1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting

[Jeff]

I drove a tooth completely into the palm of my hand while changing the teeth on the middle blade of a vertical edger. The pin broke when putting the tooth in and my hand slammed into the fixed top blade. It could only go so far in, because it hit the bend in the tooth. It nickef the median nerve, but didnt sever it, so motion eventally came back two weeks later to my fore and middle fingers.

[moodnacreek]

I currently have the privilege of advising a young man who is setting up a w.w. 2 era Turner pony sawmill. It has a ball bearing mandrel  that looks good as do the collars. He has tried to cut with it but that is a long ways off. There is a wobble in the saw and a big wooden pully that is way out of balance. The feed is very jumpy and hard to control. He is going to change it to vee belt drive as I have given him a complete set of shives and belts. Also sold him an old Cat D13000 power unit.     The new owner of an old mill wants to see it saw wood. You tell them to fix this that and the other thing and the mill still won't go. But the only way is to fix all the things that could be the problem to finally get it to saw. This is going to be a long process . I have set up 3 mills in my time and made many mistakes. All of them where old junk and often I had very little money. Had mandrels made that wouldn't work and saws hammered that wouldn't run. For years I only had one saw, know I have 4 that all run good. It didn't happen over night.

[donbj]

Also sold him an old Cat D13000 power unit.

I worked for a Wildlife Conservation organization as Field Operations Manager mid 90's to mid 2000's and we had two D13000 Cat power units each driving vertical lift water pumps hooked up with large angle drives on top of the pumps. Each pump discharged 25,000 gpm US, 36" discharge pipe. They ran at 1200 rpm. They were installed in the 50's When we dismantled the set up in the late 90's there was an old timer that was all over them when he found out we were getting rid of them.
They were replaced in the early 70's with new electric driven units of the same output at a different location. Kinda off topic but some memories. 

[jemmy]

Thank you Ron, the collars are the same size, can they come off with out a mass amount of effort like torches, like how everything seems to bolt up for the most part? Is it a part that is cable of being swapped, similar to a blade. tooth or nut? I think I need to re-read CIRCULAR SAWMILLS AND THEIR EFFICIENT OPERATION and even my own posts taking meticulous notes, and keep doing more research on the topic of setting a mill not trying to miss any little detail. I will follow your advice and replace the teeth before I try and do some cutting. I watched a few youtube videos and have pulled and set back a few teeth with out any mishaps so far. I hope I can keep that up. I am gonna get a replacement head for the Andrus hand file for 17$ and power it up with a drill. I cant swallow a brand new jockey grinder quite yet. Its worth a try compared to the 700+ jockey quite yet. I know I;m gonna get one but I would like to roll the dice with this and learning how to hand file. Any brand suggestions for a nice bastard file?  

I am trying to get everything as tuned as I can, I might even try and get a gauge for measuring the carts tolerances to the knees as it passes through the saw. The more I am seeing the more I am realizing that everything is going to need to be as tight as possible. My biggest issue that has been plaguing me is the levelness of the entire structure. I've been spinning my wheels, and I finally bit the bullet and went spent the minimal amount of a 100$ on bits, converters, and levels to bust the holes in the H-beam and level everything. I hope for the love of all that is good that it will all sit level. I've been tussling with this issue for well over 20hrs. I hope I can set the anchor bolts in 6hrs and then level everything in 4-8hrs. There's been goofy stuff going on and I hope the addition of 12 anchor bolts can allow me to fine tune the main housing. If I can get everything to sit level, replace my teeth, and check, recheck, then check again my knee to blade tolerance over and over so I know the track and cart are running as true as possible.


I set a pretty secure post for my new accelerator set point and it is in a prime spot  to act as a corner post to start a screen/wall. I want to build a shield for me to stand behind. I could use this as my corner post. I think that's a project I might do out of some of the thick white oak I cut and get some ballistic glass, I could even curve it over to I can lean over and watch the blade. I also thought about getting a ballistics helmet to stair down the blade. I also think a portable shield would be a great option as well. I feel like any combination of these would be great, I can also mount a go-pro to watch the cut and see how the blade is tracking through the log. I don't fancy looking down the blade unless I'm setting up the guides or seeing how its running without a piece of wood anywhere near.

Side note my plate did not leave heavy metal deposit on the log like I thought. I was mistaken, it was burnt wood, there's some evidence of rub on the plate I believe but nothing as sever like I thought it was. Well I hope I can tune everything (a lot not mentioned in this post) and continue to amass enough knowledge and experience to make this thing run somewhat soon. We shall see, I am actively looking for a band mill though. I have waited too long on this project to postpone any further.

