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Just the Facts, the Crown virus.

Started by doc henderson, March 12, 2020, 09:23:18 AM

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SwampDonkey

Quote from: Southside on October 22, 2021, 09:37:21 AM
removed the needle and there was a drop of blood.
Prick you're finger and see if you don't draw blood. A little blood on the surface does not mean you pricked a vessel. But drawing blood when aspirating sure does. Got it now? :D Nicking a vessel on the way in isn't the same as injection into when the tip is past the vessel. I bet you're odds are quite different.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Southside

Seeing blood on the needle tip and just in the 18g hole isn't a regular occurrence, but needles move when you pull on the plunger, muscles flinch, things happen. 

My point is the jab clearly has a safety issue if it's that risky.
Franklin buncher and skidder
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SwampDonkey

My point is, jab and squirt has certain risk for this condition, but it is not high. But why not do it properly to reduce the risk? All the other stuff you can not control. You can control how you administer. You did your best. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Southside

Well there are the doccumented cases here where folks have gone in for a flu shot and ended up getting a Covid jab instead, even kids.  Guess that's no big deal.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

kantuckid

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on October 07, 2021, 10:01:55 AM
  My wife and I went and got our 3rd phizer booster shot yesterday at our local health dept. Other than a sore arm when I'd roll over on it it I'd never know I'd had it.
I got an email today from our Morehead, KY, regional hospital where wife & I got moderna shots back in early spring. I called and was told they'd jumped the gun as puter system wasn't ready yet (they need this weekend when it getting less use to get it ready) for the next onslaught of booster seniors. It turned into a personal conversation with the lady who said she was holding off, which is where my mindset is right now. We both did not hold off on the first two shots but things are changed now as boosters remain in discussion by experts. The main point I get from my readings are lack of enough research as yet.  
I've tried to stay abreast of boosters, r.e., crossover advantages, dis-advantages and lenght of interval vs. age.  Between the politics and lack of research I think I'll hold off for time being. Business Insider has an article todays that touches on only some of the worlds vaccination research, some of which has been in the UK. Many medical professionals are saying that we badly need more research, especially in the USA.
With respect to what information I can read it' remains bothersome for me and many others that some of the experts left the panels for reasons mostly left to imagination. Throw in the teachers unions behind the back CDC contacts and it gets me asking for more and better straight forward research that we lack on boosters. Even government activities toward various vaccine mfg.'s makes for some concerns toward my own choices. Too bad it's that way.
Many USA employers are at wits end on federal vaccination mandates. Larger employers such as airlines make the news but smaller ones don't yet they comprise many of our workers.  One of our sons is responsible for over 400 engineering employee's in a company that like most in construction, depends heavily on federal funding. If his company drops them they lose either way as these are not easy to replace people plus the business is highly dependent on federal jobs. His main location being next door to the Oak Ridge, TN nuclear location and own personal expertise as a nuclear engineer is but one small e.g. of how badly his company will be affected by the mandates.
 His internal data tells him he must fire ~ 90 people, most being highly trained, experienced engineers in early December. He is restricted to shift employees geographically because many work on multiple projects at various locations based on their specialties. Nothing like getting canned right before the holidays huh? 
I hope I've (mostly) avoided the politics and remained factual here, leaving others to their own conclusions.    
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

kantuckid

Quote from: SwampDonkey on October 22, 2021, 11:30:35 AM
My point is, jab and squirt has certain risk for this condition, but it is not high. But why not do it properly to reduce the risk? All the other stuff you can not control. You can control how you administer. You did your best. ;)
As one who has recently had a shoulder cortisone injection, I read recently that some people feel that an improperly administered such injection can actually cause certain shoulder damage issues. My medical training all (except Army first aid) comes from google so it's above my head. I also saw a recent article on air injections causing issues-the army shot me cross ways one time and cut my upper arm and none went in either... 
I've seen a billion covid vaccine injections on TV news-I think I could do it OK myself?  :D Plus I inject my own allergy serum. 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Paul_H

I understand why the hesitation when the information we receive has been muddied or skewed. Even Dr Fauci has not been honest as many suspected. It seems the ones responsible for this relatively benign virus (compared to what it could have been) have managed to deflect the blame to those that make different personal choices. I heard this morning that they are playing with fire in the Wuhan lab and a 50% death rate could have happened instead of the 1%.

So the experts have sometimes been less than factual

NIH Admits to Funding Gain-of-Function Research in Wuhan, Says EcoHealth Violated Reporting Requirements

QuoteA top NIH official admitted in a Wednesday letter that U.S. taxpayers funded gain-of-function research on bat coronaviruses in Wuhan and revealed that EcoHealth Alliance, the U.S. non-profit that funneled NIH money to the Wuhan Institute of Virology, was not transparent about the work it was doing.

