Shop Lighting

Ianab · September 22, 2022, 05:17:00 PM

Quote from: Tom K on September 22, 2022, 12:14:12 PMYeah, I find it amusing that a light is rated for 100,000 hours. That's 11 years at 24hrs a day, there has to be a whole lot of "theoretical" in that testing.

That's basically a theoretical max, based on the known way that the silicon in the LED chip degrades over time. The light output generally drops off over time until the LED eventualy becomes useless. This is greatly affected by operating temperature and the amount of current that's pushed through. Cheaper LED lamps tend to push the envelope a little, driving less LED chips at higher current to save cost. This lowers the efficiency a bit, and soon kills the LEDs. Better lamps run less current per chip, which improves the efficiency and extends the life, but of course costs more as they use more individual LEDS.

We think nothing of a LED that's a standby lamp for the TV lasing for 10 years. That's because it's a small low current LED, not getting hot and bothered, so there is no reason a LED can't last for 10 years, but of course back in the real world you can get corrosion, vibration, thermal cycling or a single component failing. If the lamp was made by the lowest bidder, then corners were probably cut.

This link explains "colour temp" which is a measure of how "Red" ir "Blue" the light source is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Color_temperature_scale

Regular "daylight" is 5-6,500 K, depending on the time of day and weather. Candles, incandescent and "warm white" lamps come in at 1,700-3,000 range and have a more "orange" tinge. Now our brains adjust so we don't think of that indoor light as "orange", but if you see the 2 lamps side by side (or turn of the colour compensation of your camera) it's very noticeable.

But for "work" areas you want the daylight spectrum, the incandescent is better for living / relaxing as that's what we have been used to at night since Zog the Caveman discovered fire "D

Walnut Beast · September 22, 2022, 05:20:21 PM

The 6500k bulbs I have that are frosted produce a super bright white light. I know that blue color light your talking about. I don't care for it either.

Ianab · September 22, 2022, 05:21:23 PM

Quote from: Crusarius on September 22, 2022, 05:13:59 PMdo not understand how you guys can tolerate the blue light of 5000k+ temperatures

If you install some skylights and let sunshine in, that's what you are going to get. It appears "blue" compared to a 2500K lamp, but compared to sunshine it's "normal".

But yes it's a personal preference, we perceive that spectrum as "harsher" for some reason. So you don't want to use it in your dining room or other "relaxing" places.

RPF2509 · September 22, 2022, 07:51:07 PM

For my 12 X 24 shop space with 14' ceilings I put in 9 LED 4' long (look like the old fluorescents) Its good but I still have individual spotlights on specific machines. More is better.

bigblockyeti · September 22, 2022, 07:59:08 PM

I installed the replacement LED tubes in my old fluorescent fixtures but you had to have an operable ballast for them to work. I was really looking for the kind where the ballast was eliminated and the sockets were hardwired right from the junction box. I couldn't find them at the time. In my current shop (garage) I had a only a trio of incandcent fixtures when I moved in, those were replace with six 48" fixtures from Omni-Ray lighting. The light they give off is great but the build quality is sub-par and the owner was a jerk when I asked him about ordering more flimsy mounting hardware to replace the stuff that broke. I originally found the company from them spamming Craigslist all over the place, that should have been a red flag but the price was decent (not great) and most of the reviews were good. They need little improvement to be a quality product and the company sold to someone with a whole lot more business sense.

doc henderson · September 22, 2022, 10:38:10 PM

I have 4 sky lights in two area in the wood shop. help some but great with lights off with some light coming in.

Tom K · September 23, 2022, 06:10:35 AM

Thanks for all the input. That lighting look good Doc.

Sorry Walnut, but I don't plan on going backwards and putting in old style T5's or T8's .I don't think we have spec'd out any fluorescent fixtures at work in a 3-4 years. I would also think if you using frosted lenses your muting your color down. I'm not a fan of blue light either, 5,000-5,500k seems right to me which is probably close to were you're at with frosted lenses. Also those T5 panels should be mounted 14'+ or higher.