In terms of any ill will on my part I just want to apologize, I'm sorry. I never mean any ill will. I never mean to discount your guys knowledge or thousands of hours of experience. I would be a ball lost in the high grass with out this place I appreciate this platform and the wisdom that is exchanged freely. I plan on giving back, and I will have video of hundreds of hours that I have spent on this project condensed down to semi short videos. But that will take a very long time and I have many other fish frying. I have probably spent 500 hours just to this point, that is a conservative estimation, its nothing compared to the thousands of hours spent by the elders of this community. I just have to look at it from an economical stand point. And the 50-100hrs I have spent reading and posting to this forum is a substantial sum, I did not mean to demean your experience, it was more a tally of my own exploits and for me it weighs to spends hundreds of hours in research, I love it I hope this is evident, it just has its costs. I think I am a pretty patient man. Almost to a fault. Objectively, I should have bought a cheap band mill 4 years ago. It would have turned enough lumber for many projects and wouldve turned itself in value a few times. Thats my mistake to bear, along with a few other sickening mistakes that slipped through the cracks and smacked me with big time realizations. Do not get me wrong, I am doing pretty good, I have an essential full time construction job, in school full time pulling a 4.0, trying to run a farm with out a sawmill, my biggest problem has been 100k+ in mistakes in 4 years or so. Who knows how much school has cost me as well. These are some of my considerations and stuff I find interesting to contemplate. I like this mill but I need reliability and something that is gonna work now. I will not be giving up on the circle mill. I just need a mill now, its been 3 years, whats to say it wont be another 1-2 before it runs correctly, and I could have cut enough lumber to pay for itself and a consultant to come make this saw run. Im gonna try everything mentioned in this forum and make one more solid attempt, then I think I will be making a move on a band mill. Level EVERYTHING (20hrs max), new teeth, knee tracking to the blade, other little tie up issues, test run, if it works no need for a band mill, look through if not completely re-read CSTEO but if that fails I think I gotta make some move on a band mill.

[Ron Wenrich]

A drill uses a grinding wheel, not the file pad that the hand Andrus uses.  I believe that you'll end up going too fast with the drill and the pad will fly apart.  No brand suggestion on files, but try to get US made.  The US made stuff has always held up better, and is actually cheaper in the long run.  I bought mine from the sawmill supply guy.  Collars on the mandrel are pressed on.  Don't try to take it off.  You'll ruin it, especially with a torch.  If it needs turned, find someone to turn it on the mill.  Expensive, but easier than taking the mandrel to the shop.  

Level and straight.  You should either run a string line or a laser down your guide track, and it should be straight and perpendicular to the husk.  Don't overthink it.  My first mill, I built a cinder block wall on 2 sides of the pit.  On top, we put some heavy blocking (8x10, I think) that ran the length of the wall.  That was used to tie the husk and track together.  At the track, I cut notches in it for the track to lay.  I used shims to set the track in place.  That was it, and it stayed in place until we replaced the mill with an automatic.  For the remaining track, I built cinder block piers every 10' and attached a 4x6 to the top where the track joined.  Notched and shimmed those.  On the log end, the piers were every 5'.  It stayed level and straight.  We sawed every day on that set up.  

For a guard, I had a piece of reinforced glass in a frame.  I hung it on chains from a ceiling joist so it could move.  I made sure it couldn't hit the saw.  That way, if something hits it, it can move.  For the most part, I sawed on hand mills without one, but it is another level of safety.

I think most of your problem is in setting a satisfactory lead and dealing with poor teeth.  If you're burning going through wood, you're rubbing your saw.  Figure out why you're rubbing the saw.  Make a checklist and go from there.  Do the easy things first.  RPM is right, teeth are right, saw guides set right, track set straight, lead set.  I went to one mill where they couldn't figure out what was wrong.  They had the lead set backwards.  

[jemmy]

The collar will have to do unless I know I could deal with it, but I could pull the arbor with out too much work now that I think about it. That might be the heavier tactics than what is needed to make this saw run, that is a different stage of development. Not apposed, but I want to eliminate the other problems first. 

Can I run a 56" with a smaller collar? The previous owner claims this set up worked. 

I believe RPMS were pretty good. I would need a third set of hands to test the rpms, look at the video for an audio q, or I could try and rig up a digital one of some form, the laser one allowed me to dial everything in right in terms of RPMS while not cutting. But I was hands on deck and watching the blade as I cut.  

