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Saw-chain type for felling

Started by 54Dutchman, December 18, 2015, 12:34:33 PM

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54Dutchman

This may have been asked many times before, I am guessing, but I am not sure how to search for it.
I have a Stihl MS 460, will be cutting down mostly elm trees for lumber and firewood.  What would be the recommended chain type? Chisel, semi-chisel or square chisel?  Trees will vary from 12 inch and up for diameter.  Looking for a aggressive bite with good chip removal.
Thanks Gene. ??? ???

beenthere

What chain have you been used to using, and how do you sharpen... send out, by hand, or by grinder ?

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

OldJack

It looks like sharpening square chisel is a whole 'nuther ball game. Conventional grinders don't work and one that does costs $800 - $1000. Check out this thread.

http://firewoodhoardersclub.com/forums/threads/square-filing-chains.5670/

John Mc

For me, the choice would be chisel for felling. Usually the tree is still clean while it's standing, so no need to consider semi-chisel.  I personally find square chisel not worth the extra effort for the performance gained (though I agree it does cut nicely). If I were cutting for a living, or cutting something different than what I'm doing these days, I might feel differently.

With the MS 460, that would be 3/8" chisel, since the saw can certainly handle it. I think 3/8 clears chips a little better than .325 pitch.  If you are getting into really large wood, you might consider a skip-tooth chisel chain. It takes a little less power to pull through the wood, an dI've heard it clears chips from the groove better. I haven't had occasion to use it myself.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

John Mc

BTW, is this American Elm? I don't run into any that big around here. Dutch Em disease tends to kill them off before they get that big.

BTW, if it is American Elm, have fun splitting it. (It's a good way to knock that any "tough-guy" city slicker friends of yours down a peg. Get yourself some white ash, and give them the American Elm and have a hand-splitting contest.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

54Dutchman

Yes american elm, chain 33RCS-91,I use a fiskars  X27 for splitting. 
The MS460 does not seem to be working to hard with this chain. ;D

John Mc

If you are splitting American Elm by hand, you are a better man than I, even with an X-27 (I use an X-25 to split about half my personal-use firewood, but any Elm goes to the hydraulic splitter). Enjoy your work-out (if you are not getting a work-out, it would make me question whether it's really American Elm).

Even when I use the splitter, I have to drive the ram all the way through the wood - and even then sometimes that last inch that my ram won't move is a problem - I have to throw in a spacer t close that last gap.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

HolmenTree

Quote from: 54Dutchman on December 18, 2015, 03:35:45 PM
chain 33RCS-91,
The MS460 does not seem to be working to hard with this chain. ;D
33RSC on a 28" bar is all the chain you need. Stihl has been marketing that style of chain on their larger pro saws for decades.....that right there is the best selling chain/MS460 powerhead combo.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

JohnG28

I believe the 33RSC has a ramped raker, the C being for comfort=lower vibe=ramped/bumper link. It has the same cutter as 33RS, just different raker setup. For felling I doubt you'll notice much difference, but it will be harder to bore cut with. 33RS is full chisel, round ground with normal raker. I have a bunch or 33RS chains, they're good stuff.  8)
Stihl MS361, 460 & 200T, Jonsered 490, Jonsereds 90, Husky 350 & 142, Homelite XL and Super XL

HolmenTree

Quote from: JohnG28 on December 19, 2015, 11:25:55 AM
I believe the 33RSC has a ramped raker, the C being for comfort=lower vibe=ramped/bumper link. It has the same cutter as 33RS, just different raker setup. For felling I doubt you'll notice much difference, but it will be harder to bore cut with. 33RS is full chisel, round ground with normal raker. I have a bunch or 33RS chains, they're good stuff.  8)
Actually the Comfort feature is not in the depth gauge at all, its in the heel of the cutter.