Ianab brought up the "cheaper" fixture topic talking about fixture life, which I think is interesting. I was talking to a buddy of mine that works maintenance for a local school and he didn't seem to think name brand vs off brand made a big difference. He has had just as many name brand fixture go bad in a month or two as he has off brand. Granted he is talking more wallpak's and fluorescent retrofit kits. Both of the electrical engineers I work with quite a bit seem to always spec out a Lithonia fixture. Whether that's because of a good local rep, or a good fixture I'm not sure.

Ianab · September 23, 2022, 06:51:12 AM

Quote from: Tom K on September 23, 2022, 06:10:35 AMIanab brought up the "cheaper" fixture topic talking about fixture life, which I think is interesting. I was talking to a buddy of mine that works maintenance for a local school and he didn't seem to think name brand vs off brand made a big difference.

Name brands aren't immune to the "make it cheaper" thing,

Can you make this $10 LED any cheaper?
Well if we drive the LED's to the max we won't need as many, so only $8, but they will die after 5 years,
No problem, we only warranty them for 3 years (and I will have retired with a nice pension by then)

But often it's the driver circuitry that fails. A single LED works on 3 or 4 colts DC, mains power is 120-240 ac depending on where you live, So there is some clever electronics in that lamp controlling the power. If that fails there is a puff of magic smoke and the lamp is dead.

kantuckid · September 23, 2022, 09:22:21 AM

Quote from: Tom K on September 22, 2022, 12:14:12 PM
Yeah, I find it amusing that a light is rated for 100,000 hours. That's 11 years at 24hrs a day, there has to be a whole lot of "theoretical" in that testing.

I'm slightly limited in my light choice as I want them to be a surface mounted fixture, and to fit between the ribs of the liner panel in the ceiling. I'm still looking at fixtures, but it seems like around 6000+/- lumen is about max for that type of fixture. I'm also limited in mounting height since my ceiling is only 11'-4", most of the higher output fixture required a higher mounting height.

The lack of creditable LED technical testing has been well documented and it's not limited to Chinese junk either. I'm not totally dissing LED's but they are often lacking in certain respects. I've been using them as safety factor lighting on motorcycles for a long time and have thrown more than a few away when they died. The low draw makes them great candidates on two wheels. My Vespa scooter has them all over the place, hit the turn signals or brakes and WOWEE!
FWIW, when I was involved with making a decision to re-light my shop I visited a local electrical supply who was co-incidentally re-lighting their store front and shelving areas. That discussion led to me choosing T-8 bulbs and fixtures.
My original shop lights were done at a time when I broke and I got a really low priced deal to buy a bunch of school classroom lights with lots of bulbs. I quickly regretted that choice as the dust would cover my bulbs quickly-it was a bad choice hands down. The T-8 warmup time isn't a problem ever as that small amount of time never bothers me.
I built skylights into my shop but was prior to the better plastics available now and when they had clouded up, I roofed over them.

Hey Doc, how do you walk around in there? :D

doc henderson · September 23, 2022, 10:18:12 AM

I have a path.

Covid has not helped with just getting in the shop when I can. some is habit, as my dad was the same way. I can find most anything. I will give most anything away, but was raised to not throw things away. I hope things slow down so I can organize this winter. the trouble then is I have trouble finding stuff. lol.

21incher · September 23, 2022, 03:22:27 PM

All I will add is CRI ( color rendering index ) affects the quality of your light and the colors you see. Pay for higher CRI to get the best quality of color rendering. 100 is equal to incandescent and it is not worth putting in a shop if it's below 90. You get what you pay for in leds.

jimbarry · September 25, 2022, 06:40:34 AM

Quote from: Tom King on September 21, 2022, 05:26:04 PM
With good reviews from people I trust on a woodworking forum, I bought these to put up in the mechanic shop. Sorry, I haven't had a chance to get them up yet, so can't really comment on how good they are.

It seems little sense to buy tube lights of any kind any more.

