4 speed

[Peter Drouin]

Took a wile, But I found one- GM munze  All rebuilt with a high  out port shaft.
Fitted with a Hurst stick.


 

 

 

 

 
Made a shroud for it, so is not to overheat.


 
Have to do a little work on the front end too.

[Jim_Rogers]

Looks good.

Jim Rogers

[charles mann]

Man, that thing is beautiful. I wouldnt kick it out of the garage. 

[Raider Bill]

What's that bike in the pix?

[Bruno of NH]

Very nice Sir 

[moodnacreek]

That Hurst shifter [competition plus?] cost a lot today.

[Resonator]

She's got a competition clutch with the four on the floor,
And she purrs like a kitten 'til the lake pipes roar. 

[Peter Drouin]

What's that bike in the pix?

2016 1200 sports  the 1945 model look a like.
My brother gave to me.

That Hurst shifter [competition plus?] cost a lot today.

Yes, it is-- an older one all redone. 
Old school Hot Rod, well some new parts too.
Have to get other things to make it work.
Should have everything by winter. 
Shut down the saw mill and get the Hot Rod up and running like I want. 
A fire eating tire burning beast. ;D

She's got a competition clutch with the four on the floor,
And she purrs like a kitten 'til the lake pipes roar.

[K-Guy]

She's got a competition clutch with the four on the floor, And she purrs like a kitten 'til the lake pipes roar.

And if that ain't enough to make you flip your lid
There's one more thing, I got the pink slip, daddy


But I prefer
My pappy said, "Son, you're gonna' drive me to drinkin'
If you don't stop drivin' that Hot Rod Lincoln."

[moodnacreek]

She's got a competition clutch with the four on the floor, And she purrs like a kitten 'til the lake pipes roar.

And if that ain't enough to make you flip your lid
There's one more thing, I got the pink slip, daddy


But I prefer
My pappy said, "Son, you're gonna' drive me to drinkin'
If you don't stop drivin' that Hot Rod Lincoln."

Imagine trying to steer a model A with a 317 truck/Lincoln flat head.

[Peter Drouin]

Have all the stuff cumming to go with the 4 speed. Come Jan 1 I'm closing the mill till April 1
I'll buy logs and work on the HOT ROD this winter.

If Ann could see me now. ;)

[rusticretreater]

I have a 1970 Chevelle SS 396 with a Muncie M20 just like yours(if it hasn't been deeply modified).  I put Doug Nash Hubs in mine years ago.  Forgive me if you know the below information. 

Here is great link that gives a ton of info on the Muncie 4 speed.
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1808-guide-to-muncie-m20-m21-and-m22-four-speed-transmissions/

You probably should print out the info so you have it in case you blow up the trans somehow.

Based on the case casting number, you have a
1970-1974 M20 Wide Ratio

26 spline input shaft
21 tooth output gear
32 spline output shaft

1st 2.52:1
2nd 1.88:1
3rd 1.46:1
4th: 1.01:1
Reverse: 3.11:1

The countershaft has a 1 inch bore and the front bearing is the large size bearing.


I cant see it in the picture, but your tail shaft number should be 3978764 which means Passenger-side mounted speedometer, 32 spline output.

[sawguy21]

 8)  Have fun with it, I'm envious.

[Ianab]

Brings back mixed memories of wrangling a gearbox out of my old GM Australia Torana. 

It originally came with a 161 cube GM 6 , with an Opel sourced 4 speed. I had a warmed up 186 and a GM box very similar to that. Shifter was different, but the side linkages ring some memories. 

By modern standards it was a POS, and I spent way to much time fixing it.  :D  But it would turn heads today just with the exhaust burble. 

[Peter Drouin]

I will look 26 going in 32 going out, I got it from a guy that races cars. It's all new. Thanks for the info.

[rusticretreater]

Glad I could help.  I miss my quarter mileing days, but I would certainly lose my license with todays laws.

[Peter Drouin]

 

[Peter Drouin]

Got the rest of the parts. Come the end of winter, I will have the HOT ROD I want.


 

 
want
Want to do now, But , come winter.   a new song.
Thinking more motor too. dancing-jack smiley_biggrin01

[rusticretreater]

Better check your clutch disc to make sure it has the right number of splines for your muncie.  

I noticed the rear tires in the picture are really small.  I was wondering if you are running a ford 9" and what ratio it will be.  Seems like you need to eat up some rpms with lower gearing.

[Peter Drouin]

Better check your clutch disc to make sure it has the right number of splines for your muncie.  