What are your thoughts on building a tank of a shield? Like bullet proof glass and 4" thick W/O? I can buy a lot of bullet proof glass for 150$, and for a little bit of effort I could have one heck of a shield. I could build things on hinges so it could swing out of the way, or have a track system, or just build something I can move with the bobcat. But I would like it if it could be secured offering me a tank like sheltering. I dont have a way to hang anything either. I could potentially build something that would extend over and hang. There's a lot of different styles it could be executed. That would give me a whole lot of confidence and for not much money or effort. 

I believe the guide track to be pretty straight, for the entire primary track it is on its original welds from when it was secured to the main I-beam. I step back and look down it and it looks pretty gosh darn straight, especially when compared to the other track. I also used a tile laser and a few hours of trying to get it just right to see how straight the guide track is and I thought it was perfect. I could be wrong and I saw there are better tactics for seeing the deviation in the knees to the saw, like a piece of flat metal and scroll meter. I saw it in a youtube video from a university that was showing tactics on how to problem shoot a mill. Pretty nifty, I just have to push my cart to get these readings. I did that a lot with a piece of wood and had a deviation of 1/16" across three knees spanning I believe 12-14ft to the same tooth front and back of the saw, each of them read out correctly to lead as well. I hope that will suffice. 

I hope for the love of all that is good that my lead is set correctly. Its set to an 1/8th right now....... I want to check those bolts/nuts securing it again, can I use amsoil synthetic blue grease in those bearings on the arbor? I put a half a tube in between two main zerks on the main arbor bearings, I couldnt see any grease come out, should I put in more? This is ok right? Im not going to mess anything up by trying to shove too much grease into the any joint that has a zerk fitting right?????????? After the dishing deal with the shanks and blade, things have me on edge a bit more than often.

Poor teeth are definitely I believe to be a current issue. When I am changing out teeth what are your guys thoughts of using never seas rather than/in conjunction with oil? Do you use the oil to stop rusting, and prevent the two faces from welding together? I use never seas on a whole lot of things on my vehicle with a lot of success. But I completely understanding sticking to certain tried and true tactics. Never seas could add a little bit of thickness or something I have no idea, but I could see something causing an issue, its the plate we are talking about here. Also centering shanks? I noticed all the shanks are sticking opposite of the log side, an the blade rubbed on the log side of the blade. Dont know if that is a dead give away for something or not. 

[luap]

I am glad to hear your blade rub was burnt wood. I couldn't wrap my brain around a saw plate transferring metal unless something catastrophic happened. Don' play around with a torch on your saw hub. I had a new mandrel made and the fit between the hub and the shaft was an interference fit. They used a fifty ton press to force the hub cold(no heat) onto the shaft. The whole assembly was mounted in a lathe and the collar machined into the hub. The outer collar should be loose once the outer nut is off. No different than your home tablesaw.
    Never seize is an anti corrosion inhibitor-not a lubricant. and a lubricant is what you need when you seat the shanks. Just have a small container of motor oil handy and dip the shank in the oil as you insert them. Never seize is great for nuts and bolts applications.
    Greasing bearings until you see excess grease come out typically does no harm. Extra grease will continue to come out as the shaft gets up to speed and just makes a sawdust attractant. If your mill is exposed to the weather the extra grease doesn't hurt. If you have ever popped the seal off a factory sealed bearing. you would think it didn't have enough grease.

[Ron Wenrich]

The bearings are closed bearings.  You won't see grease come out.  You can overload the grease, and that will cause heat.  You only need to put a couple pumps in about once a month.  

You're overthinking changing teeth.  What I always did was spray the shanks down with a penetrating oil like Blue Creeper.  Just spin the saw by hand and spray it.  That should loosen up your shank, and be enough oil to put it back in.  As long as you seat the shank, it shouldn't pop out unless it is really worn out.  Even those can be corrected with a peen hammer.  No need to smear anything else into the sockets.

You can build a shield out of bullet proof.  I had that on my cab when I was sawing on an automatic mill.  But, I was right on top of the saw.  Reinforced is cheaper and works as well.  The only time that the saw sends stuff back is when something falls on top of it.  I can only think of it happening once or twice in all the millions of feet I sawed on a hand mill.  There are things you need to watch.  One is at the board splitter.  You don't want a piece to go behind it.  That only happens on your slab cut where you aren't cutting into the log right away.  A lot depends on the style of board splitter and whether its bent or not.  The other things you need to make sure of is that the dogs are back far enough not to hit the saw.  

[moodnacreek]

Well there went that post. Every time I get long winded, poof!