Barrina LED Shop Light, 4FT 40W 5000LM 5000K, Daylight White, V Shape, Clear Cover, Hight Output, Linkable Shop Lights, T8 LED Tube Lights, LED Garage Light 4 Foot with Plug (Pack of 10) - - Amazon.com

I put similar 4ft lighting in one of our work rooms in the basement. Went from a single LED bulb to two 4 foot strips. Big difference. I took the remaining four 4 foot lighting sections and put them in my garage workshop, which is basically a cave so any lighting is an improvement.

kantuckid · September 25, 2022, 09:05:31 AM

Quote from: doc henderson on September 23, 2022, 10:18:12 AM
I have a path. Covid has not helped with just getting in the shop when I can. some is habit, as my dad was the same way. I can find most anything. I will give most anything away, but was raised to not throw things away. I hope things slow down so I can organize this winter. the trouble then is I have trouble finding stuff. lol.

Mine gesticulates between order and mayhem, mostly it's the benches though, not the entire cubic feet of space volume... :D
As I've aged I've done some haul offs such as metal this and thats. Aging away from gas and TIG welding I sold the welders and hauled off most metal too. Now I'm at Metal Depot buying it and finding a welder to stick it. I had saved wood shorts from many years of projects and gave most away to a local crafter who didn't even know the species of some. Last Monday I gave a PU load to a guy, age 82 for bird houses. He wanted a certain width- I asked him if he owned a saw. ;D

aigheadish · September 26, 2022, 02:56:34 PM

I've recently bought several handfuls of the weird mini-ceiling-fan style LEDs for the shop, garage, and basement. I got mine at Menards, they appear to be the warmer colors (I too dislike the cold blue) at a claimed 4000 lumens. There are 4 in my 14x23ish shop and it lights up pretty well. I also have a couple of the 4 footers over the benches when needed. I'm very pleased with these. As I'm thinking about it though maybe I mixed two warm with two cold color temps in the shop, so it's still daylighty but not as harsh.

I'm on the side of there can't be enough light. the 300,000 lumens someone mentioned above seems like it should do the trick!

doc henderson · September 27, 2022, 02:45:58 AM

stopped by my friend Jimmy's and saw his new do dad. it is a power strip with adjustable spotlights. not bad for an old guy to do detailed work with.

aigheadish · September 27, 2022, 06:52:07 AM

I love that he's got that light bolted to a nice piece of wood!

doc henderson · September 27, 2022, 08:26:47 AM

we use so much ERC, that I did not even see that.

Tom K · September 27, 2022, 12:19:19 PM

So to summarize all the post so far that have lumen numbers & square foot values that I can decipher

Doc - 72 lumen/sf old & 84 w/ new lights
Rustictheater - 33 old garage & 53 new shop
Aigheadish - 50
Walnut Beast - recommends 90 lumen /sf.
21insher - :)sounds like a boat load, maybe enough to make me go blind :D

Tom K · December 20, 2022, 06:49:23 AM

I wanted to add a quick update on where I ended up. I ended up being right around 55 lumen/sf. I did add a high receptacle above the lathe and miter saw locations so I can add an additional strip light if I need to. I have most of the tools moved into the shop, and so far I'm happy with the lighting levels. Hopefully I'm still happy after I get everything arranged and start working out there.

aigheadish · December 20, 2022, 03:12:35 PM

Man, all that bright, clean space is beautiful, Tom!

Crusarius · December 20, 2022, 03:30:24 PM

how do you work with so much space?

bigblockyeti · December 20, 2022, 03:59:12 PM

Looks like someone needs to join OWWM.org and start adding tons and tons of old iron into that shop!

doc henderson · December 20, 2022, 07:27:40 PM

Tom K · December 21, 2022, 06:06:25 AM

Well other then roughing out a bowl there really hasn't been any work done in there yet. I still have a few more tools to move in, and then a few more that need updated, and lots of cabinets and benches to build to be able to put everything away. It's been a long process and I'm happy to almost be ready to make some sawdust in there.

After almost 30 years of woodworking it's nice to finally have my space for all the "stuff" I've collected over the years.