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I know you don't want to hear this, but....

Started by DouginUtah, July 06, 2005, 12:40:09 PM

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UNCLEBUCK

I seen on the weather channel recently they showed how the greenpeace team of explorers that planned to cross the arctic circle in kayaks like last month had to call in the rescue squad and cancel their mission of showing global warming . The cause of the cancellation was "too cold and too many snowstorms" :D
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Ron Wenrich

Buzz

That's pretty much my point.  No one says you can't have whatever you want or can afford.  You have a right to be a pig if you want to.  When people start to realize that consumption shouldn't be the driving force in their lives, things will change.  A recent poll says that 78% of the people will alter their driving habits at $3/gal.

DanG

Name a president in recent history that hasn't talked about all those things.  The last one I remember was Nixon. 

Now, name a president that has done anything about it.  The last one I remember is Ford.  WIN garden, energy rebates, etc.  Also seen as a failure because he couldn't capture the public's imaginagtion.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

DanG

Doug, "y'all" is plural.  That statement wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.  I do find it disturbing that you think the President's statement is remarkable, though, since he's been saying this all along.  That was my only point.  I don't disagree with your passion for conservation, but I don't happen to think that "Armageddon" is just around the corner. I do think that we should be addressing the energy problems and other environmental concerns before we get to that point.

As I said before, we are on the same side here.  Just because we have differing opinions on the route doesn't mean we don't have the same destination. ;)

Ron, I seem to remember that Nixon extended Daylight Savings Time because of the energy crunch.  So, even he did something, however pawltry the effort was. ::)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Gunny

Maybe the conversation is becoming confused in the midst of some considerations of personal "rights" vs. the elementary  "social contract."  Where does one's "right" to do as he/she pleases begin to impose upon the rights of others?

One of my neighbors thought he had the right to fill my home with the toxic fumes from the creosoted RR ties he decided to burn just before daybreak one Sunday morning not long ago (we awakened to our smoke detectors blaring--since we almost always leave our windows fully opened during nice weather--and my wife, then six months pregnant, choking on the fumes.  I'm sure the idiot felt he had every "right" to do as he pleased since he was doing it on the land he owns.  Well, I confronted him and his reply to my asking him to drench the mess was "Well, if they don't like breathing the fumes, just close the windows and stay inside."  A call to the local RFD brought the fire chief and a notice to the moron that the next incident would cost him about $1,000 bucks in local fines, not including the very real posiibility of a federal lawsuit.  The state DEQ and Attorney General's office were kind enough to correspond with the fool, too.  Who worries about foreign terrorists when we have numbskulls like him?  Why concern ourselves with what Osama Bin Anybody might do to us when we defile the very air, waters, and lands we hold so dear?  Had anyone in a similar "forum" shouted, back in the '70s,  that we'd all be guzzling bottled water by now he/she would have been stoned from the soapbox.

So, just where does our personal gluttony become a burden upon those "others" amongst us?  There are some voices of reason and logic echoing similar concerns within this thread.  Nothing is going to be resolved by those who have been doing the talking--regardless of political affiliations--in the suits.  Each and every one of us should reflect upon those actions we, individually, might initiate which would lead us all towards those better tomorrows I think we all desire.  I owe it to my children and to my grandchildren.  To do less would be a sin of omission. 

crtreedude

Normally I don't bring up what we are doing down here because it really isn't part of the group (except when I am trying to figure out what to do with the wood.) Besides, to a large degree it is a personal thing what we are doing and I don't expect others to do it.

We are trying to bring back the rainforest here in Costa Rica and figure out ways for people to do it easily. I spent a lot of years making some people I don't particularly like very wealthy, so I figured I would go and use some of those same skills to help people who are just trying to earn a living and at the same time try to improve the planet some, instead of leaving it worse than they found it.

I had one person tell me something that really hit home. She said she doesn't want to face her grandchildren and explain why she didn't care what was happening and did nothing.

Perhaps my feeling is this: If I were to camp on your property, I would expect to leave it at least as good as I found it, if not better. I feel I have the same responsibility toward my life here on the earth. I don't own the earth - I really don't feel like I own any of it. Hard to own something that will outlive me. Now I will say at times I think the land we take care of owns me... :)

I think we are in the mess we are with drinking water, etc. because we expect the next generation to solve our problems, instead of trying not to create them.  It is so much cheaper and better not to make a problem, than to clean it up. Unfortunately, I notice those doing the cleaning are rarely those who made the mess. (If my mom read that she would probably bring up my behavior in my own bedroom and how often she had to threaten me to get me to clean it.)

I won't be able to cure deforestation I suspect - or even put a significant dent in it. It is a bigger problem than a single person can effect - but if each person thinks about their impact to the world instead of how can I have whatever I want - we might actually make a dent. I was raised that I should FIRST think of the people around me. You know, when I do that, they tend to think about me too. There are exceptions for sure.

Just so people understand - I really doubt we can hurt the earth to a substantial degree - but we could do a pretty good job on ourselves. I value us - and we live here - it might be a good idea to take care of our home.

Okay, rant off.

just my dos colones

So, how did I end up here anyway?

