I could be unemployed

Tillaway · April 19, 2002, 02:41:01 PM

Read this story and tell me if it would make a difference on how you manage your woodlot. Keep in mind you will have to pay someone like me to write the harvest plan for you. The minimum cost for the plans are in the nieghborhood $15,000. It is not unheard of for a small landowner to pay over $1000 dollars per acre to have one written.

http://www.redding.com/news/state/stories/20020419state015.shtml

Ron Scott · April 19, 2002, 05:04:37 PM

Whats Happening to "Private Rights"? Private landowners should be compensated for and not charged for all the nonmarket values they provide along with their right to harvest their timber with good stewardship.

I guess us Foresters should move to California for this "Gold Rush" on private landowner timber. ;D

dewwood · April 19, 2002, 06:27:51 PM

Does anyone remember a little tea party in Boston Harbor and what eventually became of it?

Keith_A · April 19, 2002, 07:03:28 PM

Maybe I am naive but I don't think many people are making tens of thousands of dollars per acre for cutting timber(especially on government owned land after you factor in legal costs).
Once again the liberal media disgusts me. It seems a sad day when we have no problems giving people money year in and year out for doing absolutely nothing but people out there trying to make a profit and live a good life style are villified. I think we once called it the American dream, it seems to me the liberal media is striving to make it the American fantasy.

Jeff · April 19, 2002, 07:06:38 PM

Tillaway I'll keep posting these Michigan Forester Jobs as I get them. We need to get you to safer ground. ;)

Tom · April 19, 2002, 07:08:10 PM

It's unfortunate, but the first thing that came to my mind was "well, that's California". That state has been abusive to citizens, land owners and individual rights for years. If this country ever came under Communist domination, it would begin in California. They call themselves a Liberal state, I call them a Socialist state.

Governments don't "make" money, they "take" money. They don't permit citizens to reach goals, they stop them from individualistic acts. California is one of the worse.

What do you bet that those mentioned in the article who are designing the strangle hold on the landowners, don't own any "free", forested or agricultural lands.

Tillaway · April 19, 2002, 08:47:07 PM

Tom you are absolutely correct. This state is generally referred to as "The Peoples Republic of California" or " The Socialist Republic of California". All policy is made by representatives from the ten most populous counties. They represent less than 10% of the land mass. The Governor appoints "friends" to all positions he can regardless of qaulifications. The Director of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection was a politcal friend of the Governor and up until the time she was appointed director she had zero experience with Forestry or Fire Protection. Now she runs the show.

Back in the early 90's when I first started to do some work here there were these yellow "Home Rule" signs in almost every window of the rural homes in this part of the state. There was a big push to break the state up but some how it was defeated.

It almost happened before but WWII got in the way. I may have posted it before but the spirt to break away is still alive.

http://www.jeffersonstate.com

Heck, the local TV News just calls this the "North State" and won't hardly say the "C" word.

Ron Wenrich · April 20, 2002, 05:09:05 AM

Anytime you tax an activity, you will limit the amount of that activitiy. But, if you don't have some sort of regulation, then there is a greater tendency to abuse that activity. Seems like there is a line where they can both co-exist.

Our state has no regulations on forestry activity, except soil erosion and sedimentation. We have a right-to-practice forestry law. We do not tax stumpage or forest value. We do tax income from sales. Our state officials are mainly within the profession. Only cabinet positions are appointed.

Regulations can be put on at the local level. Many of these are not well written, and deal mainly with clear cutting. That opens the door for mismanagement.

The most popular cutting method is diameter limit cuts, followed by selection cuts (read high grade). Much private cuttings do not have forester oversight, and many that do are not very well managed.

I don't see anything wrong with a mgmt plan that is written and reviewed by a professional, independent forester. I do see something wrong with layers of bureacracy and layers of regulations. You cannot regulate the environment at the state or national level. You can regulate at the community level, so that it meets local standards and conditions. But, you have to use common sense.

Frank_Pender · April 20, 2002, 06:58:07 AM

That is where part of the rub comes, Ron. Whast is common sense to one is not to another. This infection in California is heading North much of the time. People leave and come into Southern Oregon and the "thinking processes moves with them and right North into places like "The Peoples Republic of Eugene and Portland". Like I have posted before, if Measure 64 had passed I would have not been able to harvest 80% of my trees that are 24" plus, dbh.
It was not the Tea Tax that bothered the people the most, it was the Stamp Act. >:( But, the tea was easily acccessable and went into the Harbor. 8) 8)

Tom · April 20, 2002, 07:32:03 AM

For an outfit that is supposed to be Governed "by and for" the people, it seems that we (generally) forget that a citizen is supposed to be allowed personal property.

There were no restrictions on my Deed and I paid good money for the land. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not renting it from the Mayor or the Governor or the President, or those 'little ole ladies' in the apartment complex down town. Yet, they can legislate against cutting a certain size tree in this county that prohibits me from legally cutting a tree I planted on my property.