The first thing I did was to try that. ;)
Guys at Speed-Way are good with help.
No Ford parts on my HOT ROD. ;D

[Peter Drouin]

Rusticvetreater,
At the time of my post, I was trying to ID the rear end. I called some gear head friends of mine to come over and look. Sure enough, it's a Ford 9". Maybe out of a Bronco. They told me I will not break it.
 Now If I put it on the lift mark the tire turn the drive shaft and count the times the tire goes around with 4 turns if the drive shaft will tell me the gears I have without taking it apart.
Told me to go better, go pro-street.

[moodnacreek]

That rear will have to go, not GM  :D.

[btulloh]

That rear will have to go, not GM  :D.

Ford 9 inch is the rear of choice by many, or most, no matter what power plant is being used. I'm looking forward to watching the progress when it's hot rod season. 

[caveman]

If it is out of an early Bronco, it is probably a 28 spline 9".  The 9" out of the F-150's and big Broncos had 31 spline shafts.  I doubt you'll break the axles though.  I've hammered on them pretty hard with 36" tires, spool and a strong 351W.  The 9" is a good rear end that is pretty easy to change ratios on.

I'm glad you are getting some enjoyment out of the hotrod.

[Peter Drouin]

The man I got it from said it was from an Impala-- GM'
I guess He did not know what he's talking about.
He got it from the man that started the build.
Now I'm fixing it right.
I'm watching the talk on the other thread about the video thing'
Maybe I can do it, No wind in the HOT ROD shop. :D
Jan 1 no mill, just Me and the HOT ROD.

[rusticretreater]

No Ford parts eh?  :D

The Ford 9" is considered to be the toughest of all differentials and Nascar has mandated them for many years.  Though the ones used today are aftermarket versions made even better.  The Ford 9" is also the choice of many hot rodders and racers.

You should stick with the differential for several reasons.  One,you already have it.  Two, it has a removable carriage which will hold a wide variety of gear sizes. Three, there is a good supply line for parts.

Very informative article on the Ford 9".
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/ford-9-inch-differentials

You should take it apart and check on things. How else are you going to know if its street worthy?  Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to rebuild it so I know that it will be good when I step on it!

[Walnut Beast]

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2018/10/05/dana-60-vs-gm-12-bolt-vs-ford-9-pros-cons-popular-rear-end-assemblies/

[thecfarm]

I sold a Ford rearend to someone building a rod.

[Greenie]

What type of lubrication are you planning to run in that transmission? 90W gear oil used to be commonly used but now it seems many manual transmissions use ATF.

[Brad_bb]

The best builder of Muncie 4 speeds I've found is Paul Cangialosi at 5speeds.com
He has many of his own parts made for Muncie's and Hurst shifter parts and upgrades. He can supply muncies from 100% new parts with stronger cases, bigger output shafts, and all upgraded parts.  Check out some of his youtube videos like the most recent best upgrades for Muncie 4 speeds, at  Gearbox video, He has a great book on building them too.

[Brad_bb]

If this is going in that coupe in the background, a lightweight car, you may be at the top of first gear real quick.  

Have you Calculated what RPM you'll be running at at 65mph?  I made a spreadsheet with my GTO that I used to determine the rear end gear I needed to run comfortably at highway speeds.  I use the trans gear ratios, the rear end gear ratio, and the rear tire diameter.  I can alter rear end gear ratio and see what RPM I'd be running at, at any given speed.  I could also alter the tire dia, or the trans ratios.  It's a great tool and you can tailor it to what you want to do.

[Peter Drouin]

Thanks for the info.

[moodnacreek]

A good thing to know is at what rpm your engine has the most torque and bee there at highway cruising speed.

[Peter Drouin]

Stopped cutting Jan 1, took two weeks and did nothing, :D
Feb is the time to get the trucks reg and inspected.
The pickup was easy. The one ton- :
All new muffler and pipe that no one makes, I went with an aftermarket one. Had to fab the hangers.
Cut all the rust off the dump, replace with angle iron. :
Re- do the gas fillers--2
Then the spring hangers. :


 

 

And yes that's grease. ;) Only reason I fixed the truck with 70,000 miles on it I love the 5 speed 3 peddle, ;D




Now, I have time,


 

 

 

That spring from L to R is coming out to add leafs. Going to pick up the front end some.


See the spacers, room for 2 spring, Going to put 4 I think.
Will see how it sets. 

[Peter Drouin]

The saw dust on the floor, is where I let the antifreeze go in a 5 gal bucket that had leak. All over the floor the next day when I came out.
:D

[Peter Drouin]

 I got the springs gone, lifted the front end 1 1/2"


Went to replace the timing cover gasket and found the bolt snapped off that holds on the harmonic balancer on.  :
Fix that.
New motor mounts, old ones are junk.


Put on a high flow oil pump, this is the old one.


 
Hit the new one with a small wield, so the pickup screen doesn't fall in the oil pan. Had to grind off the old one.


