Slab flattening, table flattening, flattening in general

[Crusarius]

So if you guys had an option to have someone come in and spend some time in your shop with their machine for flattening slabs, would there be a demand for that?

I am just brainstorming to find out if there would be a demand. In my mind I think there should be a pretty high demand with the huge value add that would be performed.

Any insight would be great. Thanks for any help.

[Stephen1]

I bring in a Monster Mill to saw any big logs I get. He can saw 52" on a portable mill. 
Yes would be my answer. I would bring in someone to flatten slabs for me. I bet there are  carpenter shops around that would also do something like that. 
We had a guy 30 mins away that had a 52 planer sander that did work for a lot of contractors flattening counter tops and table builds for them. They also sold them the slabs , joined them.
They have gone the the way of designer/big customers and they do not do custom work anymore. I also heard today they they were bought out by someone even bigger and do not deal with the little guy at all. Half the staff has left and no one to run their 3 saw mills. 

[scsmith42]

We use multiple methods for flattening slabs.

25" and under is run through a jointer / planer.  Today they have 52" machines which would be great to have.  This is the fastest method and the machine is the most versatile.

Wider than 25" if the slab is really twisted we will use the Peterson swing blade mill to flatten and then run it through a 52" three head wide belt sander to finish it off.

They make wide sanding planers which would also be an option.

Business wise, it depends upon the slab market in your area. If my area it's pretty strong.

[rusticretreater]

I did a quick search for on-site slab flattening service and did not find anyone who did it on a customer's site.  Lots of in-house offerings though.

So I'm gonna go full negative here.  A lot of questions to ask, a lot of conditions to be met to do it safely and well.

You have no idea what you will find when you get there.  Guys will say yeah plenty of room, big workbench and then you find out its saw horses and plywood.  :D  Then there will be the guys with wood that shouldn't even be considered to be used, or will tear up your bits.  Try setting up in some guy's driveway where its "level".  Or an old guy who expects you to move the 300 pound board around yourself.

Better to set up in your own shop where you can control the environment, have them bring it to you and then you can say yay or nay.  Your costs and processes will also be consistent.

[Ianab]

A decent size CNC machine might be an option?

It can do all sorts of work. Carved panels, cutting out sheet product for cabinets, or simply levelling big slabs of wood. 

For a smaller operation. a multi purpose machine like that keeps your options open. While it might be overkill for simple slab flattening, if you can rent it out for '$x" an hour, no matter what it's actually doing, as long as it gets the job done, for sensible $$

[customsawyer]

I get calls to flatten slabs fairly regular. None have ever asked if I would come to them. As precise as I like to keep my machine, it would take one heck of a check to get me to move it. The other thing it takes is support equipment.

[tmbrcruiser]

I am asked to flatten slabs from time to time. I generally cut slabs 3" to allow for twisting. My mill is able to cut 26", so most of the slabs I cut are book match sets. To flatten slabs I'll put them back on the mill after drying, split the twist from end to end using cedar shake shingles to shim up the slab. Resaw the face and flip to flatten the other side. After resawing I can generally get most slabs through the 25" planner. Wider slabs I split with a track saw, follow the same procedure and joint back together using dominos. I work with what I have right or wrong, just trying to do the best I can.

[YellowHammer]

As a business it would greatly depend on price, quantity and reliability of the owner of the service as to whether I would hire someone or not.  I would need it done by the pallet load and I would need it done when I needed it done.

We do have some local companies that have big CNC machines they use for slab flattening but they charge retail "one off" prices mainly for the people who have done wide glue ups for tables and such, but the retail price of several hundred dollars per slab knocks it out of the wholesale market for people like me.

  

[Crusarius]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to answer. This kinda gives me some ideas and more questions. I guess I never thought about conditions at a customer's site. That is a very good thought.

The machine that I have designed is specifically designed for easy breakdown, relocate and setup. I have removed all of the CNC capability from it and am making a dumb slab flattener that will run a pattern till it hits the limits. The head will be changeable from cutter to sander.

Today they have 52" machines which would be great to have.  This is the fastest method and the machine is the most versatile.

wow, I had no idea they were offering machines this size. First one I found was $84k. Even more ouch! I think I could flatten a lot of slabs for that much

I have offered in house slab flattening and have had no takers. I wonder how most people flatten the slabs they cut. Maybe it is because customers buy green slabs and then sit on them and have no idea how to make them work?

My primary purpose for the question is of course to bring in some money for me, but I feel this service would really help free up sawmill owners that want to have a value add to their raw materials.