It must be almost 10 years ago now that  Stihl and Oregon redesigned their chains...... VibBan for Oregon, Comfort for Stihl.
They removed a portion off the bottom of the cutter under the heel behind the rear rivet. This clearance acts as a shock absorber as the chain is cutting reducing vibration.
Stihl stamped a C on the side of the cutter, Oregon uses a 1 barbed arrow.
I can show you a RS chain from the 1980s / 90s. Still a chisel cutter but a straight verticle front depth gauge with a ramp directly in front of it on top of a side link.
Took Stihl about 10 years to adapt the 33RS to the 1982 Oregon 72LG design.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

CR888

I agree with Holmen with regard to chain choice with the exception of gauge choice.....I'd run 36RM or 36RMC if l could not get 36RM. I prefer .063 on high power saws in hardwood. I read Elm is a pretty hard species for what you have over there. Spread the load on the drive tangs and have them last the life of the chain. In our wood 050 makes big bars with big saws get really hot bars and chains.....it  won't clear chips and don't move oil. Drive tang maintenance is as important to me as depth gauges. All this may not be an issue for your part of the globe though. Still Aust delivers all new saws not running picco with 063 gauge chain. After l bought a bunch of big 050 bars out of the US......I learned 'why' this is the case, pity l did it the dumb/hard way! I have Sugi lights in 24" 28"32" 36" that sit piled in my shop as they are 050. I thought l was clever being 050 they could run picco milling and standard 3/8 bucking/felling. Expensive mistake!! In our hardwood in one/two cuts you can render a full chisel chain 'out of service' till it sees a grinder. 063/semi chisel is what works here.

HolmenTree

I agree alot of tougher wood fiber down under where you are and I see some of my .050 drive links losing chunks outta them when in steady hardwood.
We cut quite a bit of softwood here in the central to western America's where the thinner bars do better in the kerf binding softwood fibre, especially cedar......kind of like cutting palm.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

54Dutchman

Sounds like I am on the right track with the chain; Thanks ;D ;D.  As far a splitting the elm, I use the 'peeling method', aim for 3 or 4 inches from the side and peel off the pieces.  If you 'try' to split the wood through center you will get your work out with out getting split wood.  I tried a small 5 ton electric splitter for use in the garage and it only lasted a year (it was not new), motor ran but did not move ram.

John Mc

Quote from: 54Dutchman on December 21, 2015, 10:26:13 AM
Sounds like I am on the right track with the chain; Thanks ;D ;D.  As far a splitting the elm, I use the 'peeling method', aim for 3 or 4 inches from the side and peel off the pieces.  If you 'try' to split the wood through center you will get your work out with out getting split wood.  I tried a small 5 ton electric splitter for use in the garage and it only lasted a year (it was not new), motor ran but did not move ram.

I wonder if there is an official name for that technique. I always called it "flaking", but that's just my own term. I've heard a friend call it "slabbing" - I guess it is kind of like what you get when you cut a slab on a sawmill.

I don't have much Elm bigger than 7 or 8", so there is not much to work with with that technique. It does work well on the occasional larger pieces I run into.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

beenthere

Flaking is a good term.. and the technique works well for splitting elm... when I used to do it by hand splitting maul.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

CTYank

Quote from: John Mc on December 21, 2015, 11:41:46 AM
Quote from: 54Dutchman on December 21, 2015, 10:26:13 AM
Sounds like I am on the right track with the chain; Thanks ;D ;D.  As far a splitting the elm, I use the 'peeling method', aim for 3 or 4 inches from the side and peel off the pieces.  If you 'try' to split the wood through center you will get your work out with out getting split wood.  I tried a small 5 ton electric splitter for use in the garage and it only lasted a year (it was not new), motor ran but did not move ram.

I wonder if there is an official name for that technique. I always called it "flaking", but that's just my own term. I've heard a friend call it "slabbing" - I guess it is kind of like what you get when you cut a slab on a sawmill.

I don't have much Elm bigger than 7 or 8", so there is not much to work with with that technique. It does work well on the occasional larger pieces I run into.

Some call it "daisying"- sometimes the connotation applies. :')

Some fiskars-folks (that I've seen) approach 'em all that way, even red oak, that they could pop right down the middle for starters.
'72 blue Homelite 150
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RedMax GZ4000, "Mac" 35 cc, Dolmar PS-6100
Husqy 576XP-AT
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Mix of mauls
Morso 7110

Greyhound

I totally agree.  3/8ths, full chisel, round ground, Stihl = RS, Oregon = LGX.  Do not use any  "reduced kickback" style chain with the extra bumpers.  It makes bore cutting a PITA.  Gauge 0.050 vs. 0.063 is basically irrelevant.  Use whichever matches your bar. Have fun and be safe.