DanG

Didn't sound like a rant to me.  Rather it sounded like a well-reasoned statement of your position, and that of most of us here. :)

My efforts are not nearly as ambitious as yours, but I'm trying to do my bit by making usable materiels from trees that would otherwise be wasted.  I'm not doing that so much as a political statement, as one of personal economics.  I get the logs for free. ;D  That doesn't alter the fact that what I'm doing has a positive effect, though.  I have also changed my driving habits, again because of personal economics rather than my concern for the environment.  It is not that I'm not concerned, or that I wouldn't do these little things for that reason, but it is a rather happy coincidence. :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

crtreedude

DanG,

(I didn't just swear then, did I  ???)

And I sure don't have an issue with what you are doing. I am not out to "convert" people to my way of thinking, but just say what I am doing. I definitely am of the opinion that a person who does something that is helping for whatever reason is better than someone who talks a good game and does nothing.

You would be welcome in my home, and on my fincas - but perhaps without your saw...   :D

I do think that making it so that environmental concerns are tied to the hip-pocket-nerve is a good idea. Makes it really easy to get the point.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

OneWithWood

Quote from: crtreedude on July 07, 2005, 10:11:41 AM

IJust so people understand - I really doubt we can hurt the earth to a substantial degree - but we could do a pretty good job on ourselves. I value us - and we live here - it might be a good idea to take care of our home.


In the end the earth wins.  As with most species that grew to overcapacity the eco system will correct the blight.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

DanG

Just trying to be honest about my motives, Fred. :)  Why can't I bring my saw?  'Fraid I'll saw up yer whole forest? ;D :D :D  Considerin' your growth rates and my work rate, I don't think you'd have much to worry about. :D :D

Doug, I went back and re-read your energy piece.  I don't have the time or inclination to try and verify all of your facts, so I just accept them as you wrote them. :)  When it all boils down, it doesn't really matter if you are right or wrong.  It's gonna run out when it runs out.  When it does, most folks are gonna view it as a crisis. :o :o   I guess that I differ with most people in what I think constitutes a crisis.  I tend to view the energy crunch as an opportunity for a grand adventure.  I happen to believe that the world needs to slow down.  We have been enslaved by our "wants" to the point that we have lost sight of our "needs."  We don't HAVE to get from here to Atlanta in half an hour, we just want to.  We don't HAVE to go to town daily, we just want to.  Etc, etc.

To put it on a more personal level;  On the rare occasions that I run out of beer, my first tendency is to declare a crisis.  Even though I want another one, I know I'm better off without it.  The next morning, I'm usually glad I ran out.   It wasn't a crisis at all. :D :D :D
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

crtreedude

I fear what would happen to my forest if both you and FDH are here....  :o

Yes, the world will adjust, I just happen to hope that our civilization doesn't collapse because of it. It won't be the first.

In this area (actually just a little North) the indigeous people pretty much denuding everything - and then the Spanards came. Given the fact they engaged in human sacrifices, I don't really weep for them, but if they had protected their resources it is a good chance they would still be here and I wouldn't be learning Spanish - but some other language.

I am a little concerned about the future of the USA which is so dependent on cheap fossil fuels. The world is a dangerous place - which is especially seen this morning in London.

Eventually the cost of fossil fuels will be too high to use for fuel - because they are used for things more important as well. It seems to make sense to slow down the use now instead of waiting for the crunch to hit.

For example, if you knew that your sixpack of beer was the last there was ever going to be - would you drink it all at once, or would you space them out?

So, how did I end up here anyway?

Patty

Women are Angels.
And when someone breaks our wings....
We simply continue to fly ........
on a broomstick.....
We are flexible like that.

crtreedude

That's because you have your eye on a Chevy Suburban.... ;)
So, how did I end up here anyway?

Rod

I was talking to the guy who checks the gas well in this hollow.He said his company has a few oil wells,but they don't run them because they can't make any money of those wells.

crtreedude

Yep, that is the meaning of peak oil - the cheap stuff is running out - the other stuff is more expensive to extract.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

johnjbc

There is a lot of alternate Energy available Water Power, Wind Power, Geo Power, Solar Power and a lot of others. The only problem is that it isn't enough for 6 billion People. So unless science comes up with something new we will be like the lemmings rushing into the sea. >:( >:(
Do you member back in the middle of the last century:

When you could afford to buy a farm.
When you could go for a Sunday afternoon ride and enjoy it.
When all the ground wasn't posted No Hunting.
LT40HDG24, Case VAC, Kubota L48, Case 580B, Cat 977H, Bobcat 773

flip

Where is the break even point?  If I install a wood burning boiler to heat my home do the emissions from my boiler exceed the amount of pollution it takes to produce the electricity to run a heat pump?  I don't have the answers but being in the automotive business I can tell you cars are cleaner than they ever have been.  Diesel trucks are now having the noose tightened around their necks.  If you are a thriving economy there is no other ways to compete in the global market besides growth. 

Remember the early industrial age, nasty, dirty no standards for waste from factories.  We have evolved since then, let's not kid ourselves into thinking we are as dirty as we were.  We will eventyally reach a point where we won't be competitive because it is costing us too much to be clean.  So are we at or near this point yet?  It is about economics and environment at the same time, China and India don't care if it causes a factory more money to produce the same good, heck most of the stuff we buy is made in another country.  And why you ask?  Cheaper, less restrictions, cheaper, less red tape, cheaper.  In any way you look at it we, by buying form countries that have little or no controls on dumping or emissins, are contributing to what we are trying to reduce-kinda bass ackwards  ??? ::) :o
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

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