I could show up flatten slabs while the owner was off doing something more important. I would also be a contractor so no need to deal with employee costs, or insurances required for another employee.

This post has kind of been a brain dump for me so it probably makes no sense. Especially not in any specific order.

I don't know. I have been working as a part time letter carrier at the post office. I have learned I am not to much into the job. Way to high stress for way too little pay and 6-day work weeks if I get my own route. I am trying to get a real job again, what's funny is a person that has "Military Aerospace Prototype" title should be pretty easy to get a job? Right? Why is it never easy for me?

I have already landed a snow removal position running a loader this winter, but last winter was a bummer and very little snow. I am not expecting much more this year.

So if I can figure out what I can do where I can help people and feel accomplished at the end of the day I am all for it. Of course making some money along the way would be greatly appreciated.

Anybody have any ideas for me? I do love the freedom I have not having a full time job. Great to spend more time with the family.

[Ianab]

Have you considered a swing blade sawmill, with planer and sanding heads? 

It's portable by design, and is basically a multi-function tool. 

[Crusarius]

that is way out of my price range. The automatic router would be much better use of money. Also less likely for tearout with a rotary cutter instead of planer head.

[blackhawk]

that is way out of my price range. The automatic router would be much better use of money. Also less likely for tearout with a rotary cutter instead of planer head.

The Lucas planer head is a rotary cutter.  It has 10 carbide inserts that can be rotated.  I have one for my Lucas but have not had an occasion to use it yet. With my Lucas, I could flatten close to a 60" x 20' slab.  Lucas also sells a sanding attachment.  The one hurdle with the Lucas is that you need a log or table to set the slab on in order to flatten it.  I have been trying to come up with a quick setup table that can be broken down when not in use.


 

[Crusarius]

depending on your budget using minitec or other aluminum extrusions would work very well. That is my idea for quick easy breakdown movable table.

Thanks for taking the time to post about that. that really is a sweet setup.

[Stephen1]

You have built this unit, so , 
Is it easy to run or do you have to be an 'Military Aerospace Prototype' to run it?
How much is it worth to sell? 
Can you make them and sell them?

[Crusarius]

Stephen, my original plan was to build the machine and make it available for sale. Unfortunately, the more I got into it, the more I realized someone that is not technologically savvy will have a very hard time using the machine. I would be on the phone all the time just for tech support.

My new design takes it from a full CNC machine to a dumb automated router. All that would be involved is to set the slab on the table, level it, zero the start point and set limit switches for the end points then hit "run". The cutter would then run a preprogrammed pattern until it hits the end and shuts off. Once that happens you would need to adjust the Z height and run it again until you have reached the desired finish. After this happens change over to sander and let it go again.

With inflation the cost of the current machine ended up too high to hit the target market at almost 10k. With the new design I remove a lot of the cost of a full CNC machine and therefore think I am able to hit a price point closer to $6000.

[Stephen1]

I like the idea of it. Especially if it is a knock down design so you do not have to leave it set up full time. 

[Crusarius]

basically designing the pieces of the bed to fit in the 5.5' bed of my truck (3 sections). Hopefully all under the cover. Then I was planning a small roof tube rack setup that I could put the full length pieces in and close them to keep the pieces clean. Gantry may end up as 1 piece in the cab with me. but the motor is probably 90 pounds itself so that will need to be removed to make the gantry manageable.

I estimate approximately 1 maybe up to 2 hours for full setup. Biggest thing is I will need 220 power.

[TW]

I sometimes get asked to flatten a few slabs and I often use rough sawn slabs as raw material for what I make. So far I haven't come across anything locally that my 24" jointer/planer combination could not handle.
When that happens I will need to ask an aquintance who has a 32" Jonsered stand alone thicknesser.

[blackhawk]

I think that you can definitely make money flattening slabs.  I have flattened several slabs on my CNC in the past few weeks for other people at $50 per hour.  I just don't think the "mobile" part of your idea would be a selling point.  Customers really just want to drop them off to me, not think about it, then come and pick up the finished slab.  In one case, I spent 6 hours flattening an 44" x 84" epoxy table top.  Most people really wouldn't want me hanging out at their property for 6 hours if I did flattening on-site.  You also need good dust collection to remove all the chips and dust as your are cutting.  That would be very difficult to do on-site if you have to bring all that equipment with you also.   

I would also suggest having a manual move mode on your machine.  Many times I get large slabs where there are two corners that are really high in just a small area.  In these cases, I manually move the CNC router over these areas and knock them down quick.  After I get the worst areas knocked down, then I setup the CNC to automatically run over the entire slab.  If you start automatic over the entire slab, you waste a lot of time just cutting air.

