Advice..... or reality check needed

[starmac]

Three of us are kicking the idea of starting a small logging outfit up.
This would consist of three guys, all three are truckers, all three are or have been equipment operators, two has been mechanics, the other has lots of mechanical ability.
One is a fair to middling hand with a saw (probably wouldn't be doing a lot with a saw.
One is a good hand with a saw.
One grew up with a saw in his hand and was a production faller for several years, but it has been a few years too.
This would be contract cutting and delivering to the mill.
All white spruce, and short skids.

Thinking of starting with a loader, skidder, some kind of dozer, and 2 trucks, possibly another with a self loader.
My question is how much on average could 2 guys hand falling, limbing and bucking, deck up on the landing a day. This would be long logs, they will take 16 footers, but prefer 32,41,47, and 53 footers. The mills crew pretty much does 53 footers, down to 6 in tops.
I currantly haul for a guy that works by himself, with only a saw and trackhoe, and he is consistantly decking and loading a load a day.
Would it be fair to say, two guys could do 2 loads a day consistantly, with a skidder and a real loader throwed in the mix, with possibly a third load threw in one day a weeK?

[sandsawmill14]

i would think you could beat that once you get everything figured out.depending on load size in your area. before i quit logging i could get 1 load a day(84000 max) in pine by myself using a 85 hp tractor to skid and a ford backhoe with forks to load. loading tree length logs is a real pain with forks. i also was trimming with saw. if you get a grapple skidder and use a gate to delimb i would think you would double what you are thinking. when the timber company clear cut the pine that adjions our farm they were running 2 cutters and 2 skidders and averaged 20 loads a day with a couple days they got 25 and this was cutting poles 12" stumps or smaller but i have to say they were the best crew i ever watched work and done a good looking job for a clear cut. the  guy running crew was complaing that they only had 7 trucks hauling and said it was costing them 5 or 6 loads a day

[OH logger]

"ANY partnership is tough".......says my wife :D

[OntarioAl]

A triumvirate is even tougher.
Al

[starmac]

Well I have always felt it was much easier to make a living for myself, than it was for partners too, but the workmans comp in this state pretty much rules out hiring help for a logging type operation.
I am also smart enough to know I can't do it alone, even if it wasn't a huge risk factor.

[Spartan]

We are a three man crew.  have been for some while.  we have a buncher, delimber, skidder, dozer, grader, and hire out the trucking.
by the time you figure on breakdowns, road maintenance, weather, loading trucks, trucks in the middle of the landing and in the way, and doing your own trucking, I would say 1-2 loads a day especially if you are hand processing. on a perfect day, maybe three, but thats a long day.
that has been the average for us.  Buncher or hand falling.  we do pine or large fir and spruce.
don't see how a graple skidder would help with hand falling, but then I don't know the whole picture.  Have always used cable skidders.
your biggest problem may be trying to get two loads to the mill and trying to get two loads put up while the driver is gone.  Just a thought.

Then again, we are in MT and our wood on average is not huge, and shorter, and our ground sucks.  maybe your trees are much nicer.  but then even in nicer stuff, two loads is about what we average.

[Ozarker]

If you are considering an actual partnership, in the legal sense, consider that each partner will also be liable for the business debts of the others, as those debts relate to the partnership. For instance, say one partner doesn't pay taxes on his income. A few years go by, and that partner dies. Then, here comes the IRS to collect on the back taxes, plus interest and penalties. Guess who they'll be looking to collect from? That's just one example. Look into both a limited liability corporation (LLC), or a Sub-Chapter S corp, and determine which would be best suited to your situation. There are other ways, also. If in doubt, consult with a competent tax advisor.

[Logger RK]

Partnership's are  pretty hard to make work most times,is what I've seen through the years. A few years back a couple guys I know did partner up. Bought nice CTL Eq. A year or so go by & everything going good,till one of the guys gets a girlfriend (since the guys already married it didn't go over well with his wife)and starts losing interest in logging. Long story short,I bought the Old C4 Directional shear from the guy that still wanted to make it work. He was losing his house because it was part of the collateral on Eq. He told me he should've stuck with the old C4 & cable Skidder. Thats my opinion on that. But if us's decide to do it,Good Luck👍😎

[florida]

Get rid of the two partners first then you might a chance. With one partner it's hard, with two impossible. Somebody has to be boss and make decisions, you can't do it with a committee.

[CCC4]

Partnerships don't work...too many chiefs and no Indians. As soon as everyone gets tired and ir frustrated...everything will hit the fan. The group will complain about repair bills, only one will pull his share in the work load, on and on...

A faller should get 2 loads on his own even in mediocre wood. If straight scrag, it might be less. Main thing is how well the timber gets out to the landing. I'm in a cut right now where we drop one skidder below a bluff to bunch and another skidder to cable to the top...not very productive but it happens and is working. So needless to say, it doesnt matter what my daily production is as a faller...situations can negate productions.

A faller in good timber can get 4 loads a day and even more if the timber is right...but it has to come out to make it count.

[Spartan]

A faller in good timber can get 4 loads a day and even more if the timber is right...but it has to come out to make it count.

Good point, falling is the easy part.  I can tell you first hand that hand processing spruce is tough work.  one guy will definitely have his hands full just doing that.

What is the ground like?  Steep? flat? water?  New machines or old Iron?  Lot of factors in whether you can produce quickly or not.

There's a lot more that goes into a logging job than just cutting logs and hauling them to the mill.

Is this private or government land? 

[starmac]

Most crews here that process without a processor, don't use a saw except to top the logs, even the mills crew bust the limbs off with the skidder.
The terrain varies, part flat, some sales are mostly flat, but many are hilly.
Talking to the one logger that is using a processor, he is going back to a one man show, his equipment list is feller buncher, dangle head processor, timberjack 450 skidder, cat D4 skidder, cat road grader, D6 dozer, timberjack log loader, service truck, and two gensets to plug everything into at night.
Even with all that equipment, he has laid off his employees, and decided it is cheaper to just run himself.

[stumpjumper83]

Here is what I see...  Dozers are only necessary for building trails, and maybe working slopes.  Therefore stay off steep stuff.  Forget farm tractors, they aren't properly guarded, the tires are not sturdy enough, they are ok for firewood and such but real loggers run skidders.

My equipment list would be the following, Landing loader with de-limber, your cutting long enough stuff a buck saw isn't going to help much. 

Skidders I'm going to want a dual arch combo machine, Don't need to be anything huge, and preferable something like a 240 timberjack, simple, easy to fix, reliable, cheap.

Then you will need something for a cutter, a hydro-axe, bell, something...

I would thing that a well oiled crew should be cutting 2 semi load a day.

[Spartan]

 

Here is what I see...  Dozers are only necessary for building trails, and maybe working slopes. Therefore stay off steep stuff.   

And drifts and deep snow that a grader can't move.  road work.  building road and truck turn arounds.  Getting trucks unstuck when a skidder can't.  pulling stumps and moving rock.

In winter with snow our D6 wont go half the places our rubber tire skidders go and its all steep and rock.  We use our skidders on major butt pucker stuff and they do fine.  Just gotta know the limits.

[starmac]

Dozers here are mandatory to get the road built to start with, but once it is in you don't need it anymore. Everyone has a wide blade they can hang on the skidder and move snow much faster than a grader or dozer.
Skidders will get along a lot better than dozers, but Ice cleats on the dozer makes a world of difference too. If we have trouble with stuck trucks, most will just replace the trucks with drivers that doesn't get stuck. lol

[timberlinetree]

To many cheifs and not enough Indians was an old saying. Good luck with witch ever route you take.