string beyond the 35.36" mark for a tail to hang onto. Hold marked string length (knot tied at 35.36" or black marker ink) up to eye when turning your circular sweep.

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Clark

Quote from: nas on December 06, 2010, 05:35:34 PM
I am thinning some red pine for my neighbour that, judging by the growth rings, should have been thinned about 15-20 years ago.  It is all around 7-8"dbh and hasn't grown more than 1" dia in the last 10 years.  How much should be taken out and how quickly will it respond to thinning?  It is spaced around 6x6.

Nick

How tall are they?  The taller and lankier they are the more careful you have to be when thinning them the first time.  Unfortunately for you that 6x6 spacing is going to make thinning them well very difficult. 

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

SwampDonkey

You'll have to remove an entire row once in awhile and thin between. That darn red pine is heavy. Reads like 35-40 foot stuff in those diameters, unless many are too suppressed. There are always a few expressing dominance when thinning treatments get missed (or the timing) no matter how tight the trees are. You'll probably have to leave a few scraggly ones to maintain wind firmness in there along with the good ones.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

nas

The height is around 45-50'.  There are some openings already because of rocky areas and on the edges of these you can really see the growth potential if they had been thinned earlier.  They are around 11-12" dbh.  I started with a single row down the middle, and I can easily get 2-3 rows in from that without doing much damage, so I will try every 5th or 6th row and see how it goes.  It is sort of a spare time thing, or if I need some cheap, small framing lumber.  The nice thing is that it is all nice and straight, and cuts easily, so it doesn't take long to cut a whack of lumber even though the logs are small diameter.

Nick
Better to sit in silence and have everyone think me a fool, than to open my mouth and remove all doubt - Napoleon.

Indecision is the key to flexibility.
2002 WM LT40HDG25
stihl 066
Husky 365
1 wife
6 Kids

WDH

Pine should be thinned before the live crown ratio (height of the live crown divided by the total tree height) falls below 30%.  Closer to 40% is ideal.  Needles grow wood.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

barbender

A lot of red pine plantations around here were planted realloy tight, and then never thinned. I was just looking at a small state sale, first entrance pine thin. It is so thick I don't know how I would even get a tree to hit the ground hand felling. Just eyeballing these things, some are up to 9"dbh, others are about 3 1/2"dbh, all about the same height- around 40'. It's cheap wood, but I don't think I need the headache. Apparently, niether does anyone else as this is a re-offer, it didn't sell a the last auction. They might have to give it away ::)
Too many irons in the fire

Gary_C

Barbender, that sounds like my bread and butter type of job and for the past year or so I have done a bunch of those jobs. Take one row and thin the two rows alongside. Don't need to fell any trees, just process them down. Makes messy piles for the forwarder operator though. In fact the trees that do fall are more trouble than the ones that don't.

Most of the DNR foresters have learned to not mark those jobs. Just leave them as logger select and a target basal area. I usually just take one row and space out the remainder to at least ten feet between trees. That will usually get the stand down to a 9 or 10 on their gauge. Most of those start around 140 BA or above.

As far as the blowdown problem after thinning, it's just a crapshoot regardless of when you thin. If you happen to get very strong winds in the year or two after thinning, your are going to get some blowdown.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

SwampDonkey

Although we do get high winds at times in these parts they are not all that severe very often. Many times, even a 20 mile an hour wind will uproot or break week suppressed trees that have been opened up. You don't have to just look at plantations, just look at a high graded woodlot. It's hard to get folks to take out the junk first, they take the best milkers most times. If you have to make payments on equipment, truck and house, you have to make every cut bring in money unless costs are offset in some way. We do not subsidize tree harvests on private woodlot stands with government incentives, only establishment silviculture like planting and PCT. Some marketing boards put money in the pot from wood sales for semi and commercial thinnings. Very small volumes of the work though and only 0.5 % of wood sales. To put that figure in perspective however, the boards only take about 2.2 % levy to run their operations. Historically, most boards cut $10 M - $20 M in annual sales from woodlots, depending on their management area (size). Most boards are below their annual AAC, and for sure now with markets off. It's hard to get the majority of owners to thin when they aren't depending on it for their livelihood anymore and most couldn't if they wanted to from small operations and high equipment cost, plus the trucking. Everything costs a lot, I don't care if it's just a tractor. You've got to cut a lot of wood to justify it.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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