We didn't have to worry about this kind of thing too much until we started putting big city folks in positions of power and even then it wasn't too bad until they started coming from somewhere else.

California has the "Coming form somewhere else" blight also. Perhaps it would make more sense to require an elected official to show that he and his family had recided, in the area he was to govern, for three generations. :D

I got real upset several years ago when a young reporter described a meeting of world leaders as "Rulers of 'x' nations met today to discuss world affairs. There was the King of 'a' the King of 'b' and Mr. Clinton."

Perhaps it was a slip of the tongue of a youngster but I'd rather judge that it was a Freudian slip and that I heard the agenda of the "Ruling" party slip out of this little girls' mouth.

I wanted to yell into the TV." We don't have Rulers here lady, we have governors" but it wouldn't have done any good. Perhaps she was "righter" than me. :D

Tillaway · April 20, 2002, 10:12:57 AM

Ron you are right about regulation, ironically the layers of regulation here do not lead to good forest management practices or stewardship. The most popular silvicultural presriptions here are; Shelterwood removal, you would flip at what passes for one here, total high grade. Selection, modified high grade that has minimum stocking standards for trees over 18 or 24 inches and minimum basal area retention limits. These presriptions are so popular because as a consultant you have to harvest enough volume to make the plan at least break even. After you are through with addressing concerns with the departments of, Fish and Game, USFW, CDF, Water Quality, Mines and Geology and Indian Tribes concerns as well as nieghbors. If your plans are next to National Parks, State Parks, or Forest Service they also will have input on your plan. Once everyone is satisfied and the plan is approved you have run up a very large bill to hand to the client and hope he can cut enough to pay it. :(

To the small mill owners here on this board, basically your operation is nearly nonexistent here. In order for you, yourself, to cut one live green tree here off your own property and sell the product you manufacture you will have to have a Harvest Plan and Timber Operators License. There are probably a dozen or more Woodmizer mills in this county, and maybe two actually cut the occasional log. Due to regulation your operation practically does not exist here.

Frank, I might still have a bumper sticker around here on that one. That was pretty craftily written proposed regulation, if you were not experienced with forestry you could not get any idea of how devastating that would have been. Whatever happened to "Son of 64" or "64 lite"?

Tom · April 20, 2002, 02:15:18 PM

Boy, that makes me glad I'm here and not there. I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't cut a log now and again. These farmers would have a bad time too. When they have their own wood, it cost them around $2000 for one of my trips. If they had to buy that wood at the store it would be for like $7500. That's a lot of chicken feed, KFC would have to go up on a 3 piece dinner. :D

Frank_Pender · April 20, 2002, 08:49:59 PM

Tillaway, right now I am not hearing any rumbles. If "The Son of ... is being passed around and being signed it is being done very quietly. I usually have my ear pretty close to the ground about this stuff. I will try and listen more closely in the next few days and let you know. Thank you for the inquirey. ;)

DanG · April 20, 2002, 10:12:53 PM

Hang in there, Tillaway! After last year's debacle with the electric companies, it's just a matter of time before those folks wise up. They can't go on forever, banning production of any kind, and expect the rest of the nation to do without, just to get their asses out of the crack. Their imagined rescuers have put their foot down once, now, and it will be easier to say "no" the next time. Maybe a food embargo of Beverly Hills would be a good place to start. We have had several "actors" come to Fla. lately, to tell us what chumps we are. During the flap over the presidential election, well known Communist, Rob Reiner, was allowed to visit elementary schools to "inform" the students of the evils of the Republican Party. No one else was allowed to give an opposing viewpoint. Recently, Alec Baldwin(whoever he is??) came down here with some further words of wisdom. What makes these people think that they are qualified to tell us what is good for us? They make a living, and a fine one, at that, pretending to be something that they are not. Have they done such a good job, that they actually believe it, now?

Excuse the tirade, folks, I gotta go take my BP pill.

Bud Man · April 21, 2002, 01:58:56 AM

Tilly , Looks and sounds like your in the right place and the right time to strike it rich. If I was a California timber owner I'd meet every stipulation required as fast as I could, cut every dollars worth of timber the law would allow, stack my chips as fast as I could and then move to a less populous state where Illegal imigrants and deadbeats on some sort of wellfare aren't running the place "YET " Or I might move East of the San Andreas Fault Line and pray for The Big One To Hit while all of the politicians, lawyers, and lobbyist's, as well as everyone on some sort of dole rolls are in Southern California area at some sort of socialistic or political rally or convention . California is a perfect example of what's wrong with America, a few elected officials governing the masses by gathering the votes from those on the dole rolls. They seem to be the only ones showing up to vote ! Seems the meek have inherited California ! :'( :'(

Tillaway · April 21, 2002, 01:38:02 PM

Budman, it would seem that you could make out well. Since there are few mills operating in the state log prices are lower than say Oregon's. Compound this with the slump in the western log market as a whole and it equals no profit. The company I work for wrote one harvest plan last year. This year we are working on one that the tab is already up to $4000 (15 acres) and we are not even close to approval. In fact we have not determined if we need to call owls or not and if so the tab owl work will be close to another $4000. The client will have $10,000 plus bill to rehab about 11 acres and thin 4. The stand is way understocked and the owner wants to cut the hardwoods and put it back into conifer production. The state has never been on site but in their wisdom have determined that the stand currently meets minimum stocking standards so therfore a rehab is not appropriate silviculture. They did this from the office located about 250 miles away.