Fool me once,shame on you,fool me twice shame on me
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Southside

CDC director announced today that the US may change the definition of "fully vaccinated". 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Southside on October 22, 2021, 02:02:26 PM
Well there are the doccumented cases here where folks have gone in for a flu shot and ended up getting a Covid jab instead, even kids.  Guess that's no big deal.  
That's very troubling.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

doctorb

Again, we settle in to extreme positions where the truth may lie in the grey area in between.  My opinion is that there is some blood stream injection with every IM shot.  These are hollow bore needles that injure tissue (skin, sub-Q, muscle) based upon needle diameter.  Veins are not just one thing or one size.  There are many different diameter veins and smaller veinules.  I would be shocked if these were not injured with every IM injection.   Now, if injection into a larger diameter vein is the cause of complications, then investigations need to take place and the method of injection improved.  Muscle has a great blood supply and I've seen it bleed for my entire career.   Blood at the tip of an IM injection means nothing, IMO.  But I find it hard to believe that some vein or veinules are not injured with every one, and that some of the injection doesn't end up directly in the bloodstream on all of us.  If this is the culprit it will undoubtedly be a matter of degree.  This is not a black and white issue.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Gary_C

The question of aspiration is not new nor settled. Here is the latest report on the subject and it is from 2017.
Aspiration in injections: should we continue or abandon the practice?

Conclusion
There is a shortage of consistent recommendations regarding aspiration before injection in published literature, regulatory guidelines, and medical and nursing school curricula. There is also no central and easily accessible place where one can access and review information and guidelines regarding the procedure. It is therefore important to bring all the evidence, published and otherwise, to the forefront for clinicians, researchers, regulatory bodies and device manufacturers so that they can make an informed decision. Based on our findings, the need for aspiration prior to administering an injection is dependent upon multiple factors. Systemic adverse effects profile and mode of delivery (IV vs IM and SC) of drugs plays a significant role in the decision to aspirate or not to aspirate. There is ample evidence that suggests that aspiration may not be required for IM and SC injections, while for IV injections the systemic side effects of the drug should be considered when aspirating before any injection.

The problem is the study is old (before mRNA vaccines) although it does say the "side effects of the drug being considered." 

The widespread use of auto-disable (AD) syringes – most of which are not designed to aspirate has not been linked to adverse effects due to the elimination of the aspiration procedure prior to injection of vaccines 7. This finding has intensified the debate and raised doubts over the necessity of aspiration in non-vaccine medication administration as well.

There is one question brought up from that study. What are AD syringes?
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Gary_C

Here is a brief study from August 2021. 
Intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine can induce acute myopericarditis in mouse model

Conclusions
This study provided in-vivo evidence that inadvertent intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA-vaccines may induce myopericarditis. Brief withdrawal of syringe plunger to exclude blood aspiration may be one possible way to reduce such risk.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

SwampDonkey

It also seems one sign that you had it in a major blood vessel is a sudden bad taste in your mouth within seconds or a minute. Dr Campbell did an interview with another young man in hospital after Kyles video and they both experienced this taste, they describe it metallic like. For something to be that quick it has to be in the bloodstream or else it is some sort of quick reaction to it.

Lets not confuse passing through a vein or injuring it on the way in, with the tip being in one and injecting into it. That is not the same thing. It is believed that tiny amounts getting in versus the full load has different results.

Of course this is hypothesis and not yet proven, but is looking very likely. But how do you study this and be ethical about it? You can not know the unknown, like the path of that needle and what it struck going in when it is not visible inside your flesh. ;) Meanwhile these folks are still being written off? It's time to get a grip. It is not an extreme position in any way. It is called drawing attention to this injury and to figure it out and not sitting around silent.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Texas Ranger

Just out of curiosity, or cussedness, I looked up the anatomy of the blood system in the human shoulder.  The meaty portion of the upper shoulder where shots are given has fine blood vessels while the major vessels are ventral.  To hit a major vessel the  venipuncture dude, or dudette :o,   would have to be totally inept. What this has to do with the price of eggs, is beyond me, other than I have not had my coffee as of yet.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

