American chestnut tree?

[Stevenjohn21]

A friend of mine recently cut this tree down here in Georgia and suspects it's an American chestnut.
Can anyone confirm based off the pictures?  

[Stevenjohn21]

I picked the tree up today and although I didn't get any leaves to help ID it, I did manage to find the spikey seeds that were scattered all around. 
Hopefully this will help someone to know what tree it is. 

[Don P]

There we go, that would be a chestnut burr.
With a trunk that long and straight, it probably is an American.

Oh, gently put that burr down. Stomp/smear it around with your foot till it releases the nut from that outer husk. Then you can pick the nut up safely. Plant them all, that tree has something going on.

Hmm, hold on, lets google chinkapin  :D
Castanea pumila (Allegheny Chinquapin, American Chinquapin, Chinquapin, Common Chinquapin, Dwarf Chestnut) | North Carolina Extension Gardener Plant Toolbox (ncsu.edu)
Nah, I'm thinking not on that.

[Ron Scott]

American chestnut. Any similar trees in the area this one came from?

[SwampDonkey]

When you saw it the wood will look similar to ash, but latewood pores are in a flame pattern and can't see the rays and no lustre to planed surfaces. Ash is like glass with lustre when planed, very narrow band of earlywood pores in 2-3 stacked rows. Chestnut has a broader band of pores and I think the sapwood is narrower. Ash has a lot of white sapwood.

[moodnacreek]

They saw here you are not supposed to cut them down here. We have cut a few when they died, never more than 11" d.b.h. and wormy always. That one looks beautiful. Is it wormy?

[SwampDonkey]

I wouldn't be surprised if it were Colossal Chestnut (Castanea sativa × Castanea crenata) and not wild.

[Don P]

I'm rusty, that would be a european sweet chestnut and a ?

[SwampDonkey]

A cross of French and Japanese chestnuts, crossed by Felix Gillet at his nursery. Apparently it has to be planted with a pollenizer variety since it has no pollen. They are also blight susceptible like American chestnut. They have done trials as far north as Michigan, they are chiefly grown in California.

[Prizl tha Chizl]

Burnt ridge nursery in Olympia, WA sells many euro/Asian hybrid chestnuts for nut production, some with more of a timber form, many with blight resistance. Layeroka, Skioka, Marsol, precoce Migoule, silver leaf are among them.

[Rhodemont]

That is definitely a chestnut burr.  But I find it hard to believe it is truly a pure American chestnut.  If it is you have something truly special outside of the small growth of trees surviving out in the upper mid west.  There is an entire society dedicated to the American Chestnut and bringing it back.  I highly recommend you contact them.

[Stevenjohn21]

I finally got around to milling this. The tree was cut into 2x9' logs. The butt end measures 35" wide and takers to 22"
The picture below is the smaller of the 2 logs. Hopefully this will help you ID this tree better.

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[SwampDonkey]

Not American chestnut. Here are some images of lumber and grain. It has no dark streaks in it. It can't be stain because the sapwood looks chalk white. And A. chestnut is not heavy like oak or hickory.

American Chestnut | The Wood Database (Hardwood)

@customsawyer See any lumber like this in your operations?

[customsawyer]

Yes Sir that right there is a Danny tree. Crazy how much I miss that guy.
Since the OP is from the Atlanta area it could be interesting what it ends up being. It has good sized growth rings that look like it has some mineral stain in it, judging from the first pic of the butt end of the log. Some of the pictures of the lumber reminds me of our water oaks around here with mineral stain, but I've never seen one produce those little balls. It also looks like the OP might be wetting the lumber before the pictures, making the dark stains a lot darker than we think. Maybe @caveman can give us a hand or if someone can get a hold of @Dodgy Loner as he is every bit as good at this ID stuff if not a little better than Danny was.

[caveman]

It's funny that you mention mineral stained water oak.  I was thinking, after looking at the picture, that it resembled mineral stained water or laurel oak, but it is not quite right for one of the lesser quality red oaks. I don't have any good guesses as to what it is.

 

[customsawyer]

Sure wish that end grain in the last picture was cleaned up some.

[SwampDonkey]

There is a term called olive ash, it's not a species, just dark grain that does not follow ring patterns. Both olive and ash are in the Oleaceae family. Still a puzzle where the bur came from, any chance there are Alleghany chinkapins around there?

