head saw

tbish · February 20, 2013, 10:11:40 PM

i got an old mill the saw is non removeable bits or teeth how do u sharpen these iv had expierience with the removeable teeth only thanks for any help or should i get removeable blade

drobertson · February 20, 2013, 10:22:15 PM

Howdy tbish, what kind of an ole saw is it, it seems like the blade should come off some how, I'm not much in circle saws, but have been around a few, welcome to the forum, someone will come on with some good info, david

tbish · February 20, 2013, 10:26:23 PM

howdy the blade is removeable i think its a liddel made in stlouis mo i should of said the teeth on the blade arent removeable

Magicman · February 20, 2013, 10:32:00 PM

I am no help with a circle, but Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

drobertson · February 20, 2013, 10:38:13 PM

I would have to guess that a saw jockey would be one way, It might be a good idea to take the blade to a saw shop and have them give it a going over, being older it may need to be set and hammered, it would be fun to run it first and see how it cuts, maybe a small log for starters,?

tbish · February 20, 2013, 10:45:38 PM

i know a little history on the mill it was setn like it was just shut off and let set for 30yrs i remember last owners sawing with it he has passed away now so no help there

drobertson · February 20, 2013, 10:52:51 PM

Man, if this thing was running, and now is just rusty, a good going over might be all it needs, sounds simple, but probably quite the job, as any refurbish is, still, grab some kroil, or liquid penetrant, wire brush and a grease gun and go for it. tool box in hand, might even need a torch if anything is really seized up, sounds like fun, if you have the time, you might be sitting on a gem, even if the blade needs work or replaced, the guts are all there right? power sorce? which leads me to think is it belt driven, if so might need belts, still sounds like a good project if you have time and some resources,

beenthere · February 20, 2013, 11:09:54 PM

Without inserted teeth, not sure how a saw jockey would sharpen it.

A pic of the saw blade and close-up of the teeth would help a lot.

Some dimensions of the saw blade diam. and the carriage size, and husk would help too.

Ron Wenrich · February 21, 2013, 06:16:10 AM

I've never been around a blade that didn't have inserted teeth other than old buck saws and cut off saws. Those you need a file to sharpen them, and you might need something to put set into them. It wouldn't be something I would fool with, as you have a learning curve to get over and very few people that know much about that type of saw. Go over to an inserted blade and catch up on 50 years of technology. It'll make your life simpler.

bandmiller2 · February 21, 2013, 06:24:31 AM

Bish,alot depends on the condition of the teeth and gullets.The problem with solid tooth saw is every so often they must be gummed out,that is the gullets filed/ground deeper.You will need a swedge to spread the tooth tips for clearance.With a little luck you can clean up the saw,swedge and file the teeth and use it. I would look for a used incerted tooth saw though.You need to be sure you don't spread the tips too much and keep the proper angle on the face of the tooth,they sell a little gauge for that.Good luck, I have an old 48" solid tooth saw but have never tried to use it. Frank C.

tbish · February 21, 2013, 07:07:37 AM

thanks alot guys info is alot of help im not good on computers pics may b a problem the mill is belt driven carriage is free slides back and forward power source for a while will b a tractor untill i find a power plant i havent had a chance to measure the blade yet 3 head carriage wiyh wood frame fir im assuming track rails are wood as well as the husk it has a saw dust chain really a neat old mill should be interesting

york · February 21, 2013, 07:11:30 AM

HI,around here,many people will take an old saw like what you have there,give it a paint job and the name of there business,mount on a 6by6 post,out by the road...

albert

drobertson · February 21, 2013, 08:38:27 AM

tbish, beenthere was right about the jockey not working, if I understood a good friend right, last night, there is a grinder made for the older blades like yours, the gullets have to be ground and indexed properly, keeping the timing in sinc. then resetting, as mentioned, file the cuttting edge and try it, otherwise a newer blade with inserts would be recommended. Hope you get it going, david

jimparamedic · February 22, 2013, 09:38:53 AM

There are directions on the internet on how to sharpen these saws. But the best way is to find an oldtime sawyer and pick his brain. Ower older people are a forgotten resource that love to hand down the info that they have.(some times you just have to be patient and listen to what they say) I have a solid tooth saw looks to have started as a 50-52" saw it now is around 49". These saws cut great but dont like rocks and metal they can be pricey to fix. I keep mine as a back up now. I have been offered $200 for it but hate to see a good saw destroyed for art when there are junk saws almost every where.