HolmenTree

Here's some measurements I took of the differences in thicknesses of .050 and .063 bars.
The .050 bar is .028" thinner then the .063 bar.
Think of a plate of steel over a half drive link thick over a 3 foot long bar. That's alot of extra weight and extra kerf binding in softwood. ;)


  

 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Walnut Beast

Quote from: CR888 on December 20, 2015, 12:09:49 AM
I agree with Holmen with regard to chain choice with the exception of gauge choice.....I'd run 36RM or 36RMC if l could not get 36RM. I prefer .063 on high power saws in hardwood. I read Elm is a pretty hard species for what you have over there. Spread the load on the drive tangs and have them last the life of the chain. In our wood 050 makes big bars with big saws get really hot bars and chains.....it  won't clear chips and don't move oil. Drive tang maintenance is as important to me as depth gauges. All this may not be an issue for your part of the globe though. Still Aust delivers all new saws not running picco with 063 gauge chain. After l bought a bunch of big 050 bars out of the US......I learned 'why' this is the case, pity l did it the dumb/hard way! I have Sugi lights in 24" 28"32" 36" that sit piled in my shop as they are 050. I thought l was clever being 050 they could run picco milling and standard 3/8 bucking/felling. Expensive mistake!! In our hardwood in one/two cuts you can render a full chisel chain 'out of service' till it sees a grinder. 063/semi chisel is what works here.
I've heard many mixed opinions. For all you big timers that bore cut how happy or mad would I be running a full skip square ground chain or a full skip micro on a 30" bar vs regular full chisel chain in bigger wood. Is the plunge cutting really tricky or do you get use to it. 

Nealm66

Chisel bit is what I use. Definitely want 63 gauge on a 30" bar or it will start running very quickly as your teeth shorten. The sharper chisel corners help for cleaning your undercut and definitely for boring. It can be round filed but I use a chisel grinder and if I want it to bore better I can run a slight hook but it will dull faster. Hope this helps 

sawguy21

I started working around saws in the mid 70's and have yet to see 3/8 x .063, nobody in this area uses it. I really fail to see where it would be an advantage in our softwoods, hardwoods may be different. Semi skip in anything over 30" was the norm to keep the kerf from clogging. Never encountered square ground either. Different markets.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Larry

Quote from: Walnut Beast on January 20, 2023, 01:08:46 AMI've heard many mixed opinions. For all you big timers that bore cut how happy or mad would I be running a full skip square ground chain or a full skip micro on a 30" bar vs regular full chisel chain in bigger wood. Is the plunge cutting really tricky or do you get use to it.
Soren Erickson taught me how to bore cut in Game of Logging class 24 years ago.  He also taught me how to sharpen semi-skip square chain.  He bore cut almost everything.

I still bore cut every tree big nuff to get a bar through.  I also buck a lot of logs using a bore cut.  Now, I normally use standard chisel chain.

While I love using semi-skip square, I never cut enough to really get proficient at hand filing and don't own machine to sharpen it.  So now I only use square on occasion when I want an extra treat!  
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Nealm66

If you're new to bore cutting, practice with a log and give a little twist on the motor as you're pushing in. If you're going with the direct lean on a large hard leaner, cut a little off both the side straps to prevent barber chair. I rarely use bore cuts unless I'm trying to eliminate stump pull for merchantability. Just safer to fall it to the side of its lean

Walnut Beast

Quote from: sawguy21 on January 20, 2023, 11:58:49 AM
I started working around saws in the mid 70's and have yet to see 3/8 x .063, nobody in this area uses it. I really fail to see where it would be an advantage in our softwoods, hardwoods may be different. Semi skip in anything over 30" was the norm to keep the kerf from clogging. Never encountered square ground either. Different markets.
My reasoning for going.063 on my new bar from cannon is all the advantages it has after researching and the final straw of pulling the trigger was after having a good conversation with the owner of Cannon about it.

