Question regarding powering a SCMI Compact 22S 4 sided moulder

[chrisg4242]

I'd appreciate your thoughts please. I recently bought a 1990 SCMI Compact 22S 4 sided moulder and am about to start buying the equipment to make it run.

Here's the situation:

• We're solar powered and off-grid so I will be buying a used generator
• The machine requires around 30KW / 3 phase excluding dust extraction needs so I'll likely buy a 50-75KW generator 
• I'd like to buy a 460-480V generator as they are more readily available to me
• The SCMI Moulder is labelled as 230V but the motors are labelled as dual-voltage 230/460V

Here's my question:

• If I re-wire the 4 motors to their 480v configuration will I be good to go or will I run into trouble with other machine functions?
• Is a better solution a 480v to 230/240V transformer?

Thanks for considering my question

[customsawyer]

I'm no electrician so can't answer most of your questions. I will add that you have a 5th motor that will need rewired and that is the feed motor. The SCMI equipment I have ran is really good equipment.

[teakwood]

I'm also no electrician but on my sicar moulder you can just rewire the motors and go with the higher voltage, the circuit board/ electro panel of the machine has his own small transformer to make lower voltage electricity for the commands. you have 6 motors on a 4 sider if you have powerlift and a 7th motor will be the dust extraction.

[Southside]

480V will allow you to pull fewer amps to do the same work, also allows for smaller wire saving installation costs.

Generally it's just a matter of changing the motor tap connections to go from low to high voltage, under the input cover of each motor should be a diagram for either option. 

[chrisg4242]

Thank you for your answers. I'll reconfigure the motors and post back how it went.

[scsmith42]

Thank you for your answers. I'll reconfigure the motors and post back how it went.

That's what I would do as well.  Plus you have the benefit of being able to run smaller wiring from your load center to your moulder.
I power my equipment off of a 400 hp 480V generator.  It's overkill, but I got a good deal on it.  

[Don P]

Hold on, motors are easy,

the circuit board/ electro panel of the machine has his own small transformer to make lower voltage electricity for the commands

 I'd open the control cover and see what it takes in there. I'm assuming there are 480 taps on a transformer and I imagine there is a schematic on the cover but figure that out first.

[halderman]

Once you reconnect you motor leads- ideally you will want to replace the overload/heaters on the contactors so you will have proper over load protection, since your cutting the amps in have the existing overloads won’t protect the motors.  They might have a dial where you can adjust but typically that’s out of the adjustment range.  And as all ready stated, the transformer for your control circuits will need to have the taps reconnected.  I’m pretty sure scmi smaller moulder share a motor for the vertical spindles.  

[YellowHammer]

440 is better than 220 3 phase, smaller wire, higher voltage, less voltage drop, just better. 

I’d recommend calling your SCMI dealer and asking them for advice, as well, the ones I have used are very knowledgeable and service much of the equipment they sell.

What kind of generator fuel do you plan on running?

It goes without saying, but I’ll say it anyway...get enough generator for your future needs, but don’t get one too big.  This size drinks fuel, my 60KW is rated at 14 gallons per hour and my fuel tank has a remote transmitter in it so when it gets low, it phones home and a fuel truck just shows up like magic.  All it takes is dollar bills....

[chrisg4242]

Thanks for the input. Yes I'll reach out to the SCMI dealer.

I only need a 40KW generator to run the moulder and dust extraction but I'll probably pick up something between 50-75KW if its affordable and also future proof a bit.

My preference would be diesel but I'm tempted by the 75kw generators that are for auction at Ritchie's in Lethbridge next week which is about 500 miles away from home. These generators are low hour 5.9 Cummins that Cummins has converted to propane spark ignition so I could avoid problems associated with diesels running on low loads. We'll see...if they are just 2-3k, I'll probably pick one up. 

I'll post an update after chatting with SCMI and bidding at Ritchie's

[scsmith42]

The SCMI manual for your machine should include a section about changes required to go from 230 to 460.

Typically it’s each motor and a transformer wiring change for any electronics.

[Andries]

. .  . auction in Lethbridge .  .  I'll post an update . .  and bidding at Ritchie's.

My son bid and won on a Vermeer stump grinder through Ritchie’s, he found it easy and got what he expected.
Good luck, and I’m jealous of the $1.34 value of the American buck these days.

[longtime lurker]

I'm used to sizing generators in kVa not kW, so I'm working off a power conversion factor of 0.8 courtesy of google.

My electrician measured the genset load at the switchboard here the other week with 4 sider and blower running as 56 kVa. My 4 sider has larger motors than the SCM will, and my blower is about a 15hp motor from memory. So 50kW should do what you want, and certainly it will run it okay.

However run loading and startup loading are different. My drymill genset is rated at 90kVa continuous/120kVa standby. If I forget to unpair my top and bottom heads on the moulder ( there's a switch for both and another sub switch for the bottom head from that) that generator gives a bellow as the governor opens up.

However  I can hit the switch on the 25hp SLR motor and it doesn't miss a beat... That's the difference between big motors with soft starts and moulder size motors at the upper limit of DOL startup.

Guess what I'm trying to say is sizing a genset is important and you need to factor in more than just loadings, you need to consider individual motor sizes and the starter system on those motors. Fuel burn is a factor - you don't want to be making more power than you can sensibly need - but ultimately if you aren't making enough to cover an extra gallon of diesel an hour then you shouldn't be turning the gear on in the first place.