 
A lot of the old bolts were rusty. Got a box of stainless steel ones for everything.


 
The way it looks now, Will turn on the heat sat and start putting back together


The block## say its a 1963 327 GM says they put them in Vets in 63 and 64. After sat I will cut the floor out to make room for the 4 speed stick to come up, I don't know where it will come up. I will fill in the floor later.

[moodnacreek]

And I am working on a boring jeep. With spring coming a hot rod would be the thing. 'That model a body makes it look like a pup'

[rusticretreater]

I would check on the number of leafs in the springs that other rodders use.  You might have made the front end into a straight axle by making it too stiff.  Most folks use drop spindles to raise or lower the height.

The 327 is a great engine.  The bore and stroke are the same making a fairly powerful, easy revving engine.  It was good for vettes as it didn't put too much weight forward in the car.  I would favor a double roller timing chain & gears or a gear drive. Do you know the specs on the camshaft in the engine?

A good synthetic oil would be good for use in your muncie.  As the car will likely sit a lot, synthetics don't sludge up. If you haven't driven that trans before, the jump between first and second is pretty wide.  Typically you will overrev in first to get a smoother shift into second.  This turned into a problem with Vettes and their powerful engines moving the car easily, so they came up with the M-21 & M22 close ratio transmissions. 

To illustrate: 
2.52 (1st) - 1.88(2nd) = .64 
1.88 - 1.46(3rd) = .42
1.46 - 1.01(4th) = .45

Based on factory torque numbers, you want to calculate rear end ratio and tire sizes to keep your engine in the 2000-2500 rpm range in 2nd/3rd/4th for cruising, 3500 rpm for ripping.  The numbers might be different if you have an aftermarket camshaft.

[Peter Drouin]

The 4 speed is a m22 all rebuilt.  1972
It does have a double roller, flat top pistons and big cam. 

[Patrick NC]

Actually the specs on a 327 are 4" bore and 3.25" stroke. Back when I used to race super stock dirt track cars we always used forged 327 crankshaft because the short stroke made the engine quicker to build rpms than the longer 3.46" stroke of the 350. It's amazing the power you can get from that engine with relatively few modifications. The class I raced in required all parts to be oem or equivalent.  Still managed to dyno over 500hp and run on the track all night at 7500 rpm.

[moodnacreek]

From stock cars to sawmills or is it slowing down and saving money.

[Patrick NC]

It took 10 years and a lot of wasted money to come to the conclusion that I'm not Dale Earnhardt and nobody ever got rich racing on their own dime. Expensive lessons in economics. 😁

[SawyerTed]

The Daytona of Dirt 311 Speedway is a few minutes from here and Bowman Gray is just in Winston Salem.  I've got three or four buddies who realized the same thing - racing is especially expensive without major sponsorship.

For what they spent they could have had a collection of fine classic cars.  

[rusticretreater]

Yeah but nothing compares to the thrill of tradin' paint. 

So you have a M22. Can't do better than that. 

[Peter Drouin]

You can't take it [$$$] with you when you go to heaven.

[SawyerTed]

True but 2 are divorced due the money and time they spent on their racing hobby.   They'll tell you it cost more than the money spent on racing. 

Of course I have other friends with other hobbies that killed their marriages- golf, fishing and hunting. 

[Resonator]

You can't take it [$$$] with you when you go to heaven.

Funny you never see a Uhaul trailer hitched to a hearse in the graveyard.  ;D

Of course I have other friends with other hobbies that killed their marriages- golf, fishing and hunting. 

A lot to be said about finding a girl with the similar interests before you go and get hitched, or at least them knowing beforehand how much time hobbies will take up.

[Patrick NC]

I just realized that if I ever wanted to have anything besides a wrecked racecar and a rent by the week mobile home that I'd better give up the race life. 

[moodnacreek]

Before sawmilling it was dirt bikes and riding enduro's. When some kid that can really ride flies past you in a swamp full of angled muddy logs on a titanium super bike his sponsor bought it starts to sink in. I think the saying is: go big or go home.

[Peter Drouin]

.
True but 2 are divorced due the money and time they spent on their racing hobby.   They'll tell you it cost more than the money spent on racing.

Of course I have other friends with other hobbies that killed their marriages- golf, fishing and hunting.

Ann and I were married 35 years, All I did was for her, all she did was for me. 4 years ago, she went to heaven.
Now all I have is a sawmill that makes a ton of money and 3 cats.
The HOT ROD does not replace Ann, But It helps me not to think of her 24-7.
But, I do talk to her every morning when I talk to the father to start my day.