Walnut Beast

Thanks Larry! I might give that semi square a go! 

Skeans1

@Walnut Beast 
If you're going to run square get a square grinder and have enough chains to run for the day plus one or two extra just in case. Don't worry about filing it if production is a must because if the corner is off you're done, too high and it's dull and too low you get a beak which cuts great for a minute. Another thing to think about is the angles you're running depending on what you're cutting that will probably change as well, different species I have different angles I run as well as different times of the year. Just for an idea out of the box square is worthless it doesn't cut well at all, it normally needs the rakers taken down and normally once you get a decent grind it'll come alive.

As far as semi skip it's fine but with the shorter bars depending on how aggressive the chain is and what sprocket you're running you'll probably want full comp. 

Walnut Beast

Skeans I might want to re think things . The 404 Stihl chain I was thinking about only came in full skip. I think I will go with the Stihl Rapid Super. They don't show it in the new catalog but it must be offered in the big spools because Baileys has the Stihl chain and will make it to length. Appreciate the insight!

beenthere

Bailey's is not an authorized Stihl dealer. Might this chain be a knock-off from China? 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

lxskllr

They deal in grey market Stihl. I don't know where they get their stuff, but it's an irregular supply. I ordered 25' of chain from them via amazon, and it came as a partly used 100' reel. I guess I got 25'. I didn't measure it.

moodnacreek

Chisel chain allows you to cut with the tip of the bar. Chisel chain is sharpened to an exact point and that alone makes it aggressive. That point dulls quickly compared to chipper or simi chisel. Carry a file and use it.

Nealm66

You might check madsens in centralia Washington for the chain in a loop you're looking for. They ship all over the world. You can round file chisel chain with decent results. It won't cut like a chisel grind but still better than round file chain. Chisel grinding at least for me took quite a while to get dialed in. I've wore out three chisel grinders through the years and it's always a struggle getting a new one setup. There are a few out there that can hand file and I've had the privilege to work around one but it was just for touching up in mt st Hellen's ash otherwise he said it was better to grind. I'd probably just try round filing to start is what I'm saying

Old Greenhorn

There is Square chisel and Round chisel. The round filed has a square corner on the outside of the tooth but is sharpened with a round file so it's a bit of a compromise. The square filed has a square corner on the outside and the inside of the tooth and you need a 6 corner file or equivalent. It's a big difference (to me). There are no fancy guides for square filing, you have to learn to do it by hand and if the inside filed corner does not break out exactly where the outside square corner is, you are wasting your time and it will cut poorly. Most of the production fallers use a Silvey grinder to sharpen their square chains which does a perfect job with the right operator.
 Square filing takes time a patience to learn, but I found it worthwhile. I also found sharpening in the field to go fairly easy too and faster without a guide. However, a rocked Square filed chain takes a long time to bring back into form, so care in cutting habits are more important. I just got out of the habit and now run all X-cut chains which cut great.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Nealm66

That's the problem with chisel grinding or chisel filling vs round filing is if you don't get the corners and the angles right you might as well put it on backwards 

Nealm66

It's funny how the falling industry going more mechanized has funneled down the chisel grinder design. There used to be some elaborate devices out there. Madsens had Silvey copy a simington design and now that's all Silvey makes. This basic design was considered a  low end grinder or a starter grinder they referred to it. Now they're at the top of the heap.

Real1shepherd

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on January 22, 2023, 10:13:18 AM
There is Square chisel and Round chisel. The round filed has a square corner on the outside of the tooth but is sharpened with a round file so it's a bit of a compromise. The square filed has a square corner on the outside and the inside of the tooth and you need a 6 corner file or equivalent. It's a big difference (to me). There are no fancy guides for square filing, you have to learn to do it by hand and if the inside filed corner does not break out exactly where the outside square corner is, you are wasting your time and it will cut poorly. Most of the production fallers use a Silvey grinder to sharpen their square chains which does a perfect job with the right operator.
Square filing takes time a patience to learn, but I found it worthwhile. I also found sharpening in the field to go fairly easy too and faster without a guide. However, a rocked Square filed chain takes a long time to bring back into form, so care in cutting habits are more important. I just got out of the habit and now run all X-cut chains which cut great.
There were hand jigs for filing square file chains made by Granberg. I have one, it worked great but suffered over the many yrs from being made of mostly pot metal. I have plans to make one out of the current jig they sell but have gotten zero interest from anybody with machinist tools. I've posted on forums about this and even approached a local machinist who was talking crazy money.