We are also working a a harvest plan for a new natural gas pipeline. Basically a 50' wide 14 mile long clearcut. Due to obvious civil engineering requirements (the pipeline crosses several creeks) we have break numerous rules regarding operations in riparians. The problem is the state CDF inspectors have not quite grasp this requirement. :

Most harvest plans are cut to the minimum state stocking standards now anyway. The cut and run is the favored play here. Also many operations do not allow any build up of inventory. Not many people are willing to leave much money on the "table" to be regulated away.

Frank, Earth Day tomarrow, check out Clackamas Town Center Mall, you can get just about anything on the ballot with signatures gathered there.

Tom · April 21, 2002, 01:45:52 PM

DanG, DanG. Wasn't Alec Baldwin that "actor" that was going to leave the country if Bush was elected? Is he still here?

Bud Man · April 21, 2002, 01:49:36 PM

Tilly they probably have a recent grad looking at satelite photos to determine stocking levels, probably never been in the woods since graduation ! All boils down to California being much too big to be just one state, 30 million ( one in every 9 Americans lives in California) something gotta give sooner or later !!

Tom · April 21, 2002, 02:40:34 PM

Man!.........you call that living? :D

It scares me. That's where it looks like my state's heading.

Ron Scott · April 21, 2002, 04:05:19 PM

A sure case of " too much Planning" causing "Paralysis".

Seems that any timber harvest won't get off the drawing board in a reasonable time to be efficient and effective.

Bud Man · April 21, 2002, 06:08:28 PM

Your right Tom, with 14+ million The Sunshine state is rapidly simulating California in many ways, including taxes and all forms of lamebrain legislations! :'(

Cedar Eater · April 21, 2002, 09:04:31 PM

I happily left The People's Republic of Kalifornia when it became clear that their experiments with socialism had successfully lowered the mean voter IQ beyond the point of no return. I don't think things will improve there until the voters themselves (taken as a whole) accept the blame for the failures of their public officials. If they learn to throw whiners like Gray Davis out instead of embracing them, then they may pull back from the brink of societal failure. I'm betting that will take more than my remaining lifespan.

Fortunately, the US Constitution guarantees that we can vote with our feet when a state goes over the deep end. We can sell our holdings and leave with our remaining wealth relatively intact. This is very important, because the potential for loss of taxpayers to states with different approaches to government forces state goverments to compete with those other states for productive citizens.

One of the reasons California is in such trouble is the exodus of overtaxed people to states with more respect for productivity, less addiction to authority and less desire for conformity to the whims of the blissfully uninformed. Unfortunately these exiles sometimes don't understand what made them want to leave and they try to recreate Kalifornia wherever they flea (just ask the natives of Washington, Oregon, Utah, Colorado... ). This isn't unique to California. In Vermont and New Hampshire, they call their refugee populations Massholes.

Unfortunately, we can't easily find another country with even remotely similar respect for individual rights. If the feds make competition between states meaningless by usurping their remaining rights, watch out. They have some zinger laws to backstab you and pick your pocket if you try to vote with your feet. A country that feels it might need these laws is a country preparing to tick a few people off.

Bud Man · April 21, 2002, 11:54:10 PM

"Unfortunately for California, But Fortunately for the rest of the U.S., California has an opportunity to lead the way again." They can serve as a Beacon to the rest of the US as what not to do with : Energy Usage, Water Usage and Watershed Mgmt., Grassland Usage, Timber Harvesting and Regeneration, Nuclear Energy Development, Legislation, Taxes, Lackadaisical Immigration Enforcement, Building Codes, Herbicide and Pesticide Usage, Morals And Ethics Erosion, Foreign Land Ownership Levels Enforcement ,Labor Laws,-,-,-,-,etc. In fact the History of California From Beginning to Present Day Events Should Be Mandatory Reading For All Americans As A Primer Of What Not To Repeat ! :P

swampwhiteoak · April 22, 2002, 02:00:04 PM

I considered moving to Kalifornia at one point. Then I found out many of my rifles hold too many bullets. Oh well they didn't need another person there anyway :

Ron Scott · April 22, 2002, 05:24:48 PM

When we were sent from other states to fight forest fires in Californnia, California would always hit us for their state income tax since the fire fighting was done in Cailfornia, even though we weren't residents and were sent their temporarily to help protect their resources. They said that since that's where the work was, we had to pay their added taxes on our income.

The only state that did that on out of state wildland firefighters.