Olive Ash | The Wood Database (Hardwood)

[Stevenjohn21]

This tree was the only tree on the front of the property with 100s of these burrs all around the base.

[Dodgy Loner]

That's definitely a red oak. Probably laurel or water oak from the looks of the bark. The wide medullary rays are clearly visible around the knot in the picture of the lumber. Chestnut would not have visible rays. The mineral staining is also typical of water/laurel oak. 

[SwampDonkey]

It's no A. chestnut for sure.  A mystery where the burs came from.

[Stevenjohn21]

I just opened up one of the burrs to see what the chestnut looked like......
From everything I'm reading and seeing, I'm pretty convinced it's not a red oak lol

[customsawyer]

I don't know where or what those burrs came from. I do know that I completely trust Dodgy Loner as much as WDH when it comes to tree ID. I started to pick on Dodgy one time and ole Danny took me to the side and explained in his subtle, firm but polite way that even he wouldn't disagree with Dodgy. It also makes me look smarter than I am that he agrees with my first guess. :D

[SwampDonkey]

With respect, I would trust Dodgy with those southern trees and probably most other native woods, but until I see an oak with burs with 3 nutlets inside being picked up under a lone tree I'd have to agree with the guy posting the inquiry. I'd still like to see any large rays on that end grain in the one board with the closeup. And further I've yet to see A. chestnut lumber with that stain or dark grain to it, especially since the sap ain't stained. Which suggests it's not stain from lying around on the ground.  :D
Nothing is written in stone tablets over this, could very well be mineral stained chestnut. ;D

[SwampDonkey]

I forwarded a link to the wood database for another set of eyes. They've seen lots of lumber over there, so we'll see if they have a diagnoses.

[KEC]

If there is a forestry college in the area, take some photos and a wood sample to them. (?)

[Stevenjohn21]

I forwarded a link to the wood database for another set of eyes. They've seen lots of lumber over there, so we'll see if they have a diagnoses.

Thank you. That would be great if they responded with an answer. I was going to ask the American chestnut foundation but they will only accept mailed in  leaves and the nuts to ID. I don't have any leaves and the nuts I have planted in the hopes I can get one to take. 

[Don P]

There are 3 fuzzy nuts, I think that's American, pics of both here;
Allegheny Chinkapin | The American Chestnut Foundation (acf.org)

If you still have bark around I took some pics of a 98% American at work today


 

 

 

[SwampDonkey]

His lawn tree certainly has the same form.

[moodnacreek]

People bring me old lumber samples for id from time to time. I am not educated in wood id so I have to compare the sample against something I have and know. With chestnut a flat sawn board , flame grain, cannot be confused with oak or elm or ash.

[Texas Ranger]

Something close would be buckeye, Buckeye Burl grows throughout ut,  most of the eastern US and in California on the Buckeye tree. It is relatively soft and light in weight. The Burl is incredibly beautiful - containing burl clusters, amazing color variation, and great character. Colors can range from golden yellow to brown with blackish-blue and even red accents. It is highly sought after for a wide variety of turning projects as well as knife handles and guitars.

But, not enough information for this old forester.  But, again, Dodgy Loner is a much better ID guy than I.

[customsawyer]

This is a picture of a water oak in my area. I have seen them with all kinds of different forms. As Dodgy mentioned the rays are a dead give away.

[Stevenjohn21]

This is a picture of a water oak in my area. I have seen them with all kinds of different forms. As Dodgy mentioned the rays are a dead give away.

When you say you've seen them in different forms, do you mean you've seen them with spikey burs growing on them and chestnuts inside!? 

[SwampDonkey]

I've not had any response on the photos in this post. I linked to this post.  I'm sure we've got as much expertise on the FF as over there anyway or someone would have jumped on it by now.

However, from what we see in the photos of the lumber,  it would be a real tough sell to push the lumber as A. chestnut. The nuts don't match the lumber.