[Crusarius]

blackhawk, thanks for the input. my plan was not to go to random ppl's houses but if a business wanted a pile of slabs flattened then that would be the mobile part. Around here ppl are to cheap to pay me to flatten slabs so I think the sawmills would be a better business plan for me.

I have been thinking about the manual move idea. I am glad you mentioned that. It does make a lot of sense to be able to manually take of high spots then run the pattern. I almost need to be able to disable the drive on the stepper motors. But worst case scenario I just deactivate the steppers and do it that way.

[tyofwa]

blackhawk, thanks for the input. my plan was not to go to random ppl's houses but if a business wanted a pile of slabs flattened then that would be the mobile part. Around here ppl are to cheap to pay me to flatten slabs so I think the sawmills would be a better business plan for me.

Slab surfacing is a large part of our business.  We charge $10/sf; that covers work on both sides. Sometimes there's a surcharge for overly twisted or very heavy slabs.  Our rate also includes 80 & 120 sanding for removing the flycutter tracks.  That part requires a Rotax sander or equivalent. 

Im not seeing how the business could be portable; perhaps on a flatbed trailer but even then.. there's just too much calibrating to get everything level and co-planar.  The final product is pool-table flat; and as thick as the material will allow.  I just dont see how that can happen with constant recalibration. 

[Ianab]

Im not seeing how the business could be portable

It would be possible to do with a swing blade sawmill, fitted with a planer head (fly cutter) / sanding disc. You could reference the work piece support table off the mill rails that the saw head runs on, so everything would stay true. The mill wouldn't even have to be 100% level, the work piece would follow any slope. As long as you set up with the rails parallel it will cut true. 

Now whether it's a viable business plan? I can't say, but it's just some simple attachments to a standard portable mill, not a whole dedicated machine. Having the extras, even for your own use would mean you could also do it for hire occasionally if someone was willing to pay.

In the video they are using a part sawed log as the "table", becuse it's level with the mill. No reason you couldn't mount a table to the rails if you didn't have a log being cut.

Wood Planer Blade being operated on a Peterson Sawmill - YouTube

[tyofwa]

Im not seeing how the business could be portable

In the video they are using a part sawed log as the "table", becuse it's level with the mill. No reason you couldn't mount a table to the rails if you didn't have a log being cut.

Wood Planer Blade being operated on a Peterson Sawmill - YouTube

Nice system!  I hadn't seen that setup before.  Looks like a good way to go when your reference is set by the log, and each cut can be planed before the next.  We wont put anything on the surfacing table >12% MC; it must go through kiln drying.  Once we were talked into planing "I air dried it for three years" slabs early on, and the wood moved after the client built a table and placed it into a dry living area.  As you say, using the Peterson system with kiln dried slabs would require working with a level bed, which goes back to my earlier point.  Not impossible, but would be challenging. 

[Ianab]

12% is about right for the NZ climate. For most of the US you would want more like 8% for sure, but if we use 8% here the wood gains moisture and moves after if comes out of the kiln. Just one of those regional things due to climate and house designs.

I don't know how practical it would be from a business point of view, but as an example of "How could you do it?", it does work. 

[Brad_bb]

I've slabbed about 10 logs with my chainsaw mill.  I've been utilizing another guy about 50 minutes drive from me.  He has a lucas slabbing mill, 2 nyle kilns, and a woodmizer slab flattener.  So Over the last 2 years I've had him slab a couple big logs for me,  some tree trunks with a fork at the top(hence the need to use a wide slabbing mill like the lucas).  Over the last 6 months, I've been having him do lumber kiln drying for me, but most recently several of my slabbed logs/boules.  I'm having him flatten 5 or so slabs from one log that I know I'm going to use 1-3 of them.  Since he's been slabbing and drying for me, he's charging me $75-$100 per slab for flattening.  This is a little bit lower price than if someone brings their own slab, but because they've done other processing on it....and I'm doing a bunch they'll do that price.  They also charge a lower price for flattening if you buy one of their slabs (that are dry already) and have them flatten it.  I have the ability to flatten up to 24" with my mill planer, but it has straight knives so you have to be careful of tearout if you have changing grain direction like a crotch.    I'm probably not a typical slab flattening customer, but I'm getting ready to build my new home and I'll use some slabs for tables and computer desk etc.  Maybe some counters.  Probably a more typical customer wouldn't be doing as much and might have one or two pieces to work on at a time.   As for sanding, I'm not having him sand the slabs on his flattener.  I figure i'll use my 4x24 belt sander like I often do with timbers.