doc henderson

never heard of any of this.  i suppose it is possible.  the places we give IM shots, are area of large mucsle mass.  so no large vein but certaily needs many small vessels to get blood too and from the cells.  many drugs can be given IM or IV, and we adjust the rate of push and dose of medication.  medications are ultimately absorbed into the blood stream anyway.   an IM shot is given usually to avoid having to start an IV, or in folks that cannot have an IV started.  for immunizations, you do want the antigen to be processes for the best immunoogenisis.  the biggest intuitive problem IV would be it it cleared so fast the body does not have time to react to it.  every nurse I have seen give an IM shot, aspirates first to make sure it is not in a vein, since the dose may be 2.5 x bigger IM.  an IM drug does get into the system slower and therefore lasts longer for things like pain and sedation meds.  I will watch the video when I can, but this sounds suspect.  some areas of the body are like filters, like the liver, spleen, and kidneys.  anything IV should past through the hearts like the pump it is.  the lungs can trap thing from the blood as the capillaries get small.  If we flush an IV with saline, you can tast salt as it perfuses the tongue, but that is 3 to 5 CCs.  even if the med gives a bad taste, not sure how that is inked to heart inflamation.  we will see.  it is our body reacting to the vaccine or viral particles that makes the inflamation, and there are a thousand of these reactions at any given time that is modulated by the body.  hopefully time will sort this out.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

repmma

"Trust the science."

How long did J&J bury their Baby Powder?  No big deal... FDA was all over it  ::).  Just like all the other recalls, see articles talking about research tying chemicals in food containers and other plastics to 100k deaths a year, never mind its been approved since 1965... 

Yet some people wonder how others are opposed to the "mandate".  
Thomas 8020, Timberjack 225C, Ford 5030 with Norse 450 winch, stihl saws and 142 acres to manage.

doc henderson

no question the inflamation spawned by the vaccine and to a greater extent the viral infection causes inflamation, and that is what causes the myocarditis (inflamation of the heart muscle) but to jump to an IV dose of a viaccine causing it to be more common is a jump.  this is not a new diagnosis and has been associated with post viral syndromes for years.  as i said, this will be figured out over time, and we still think that getting vaccine is safer than getting the virus without a vaccine.  looks like we will all get the virus eventually as you still can get it despite the vaccine.  I got the flu shot yesterday.  I will wait to get my covid booster a few weeks.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

doc henderson

I am opposed to mandates as well.  it is not like the vaccine has prevented disease, but hopefully lessons the severity.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

SwampDonkey

In Kyle's case, it didn't help that his first doctor said he never heard of it and that he must be psychotic (with no evidence) to suggest it. He had to go to a heart specialist to get his diagnosis (myocarditis) in a different hospital. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Quote from: doc henderson on October 23, 2021, 07:37:27 AMevery nurse I have seen give an IM shot, aspirates first to make sure it is not in a vein, since the dose may be 2.5 x bigger IM.
There is lots of video evidence of this vaccine shot where it is not aspirated. Beyond that, it's not mandated in many countries. In China and Taiwan apparently it is mandated, however hard that is to swallow.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

doctorb

TR - you are correct.  There are no large bore named veins within the deltoid muscle.  The Cephalic vein is within the superficial aspect of the muscle, and is very anterior to where the shot is given (lateral). It may be that venous injection into the cephalic vein could occur if: 1) the injector penetrates in the absolute incorrect anterior portion of the shoulder and 2) the patient has such a significant adipose tissue layer under the skin that the needle only reaches slightly into the deltoid muscle.  Barring those possibilities in concert, hard to see the needle reaching a large bore vein.  I have operated around and through the deltoid hundreds and hundreds of times, I have never seen an identifiable vein within the muscle, excepting the superficial cephalic vein, in any of those dissections.  We are all different, so who knows.  It is, however, worth further study.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

SwampDonkey

Oh I think you could hit something, it's rare, but yeah.



"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

doc henderson

nurses spend days with supervision and testing on how to give shots.  Docs, not so much.  see one, do one, teach one.  It is not rocket science, and is mostly to be able to follow Doc orders so the dose and onset are as expected.  we will see.  when I see a nurse give a shot, I always wonder why it takes them so long. i am a conceptual guy and try to understand the body and how it works.  i have no idea how this could make a difference, but this sounds like one of those deals.  feel free to ask your nurse to aspirate, and she would have prob. anyway.  you are jabbing a needle into an unseen area.  they used to give shots in the glut (why kids hate needles so much) and thought it may increase sterile abscess more.  still hardly ever.  If your nurse rolls her eyes at you, let it go.  if you poke the lateral aspect of the deltoid, there is nothing there.  
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

barbender

One time at the kids' 4-H meeting, someone gave a demonstration on giving shots to livestock. They used an orange for the test subject😂. After that, whenever one of our dogs would need to go in for shots, I would say, "just have Moriah do it, she knows how!" My other daughter would roll her eyes and say, "Daaaad, she gave a shot to an orange!"😂😂 That's all I can add to this conversation 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️😊
Too many irons in the fire

scsmith42

I had my booster (third Pfizer) shot last Monday.  No side effects other than a sore shoulder for a few days.

My second shot left me pretty tired the second day after.
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