As for red oak I really don't see much for rays, except around the knot that Dodgy pointed out, if they aren't simply checks, which knots tend to do fairly quickly. On the end grain and the rest of the board all I see is saw scratches. Usually see quite wide rays in red oak. And the wood of the different red oaks are not distinguishable with certainty, so some authors claim. Other clues such as bark, nuts and leaves help narrow them down. I do have some experience identifying lumber, but I don't see the variety or variance that folks might see south of us. You have to do a lot of it and often to be proficient. I don't have any doubts in Dodgy in that regard. WDH had been at it for a long time and he believed in him to. ;)

[Don P]

That jogged a neuron, these were in my gallery, I think there might be another good chestnut, Danny was describing what I was getting out of the scanner. That post is somewhere.

Sassafras on top, chestnut on the bottom, ring porous, no visible rays, tyloses in the chestnut cell cavities.

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Below; White oak, those are huge rays diagonally, still a ring porous wood, tyloses




Below; Red oak, distinct medullary rays, no tyloses



 

Cut with radial arm, sanded to 600 and blown off IIRC. I think the scanner was at 1200dpi


Here's another, WO, RO, Chestnut on the bottom




Ever hear people say red oak doesn't get bluestain? Look at it running in on the rays from that spalted sapwood.

[Don P]

And more  :D
WO;



 



RO, swiss cheesy


 


Chestnut, at whatever this magnification was the rays become visible. Notice how much finer they are than the oaks.



 

[Stevenjohn21]

So chestnut does get the rays similar to oak but just not as noticeable? 
I understand that people are seeing oak in the lumber itself but I physically saw burs all over where the stump was and on some branches that the clean up crew didn't clean up. This is how I snagged a few burs. I sure wish I grabbed a few more now. I did plant all 3 nuts in the hopes it would grow so when leaves appear I guess we will know for sure. 
I appreciate everyone's help with this and I know you are all very well experienced, way more than me but the chestnut burs all around the base of the tree cannot be ignored. 

[Don P]

When people say "no rays", they should really be saying "no rays visible to the naked eye". 

When you are looking at the sections above.. the sliced off end grain is the vertical transport piping. The rays run in and out like spokes and pass alongside the vertical vessels. There is a valve at each cell crossing, a pit pair, half of the pair in each cell wall between the ray and vessel. In other words the elevator can stop at any floor and run over to any door, and open it.

Hardwood Anatomy | The Wood Database (wood-database.com)

Look for the tyloses in a really cleanly prepped end section. I was just using a flatbed scanner as a magnifying glass. If you don't have one a smartphone and blow it up would work if you can get sharp focus.

[samandothers]

Don, Danny would be proud of you!  Though he would use some big words he'd appreciate the level of explanation!

[SwampDonkey]

When people say "no rays", they should really be saying "no rays visible to the naked eye".

Yup. Roger on that. ;)

And a white ash, you can just see the rays vertically. Best seen with a 10x magnification. I don't think a hand lens will let you see chestnut rays with clarity according to the keys in 'The Textbook of Wood Technology', which was a college text for years. No tylosis, sassafras is similar but has tylosis. White ash is hard and lustrous and not quite as heavy as red oak when dry to 12% but within 1 lb, at 42 lb/cu-ft.






In some regions where ash is abundant, it is in old buildings and it gets confused with chestnut. Everyone wants to believe they have chestnut in their old barn. ;) But freshly sawed ash shouldn't be confused for chestnut. If you've sawed a lot of ash, you know what ash looks like. Chestnut would be a rare find and I can't see why the two could be confused if you're familiar with ash.  Old, aged, unplaned and water stained lumber is another matter until it is cleaned up.

[customsawyer]

I bet UGA wood like to get their hands on some of the wood for the forestry class to ID.

[Don P]

This is the best pics I've found for most wood;
chestnut (hobbithouseinc.com)

A wiki on the definition of tyloses;
Tylosis (botany) - Wikipedia

American Chestnut | The Wood Database (Hardwood) (wood-database.com)
Notice the end grain comments.

American Chestnut | Identification Of Common North American Woods (woodidentification.net)

I think studying those and the oaks and getting some really clear pics of what you have will clear it up.

Thanks, but I'm 1% of that Sam

[SwampDonkey]

The end grain is even hard to see with a 10 x lens on chestnut, gonna do some real squinting. As I said that tidbit was from wood ID keys in an old Forestry college text from the 80's. Descriptions of some things comes by consensus, I can tell you that. :D  I've even seen it suggested that white ash 'can have' tylosis. But I think it sporadic, maybe a pore here and there. It's not pronounced like white oak.