What I find is that running a genset to run lumber through a moulder isn't at all expensive. But running a genset to set up the moulder can be - I've got really careful about measuring settings and documenting them so that I can set heads up without having to feed wood through.

[Southside]

I would imagine that propane gen set would eat some gas compared to a diesel. 

[chrisg4242]

Once you reconnect you motor leads- ideally you will want to replace the overload/heaters on the contactors so you will have proper over load protection, since your cutting the amps in have the existing overloads won’t protect the motors.  They might have a dial where you can adjust but typically that’s out of the adjustment range.  And as all ready stated, the transformer for your control circuits will need to have the taps reconnected.  I’m pretty sure scmi smaller moulder share a motor for the vertical spindles.  

Thanks for the feedback. They do indeed share a motor for the vertical spindles. It looks like the transformer can accept either primary voltage without adjustment. In terms of overload protection, am I in the right area? (see second photo_

 

 

 

[KenMac]

If your machine data plates specify it as 208/230 volts the controls and overloads are probably voltage specific to that voltage. You may have to replace some components here. I'm speaking from experience with commercial HVAC equipment , but would think that manufacturing processes are similar. Check the overloads closely as they may well be voltage specific. Good luck!

[Sod saw]

.   


As an electrician, I have been called and asked questions that seem simple on the phone.  It has been my experience that when I arrive at the job site, I find equipment that have little differences here and there from the questions that were asked on the phone.  All of a sudden those phone questions become more complex than first thought.

What I am trying to say is:  all of the responses to your first question, here, are good answers as far as they go.  The best and safest and lease expensive answer would come from a local qualified electrician who is able to come to your set up, see what you actually have on hand; and talk about your needs now as well as your future dreams.

Not all electricians welcome owners help with installations, but you may find one who will let you do some of the "bull work" saving you some costs during your upgrade.  Or one who may able to be a consultant.

What ever you decide, make sure that the final job is "inspected" by a qualified electrical inspector, not just the electrician.

have fun with this project.


.

[YellowHammer]

With mine, I played "by the rules" and did much as Sod Saw suggests.  

In order for me to install an over 10KW permanent, fixed generator (not on wheels or trailer) I had to get it's install inspected by the county, to check compliance of everything from proper grounding, anchoring of the generator, distance from nearby building (10 feet) and even the size of the concrete pad.

If I had used a transfer switch, and in any way connected it to county power, then there would have been lots more to deal with, so even though I had a transfer switch I never installed it.  They do not want their linemen to get hit by generator feedback, so are very serious about any generator power unit connecting to "their power lines" as they said.    

In order to get fuel delivered and the tank filled, I had to hire a licensed installer to place it (I had to buy the tank), to run the underground fuel line to the generator (a minimum of 30 feet away from the generator), and do the final hookup.  I dug the ditch, poured the pad, etc, but the install company had to use steel pipe with an EPDM sheath to prevent underground corrosion.  It also had to be properly grounded.

I consulted a licensed generator electrician and consulted with him on the job before hand.  He made a material list and I bought all the hardware, installed the panel, ran the conduit, and pulled the wires by myself.  I then hired him for 1 day, at $1,000, to do the final hookup from the generator to the 3 phase panel in the building, and I helped him with the install from the panel to the generator.  Interestingly enough, he said it was the first time he'd ever had a "homeowner" do a correct, to code install where he didn't have to fix anything, and he offered me a job on the spot.

At that point, we fired up the generator, checked voltage it at the 3 phase panel, then checked it at the generator and everything was good.  He made a phone call, the county inspector came back out and by the end of the day I was ready to run.  However....

The company I bought my planer from said I would void the warranty if I turned the machine on for the first time without them there to pre check everything.  So within a couple days, they showed up, and I spent the time getting the dust collector installed and ready to go.  When the company rep showed up, he checked the machine wiring and we flipped the switch and Voila! everything worked and nothing smoked.  Then he made a few adjustments to the machine, we ran a few boards and it was over.  All worked well and no problems.

It may sound complicated, but it was pretty sequential and to the plan.  No big deal.  

   

[teakwood]

YH, you have a moulder/4sider? You never showed fotos and I never saw the machine in one of your videos, which by the way are outstanding 

[YellowHammer]

No, I had to do the generator install for my 25 inch double sided carpet planer.  It’s 55 hp total and I had to install a 480 V 3 phase generator to run it.  I couldn’t get county 3 phase and that’s a little too big for a phase converter.  I have it wired to a breaker panel so I can run any 3 phase I want off it, and also have a 220 transformer for it.

Currently, I use a combination of phase converter and generator to run all my 3 phase equipment.  

The company who sold me the planer also sold me my sweet SCMI 20 inch 3 phase facer.  I’m extremely happy with both, and I once had an issue with the facer and the repair man had me do the entire repair remotely by FaceTime on my phone from about 2 states away.  I physically would stick my phone in the machine and he would “look around” for stuff and look at my voltmeter as I was checking circuitry.  He would have done an on-site service call but it would have taken days.  I was back up and running in a matter of hours. 

Thanks for watching the videos.  Some people get paid pretty well off them, Martha says I don’t make enough money to pay for the film, and considering we are using digital cameras, film is pretty cheap!