I'm just putting my time in until the father wants me.
Living alone is not fun.
Funny, a man can have a pocket full of $$$$ and not be happy,
This is the only thing that will put a smile on my face


To me, this is so cool, and it doesn't even have to be moving.
After the 4 speed, I have to do a little work on the power windows.  ;D

[SawyerTed]

Peter, so sorry for the loss of your love and life partner.  You have your priorities right.  Some guys can't seem to do that  with their hobbies.  

My comments about racing were from Patrick's comment about part-time racing without major sponsorship.  

Hobbies have their place in healthy relationships.  As you know there's balance between hobbies and the rest of life that has to be there.  

I'm thankful you have the hot rod and the money to enjoy it.  My buddies who were racing had an expensive hobby that got out of hand, the have very competitive personalities.   Same for some of the golfers, fishermen and hunters.  Those men sacrificed time and relationships with their wives and children and it cost more than the money. 

[Peter Drouin]

Parts came in,


 And my new speedway mag too.


 My kind of HOT ROD  ;D
Having a hard time to find a pinion gasket. Need the 4" tin that holds the gasket in place, and the gasket. Anyone have an idea where I can find one?


 

I have to get going, last day of Feb and the ph is ringing off the hook. Customers looking for lumber. :D :D :D :D :D :D
Speedway don't have it. I looked online with no luck so far.
Good day to work on the HOT ROD with 6" of snow coming down today.
I did see one add, I guy selling 1x12 all KD for .85 a BF. But, You have to buy a lift of it, 6' to 16' in it.
Maybe I should think about that.
YH and Bruno do it buy KD lumber from a big mill, mark it up and sell it.
All done thinking, nope.  ;D Just not for me.

[DennisK]

Is that an old torque tube driveline? like an old late 30-40's Buick?

Late 50's Olds? Buick?

[rusticretreater]

Do you have any ID information on the unit?

https://www.diyford.com/ford-axle-history-identification-ford-differentials/

You might try to call Currie Enterprises and ask them to identify it.

https://www.currieenterprises.com/

[Peter Drouin]

Its a 1971 Y from a mustang 3 -10 gear. or a Bronco
Thanks for the info.

[Peter Drouin]

Out,


 I went to put the pilot bearing in. The whole is 1 1/8. 
The bearing is 1 3/16. Won't fit, A 1/16 too big. Always something. 
I have 2 one with roller bearing and a bronze. Same size.
I'll turn it and take some off the roller bearing.

    


 

 I would have the 4 speed in to day if it was the right size.
I guess in 1963 they made them a little smaller.  :
The M 22 is waiting. :D


   

[Peter Drouin]

I did the income tax thing this morning. Got it done. Had to get 30,000th taking off the pilot bearing to get it in. :
Then run around to get shorter bolts for the bell housing.
Broke the only socket I had for the flywheel. twerking it down. Off again to get tools. 
But I did something done.


 

Going to get the clutch pedal hung and hope to get the 4 speed in.
Then a bigger yoke for the drive shaft. That m22 has a BIG output shaft. HOT RODS can push your patience. Right Jeff. :D :D :D 8) ;)

[Resonator]

Clutch story...

Years ago a salvage yard near me had a Dodge SRT 10 Viper they towed in, rebuilt, and sold. It was low mileage and had been a major insurance claim, but had never been in collision. What I gather had happened is the driver had been drag racing it and the clutch blew up. Thing went off like a bomb, sending shrapnel up into the car doing major body damage.

[Peter Drouin]

That's why I got a explosion proof one. ;D

[Peter Drouin]

HOT ROD on hold again. Need a tool to set the throw-out baron.With a hydraulic throughout baron, I have to be within 50 thousand from the pressure plate. For it to work right and last. Racing stuff. : :
If I don't get it right, I have to pull the trans and start over. :P
I don't mind buying tools, All ready spent 600.00 on tools alone. My old worn-out farm tools just don't make it.  :D :D :
I did find out the 9" ford rend I have is a 1971 Maverick Grabber. 
In 71 when it came out with a high output  302 4 speed.

[Peter Drouin]

Well, things don't always work the way you want.


 

See the tape on the firewall.

The firewall is 2" lower than the tunnel. The big ass bell housing doesn't fit. Have to cut some, no room for that. Out came the 327. :
Tomorrow when it's snowing 8 to 10". I'll cut and put the 4 speed and 327 together and stuff it in, Maybe.


  :D :D :D ;) 

[Peter Drouin]

All in.


 

All wired back up. Have to put the shifter on. And the clutch peddle in.
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 
4 SPEED HOT ROD.  8) 8)

[thecfarm]

Almost there!!!
You will be ready when it's warm outside.

[Peter Drouin]

YA cfarm, The last snow storm I got 6", driveway has 4" of mud. A lot of work to do still, little things. I was going to put a rubber mat on the floor. Instead of a carpet. Easy to clean with a garden hose.  :D ;)