jimparamedic · February 22, 2013, 09:41:38 AM

By the way good to have another round sawyer. And where are you located.

tbish · February 23, 2013, 08:50:28 AM

im in soutern il i got a swedge with the mill from the old gentleman it was his dads mill they bought it from a neighbor around 1950 he just didnt want to see it scraped gave me a realy good deal on it

captain_crunch · February 23, 2013, 12:49:21 PM

Another thing to consider is if you were to (or rather when) you hit something that was not suspost to be in log insert teeth are easier to deal with

GeneWengert-WoodDoc · February 23, 2013, 01:35:09 PM

One option would be to send it to a saw shop and have them cut it smaller and put in inserted teeth. We had a 56" cut down to around 48". Probably depends on the plate thickness.

I recall one mill with a saw like this and he would gum the gullets of every third tooth each time he sharpened. He used a small file. After three sharpening a, he had done all the gullets and started over again.

Certainly, one tough item will be keeping the hook angle constant from tooth to tooth if sharpened by hand. I have seen a tooth profile cut out of metal that you would slip onto each tooth to check the angles. I may have it in my junk box and if so will post a picture...or maybe someone else has a picture.

jimparamedic · February 23, 2013, 08:19:25 PM

It would be cheaper to buy a used saw than to have one cut for holders and teeth. That's why I keeped mine as a spare blade. It is sharp and ready to go.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc · February 23, 2013, 08:41:49 PM

Jim has a good idea indeed if you can find a used saw with the correct size hole for the mandrill. One advantage of cutting your saw down is that it would also be tensioned before they sent it back. You might find that a used blade will need tensioning to the rpm of your mill.

Incidentally, with your present teeth, you will need to swage them. There is a special small hand tool for doing that...you put the tool on the tooth and then hit the end of the tool with a hammer. That spreads the metal on the end of the tooth so that the kerf will be wider than the saw plate...the process is called swaging and the tool is called a swage. I have always heard this word pronounced as though it were spelled swedge.

Corley5 · February 23, 2013, 09:32:53 PM

Gumming with a file ??? Any gumming I've seen or done was with a gummer with the saw off the mill.

ALWOL · February 23, 2013, 10:11:50 PM

Corey is right, it is all but impossible to do a proper job of gumming with a file or grinder. Here is a pic of the machine designed for doing the job.

Now days we use a vertical mill and rotary table.

Alan

GeneWengert-WoodDoc · February 23, 2013, 10:22:13 PM

I saw this file gumming of a circle saw without inserted teeth only once. It was really fascinating to watch. The tool above is fascinating. How does it remove metal? Is it used after each sharpening or after several sharpenings?

I do not know if everyone knows that the inserted tooth was patented in 1851 with the Hoe patent being dated 1878 and then Simmonds in 1885. They were quickly adopted by the industry. Today, we still use the Hoe teeth (2-1/2, 3, 4, and 4-1/2) or Simmonds teeth (B, D, F). So, being that old, it is really rare to see a large diameter circular head saw without inserted teeth.

Brings to mind a question: Does anyone check the edges of the shanks on an inserted tooth circular saw and if they are getting a bit rounded, does anyone sharpen them to help keep sawdust in the gullet?

Corley5 · February 23, 2013, 10:31:16 PM

I've got four solid tooth saws hanging on the wall in the mill. Grandpa used them and prefered them over an insert tooth. I used one for a while and gummed and reswaged it once and it even worked ;D The next time I had one of the style 3 insert tooths worked on have used it since. Not that I saw that much anyway. Haven't ran it in a couple years now but need to saw some cherry for interior trim work when the weather warms up a bit.

ALWOL · February 24, 2013, 05:30:29 PM

Here is a pic of the cutter used in machine above.

The problem with gumming by hand, is that the plate will become out of round and not take an equal cut with all teeth. Also swaging is done with a machine that presses the tips of the teeth outwards. A standard upset swage for insert bits will simply bend most of the teeth when struck with a hammer. A standard upset swage can be used in a pinch if the teeth are backed up with a anvil or hammer to provide some support.

Alan