There's a guy on AS that said he'd make the ends for me.....I guess I should prod him one more time. I have pics of the complete Granberg square file unit(Model G-107, Chisel Bit), but it says I can't upload these extensions I pulled off of Google. They quit making the square file unit in the late 80's.

There are also fixed guides for square file 3/8" chain.....I don't remember the name offhand, but they are somewhat spendy. They don't do .404 full skip

Kevin

Nealm66

One advantage to chisel filling vs the basic grinders offered today is the ability to be more corner to corner without grinding into the side straps. Maybe it would be feasible to modify one of the mounted style round file guides but one would have to have a good understanding of what the end product should be. I'd say this would be the difficult part. You could copy a factory but would be leaving a bit on the table 

Skeans1

Quote from: Nealm66 on January 22, 2023, 11:03:33 AM
It's funny how the falling industry going more mechanized has funneled down the chisel grinder design. There used to be some elaborate devices out there. Madsens had Silvey copy a simington design and now that's all Silvey makes. This basic design was considered a  low end grinder or a starter grinder they referred to it. Now they're at the top of the heap.
Silvey is gone has been for years. As far as grinders go the swing arm is ok and the only thing that's available now, but personally I prefer our pro sharp it has more adjustment.

Walnut Beast

Quote from: beenthere on January 21, 2023, 10:21:05 PM
Bailey's is not an authorized Stihl dealer. Might this chain be a knock-off from China?
This should answer your question

  

Walnut Beast

Quote from: lxskllr on January 21, 2023, 10:48:20 PM
They deal in grey market Stihl. I don't know where they get their stuff, but it's an irregular supply. I ordered 25' of chain from them via amazon, and it came as a partly used 100' reel. I guess I got 25'. I didn't measure it.
I find that hard to believe! So what did you do to resolve the problem?  I ordered a cannon chainsaw bar from them recently  and it came fast and brand new

Ianab

Don't think there was anything to resolve? If he thought he was being ripped off in some way he would have measured it, and complained if it was short. But if you order 25 ft, and get what looks like 25ft, it doesn't really matter if it's 1/4 of a 100 ft roll.  

My guess is that 4 x 25 spools is worth more than a 100 ft spool. Not everyone want's 100 ft of chain though. So breaking it into 4 smaller packs probably saves a few dollars. As long as everyone get's their fair 25 ft length there isn't a problem. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

lxskllr

Like Ian said, it isn't really a problem. Factory sealed boxes are nice, but in the end, I probably got the 25' of chain I ordered. I didn't measure it, so it could be more or less. I got a bunch of tiestraps. It's more than half a 100' reel of ties.

It isn't illegal or against any kind of terms for Baileys to sell Stihl stuff, but whoever's supplying them could get in trouble if Stihl found out if it's coming from an official dealer; it probably is, or more likely, several dealers.

moodnacreek

Have any of you ever seen the Mt. Saint Helens chainsaw chain with the scraper teeth?

Nealm66

Never heard of it. I cut for 6-7 years around st Hellen's before the owl shut us down. It was hard on chains. Had to chop the bark off where it was feasible to get any kind of lifespan. 

Walnut Beast

Quote from: lxskllr on January 23, 2023, 07:52:00 AM
Like Ian said, it isn't really a problem. Factory sealed boxes are nice, but in the end, I probably got the 25' of chain I ordered. I didn't measure it, so it could be more or less. I got a bunch of tiestraps. It's more than half a 100' reel of ties.

It isn't illegal or against any kind of terms for Baileys to sell Stihl stuff, but whoever's supplying them could get in trouble if Stihl found out if it's coming from an official dealer; it probably is, or more likely, several dealers.
I don't blame you for making sure you get what you paid for! I wouldn't like it either! 

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