Those folks at the wood database have refrained from comment on this thread. And collectively, we likely know about as much as they do anyway. They and also the last link by Don have great photos. We are rather limited by file size over here to see clearer images.

[samandothers]

Thanks, but I'm 1% of that Sam

You say that, and on actual tree knowledge maybe, but you share a great deal of information/knowledge on construction. You also dig into other subjects giving references to help others learn.  Don't sell yourself short!  I just copied some of your stair tread detail from another post to share with my son concerning a deck stair project he wants to undertake.  

[moodnacreek]

Chestnut wood is common in older barns especially on the mountains. Where there was a local use sawmill it is common in homes up until ww 2.

[Stevenjohn21]

Here are some pictures of the end grain. Hopefully this will help ID 

[Don P]

I'm seeing rays in that top one, can't tell if I'm seeing rays or saw on the other 2. It also looks like butt, get a very clean razor cut on the other end of that chestnut oak board and post a pic if you would. clean up finer than the saw marks and get as close as it'll give a clear pic.

[SwampDonkey]

Looks like a species of red oak, the rays are too prominent for chestnut. I believe Dodgy nailed it. He can see stuff I can't. :D But now I can see rays, where I did not before. I'm also seeing more than 3 rows of early wood pores. In other words, more than A. chestnut would ever have.

[Stevenjohn21]

I really wish one of you had been there to see the burs scattered around the base of the tree and when I milled it, the smell was not oak. The closest I can explain to the smell was a hoppy beer smell. I've cut plenty of white and red oak the last month, it's definitely not the same smell. 
Is there anyway it could be oak/chestnut hybrid!? Is there such a thing? Again, if it wasn't for the chestnuts all over the ground then I'd accept it was an oak but I can't because I physically saw them which is what I posted 😂

[Don P]

I have always been suspect of the morals of oaks.

If nothing else it'll make for wood with a story  :D

[TSAW]

I have nothing constructive to add to the conversation, I just appreciate all the knowledge and information you all on here are passing on, I wish my grandfather was still alive, he and his brothers ran a sawmill for years.  I would have loved to have the privilege of milling with him, one day maybe I will rebuild the old Frick mill we still have sitting on the property.  I guarantee he would have a good idea what tree you milled, maybe not as scientific as some of the replies on here, but the old timers knew their stuff, living off the land and working it from the time they could stand on their own two legs, till they died.

[stavebuyer]

Looks like a Pin Oak that was growing in close proximity to a Chestnut.

[customsawyer]

Like I said before, I have no idea where the burs came from or off of. As for the smell, there is no telling what is in the ground that is causing the mineral stain. It could very well change the way the wood smells. I wish it was a chestnut as bad as you do but I don't see it. If you can't make it to UGA with a piece of it, you can take a piece to the county extension agent and they can send it to them. Wish you had some more of those burs too but I don't think they came from the tree. I think they came from something else. It is interesting there was no leaves under or on the tree but lots of burs. Leads one to think that since the tree was coming down someone might be playing a prank. Best of luck.

[KEC]

I'm reluctant to say this as I don't care to sound foolish, but glancing at that last photo, Hackberry came to mind. Just saying.

[Texas Ranger]

'taint hackberry.

[Southside]

That mineral stain, combined with the off odor, could actually be a bacterial infection - common to the lesser red oaks.  In my experience with infected oak as it dries a lot of it basically falls apart.  First time I saw that in lumber I had no idea what it was - WDH was the one who educated me on it.  

[moodnacreek]

Looks like a Pin Oak that was growing in close proximity to a Chestnut.

Pin oak you say? Almost an insult.   The bark looks like pin oak and the sap wood and the dead knots and the ring count do too. The color of the sawn lumber is what throws me off. I don't see that green look. If I was there and after it drys a little it would be easy to id pin oak.

[moodnacreek]

Yesterday I finished sawing the oak and there was a big fresh cut pin oak in the mix that I hearted  out a 12 x12 from. I otherwise have no use for pin oak but I made 1" jacket boards, some edged 12" wide and they are identical to the photo.