[Don P]

Yeah, I've started right clicking, click "select all", then click "copy". I have to try again about 1/4 of the time, I thought it was at my end, and it probably is. If it eats the post I just have to right click and click "paste" to try again.

The video you were watching Jemmy was Casey Creamer with an NCSU wood doc I believe. Casey has a very good book called "Sawmiller's Guide to Troubleshooting"

I was going to say that in there he says to not overgrease for the reasons Ron beat me to. But do grab a copy of that book, I've used it more than Lundsford probably.

[jemmy]

Rescue Ron, its got quite the sound to it. Thanks again Ron. 

I swear everything is a landmine........... one misstep.... boom Im just trying to be careful so I can minimize risk and lack of success everywhere. It seems like I touch it and things seem to go backwards. Prime example is the grease. I hope it doesnt overheat/ruin that bearing/mess with the plate now (on the list of things to check before running)....... As for changing teeth I just noticed the shanks are coming out to one side, and I never realized that before, and I am pretty confident I can change teeth, I just got emailed the part break down for the Andrus sharpener, so that will be on its way, if there is somewhere I can just buy a guage I would prefer that, I bet I could get it right but I would rather try and buy. But I dont know if that is custom to my plate, but I would think it shouldnt matter. 

Tonight's goal is to get as many (10-14) anchor bolts set and hopefully be in a good spot to make a good faith effort to level every aspect of the mill. Well Before I lose anymore sunlight, I gotta cut my thoughts short and get out there. Time to have some fun in the sun and metal slivers. 

Thanks to everyone else that is contributing to this thread. Maybe it will be a book in and of itself.... 

[moodnacreek]

Well, here I go again. Can't help but disagree with 2 good members. The bearing next to the saw cannot be over greased, unless you only saw for an hour a day. Ball bearings will take extra grease better than roller bearings but grease makes heat and it well swell the center of the saw.  For a long time I searched for a grease that would run cooler in my saw bearing. The lubracation people thought I was nuts [I already knew that]. One day I ripped the seals out of a new Timkin/ Fafner sealed ball bearing and found it full of blue grease. This is a no no but buy using special grease it can be done. They sell that grease under their name, very expensive.  Then by luck I found that Harry Schell Sawmill recommended lubraplate cold weather grease for sawmill arbors and that is what I use. By being careful not to over do it I ended my warm saw problems.

[moodnacreek]

Page 2. I once had a sawmill mandrel made and they pressed the hub on. That lasted about 5 min. The next one Lane made and they heat a new cast iron hub [fixed collar] in an oven before they press it on. They also had a press all set up the straighten the mandrel before they cut the collars. I have 1/2 thousand wobble and this mandrel has held up.  I tried to find out the interference fit but no luck.     This is why I tell people to find a sawmill machine shop. I had an edger shaft made wrong to. I always learn the hard way.

[moodnacreek]

Yeah, I've started right clicking, click "select all", then click "copy". I have to try again about 1/4 of the time, I thought it was at my end, and it probably is. If it eats the post I just have to right click and click "paste" to try again.

The video you were watching Jemmy was Casey Creamer with an NCSU wood doc I believe. Casey has a very good book called "Sawmiller's Guide to Troubleshooting"

I was going to say that in there he says to not overgrease for the reasons Ron beat me to. But do grab a copy of that book, I've used it more than Lundsford probably.

To me the Lundsford book is much better.  If I start on Creamer I well get kicked out for sure.

[luap]

I agree with Ron and moodacreek on the over greasing causing heat. The difference in the bearings is the type of seals. Some are designed to let the excess purge which also will purge any moisture and contaniments. Some bearing housings have a small plug to remove when greasing to allow excess to purge without overgreasing. As Ron said just give a couple pumps and move on. When my mandrel was made  they used 4140 alloy which I don't know if it was necessary but that's what they used and why it wasn't heated when assembled. The hub and the shaft were turned at the same time so it all ran true at that time and I have never had any reason to suspect it to check it since. I could see why a cast hub could be heated to install. At work we routinely figured .002" press fit per inch dia of shaft for drive coupling but a saw hub has more force on it than a motor coupling.

[moodnacreek]

The mandrel bearings on my mill are spherical roller with exclusion seals that let grease out, over time. Over grease them and you won't saw for long. They are also, 2 of them expansion type but this is not necessary. The seals of this type are non contact because rubbing seals cause heat.  What taught me the most about all of this was the point and click thermometer. As your saw runs you can monitor the bearing warm up and follow it into the hub and then the saw itself. In my case a 5 degree difference from the center to the rim [of saw] is too much.