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Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?

Started by Satamax, June 25, 2020, 05:00:10 PM

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Satamax

Well, i guess!  

I don't think i'll go for SKF, but FAG if i can find it, or NHK/RHP. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

All pulled out.



 

So the little bearing of the swivel is 30x10 by 9mm thickness. 6200-2rs big bearing is 6216-2RS 140 x 80 x 26mm 

To push the little bearing, a split 10mm piece of aluminium, pushed by a 5mm nail. As per the picture above. Pretty easy. 

I don't have the part type or number for the "oil seal" 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Ed_K

 On mine I driled the plate to 1/4 NPT drill size and taped it. Then I could use a standard 1/4 swivel. Much cheaper I think I paid $70.
Ed K

Satamax

Thanks a lot Ed. But i think i have all the parts,the little bearing costs 4 dolls. SKF even. I pushed the aluminium swivel out with the drill press. The gland cap will be cleaned with my lathe. 

Besides the little and big bearings, all i need is the gland cap oil seal. 

I could change all the system if i was sure it would be better than the original. Otherwise, i don't see the need for it. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

Found the dimensions of the seal for the gland cap. 127mm X 101.6 mm, 12mm thickness. 4"X5" X 1/2 in your metrics.  ;D
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

Guys, if i'm not talking gibberish. 


The hydraulic valve for the winch should look like this? 




Left drawer brake

right drawer clutch

Center, neutral. 

Or am i missing something? 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Ed_K

 I'm not sure what your looking for? Are you looking to hook up A hydro line?

 

 

 This is where the pressure goes in for the clutch.

 

 

 This is the master control for both the clutch and the brake.

 
Ed K

mike_belben

Max, that is a pretty basic 3 position double acting spool valve with what we typically call a "motor center" in america because it can wind down by the bridge connection on A/B when centered.. Vs a cylinder center which locks to hold and will try to stop a spinning motor, often shearing something.  



I dont know the mechanical workings of forestry winches well enough to comment on if it'll work for those.  I wish i had a few junk ones here to dissect.  
Praise The Lord

Satamax

Hi guys. Thanks for the reply. What i'm tying to do. Is to pilot the winch with small hydraulics. 

Clutch needs pressure to engage. 

Brake needs pressure to brake. 

Both shouldn't be activated at the same time. and pressure released from the small cylinder, when the other one is pressurized. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

mike_belben

Praise The Lord

Satamax

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

ehp

Sorry but I'm not following what your trying to do cause I'm not that smart. You need pressure to winch in and release . No pressure on brake or hold . The bands do that. If you can stay with the brake fluid setup cause the hyd. Oil set up cost alot more for parts and I mean alot more . The 1 valve on the release side in almost a $1,000 now 

Satamax

Sorry ehp, I don't quite get what you're saying.

No pressure to brake?  How would you pull the cable if that's the case?

The x701 master control locks in the open brake position?

I've worked a bit on it tonight. Turned the joint race back to clean.  The oil seal holds on it. Enough to be airtight, I would say.  

 

 

 
I ground down to 1200 grit with a DMT stone. Then polished  with a strop and polishing compound. That will be good enough. 

 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

On the winch subframe side. I have scavenged this beam. 



It's 1cm thick, or a smidge more. More than 3/8" 8" X 5" or thereabouts. 

I'm asking myself the question. Do I go the extent to turn it into an hydraulic tank? With all the holes I have to drill in it. 

That would be a pain,  but I would have a 15 gallon low profile tank. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

ehp

it needs pressure to release not to brake , when you push for release the pressure shoves down and opens the 2 hold bands that are on the out side of the drum, when you want the bands to hold you take the pressure away so there is no pressure on the hold bands so they can hold the drum 

Satamax

Quote from: ehp on March 04, 2021, 01:55:02 PM
it needs pressure to release not to brake , when you push for release the pressure shoves down and opens the 2 hold bands that are on the out side of the drum, when you want the bands to hold you take the pressure away so there is no pressure on the hold bands so they can hold the drum
Well, i remember the spring on the brake. But that seems very counter intuitive to me, as the two master cylinders on the "master control" need to both open the brake, and clutch the drum to winch. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

So, I went back to the workshop. 

Fitted the bearing.which seems to be a smidge wide. There is a pile of non original looking washers. That bugs me.  There is play laterally between the bearing retainer's stub, which has the O ring.. and there seems to be a recess on the edge of that well. For may be another O ring.  I'm really thinking about turning the bearing retainer to the proper size to fit the bearing.  And be hydraulic pressure proof.  I also opened the brake, using a hand pump. And forced the clutch to stick with a screwdriver. I can winch in by hand.  And I managed, after forcing the second band to open, with a big screwdriver ;  to pull cable by hand.  Any advice on how to grease or oil the brake mechanism and pins. Without ruining the bands?   First brake band is de glued  or de riveted at one end. 



 

 

 

 

 

 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

And for hydraulic control, i need this then.  Left drawer, Brake opening. Center one brake on. Right drawer, brake and clutch actuated. I wonder how do i keep a low pressure in that circuit? And have a separate higher pressure circuit for cylinders. Double pump? Or does low pressure dividers exist? 



French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Ed_K

 In your second picture those washers are different thickness's to keep the plate your machining from pushing the bearing into the end of the drum shaft and making the drum from pushing against the back of the winch housing and binding it up so the drum won't turn. On that plate with the o-rings I finally gave up and threaded the center hole to 1/8 npt and threaded the swivel onto an 1/8 npt pipe for pressure to the clutch. The first picture in my post from yesterday.



 

 The brake system work with the springs on the right side of the drum by holding the drum tight till you put pressure to the cylinder then it opens the band to release the cable.

 

 

 

 

When you put pressure to the clutch cylinder when the secondary band turns it lets the brake band slide enough to release it and pull your cable in.
 I used a 2 part epoxy to glue the fiber back to the band.
 When I worked on the brake spring shafts I used never-seize to lubricate the moving parts.
Ed K

Satamax

Thanks a lot Ed_K. 

I've kept the original swivel. It was all "clean" tho, I have glued the bearing, and the swivel with loctite 577.  There is so much slop between the bearing retainer plate's stub, with the O ring. And the well it fits in. That I don't trust the shimming washers to seal it well. Since I will use hydraulics to actuate the clutch and brake. I need those to be properly oil tight. 

In the well, there is a bevel, that I wonder if it is for another O ring. 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Ed_K

 In that well there should be a bearing,a u-cup and 1 o-ring. These seal the swivel and the flange on the tube.At one point I got a repair kit # 57625 trying to seal the tube. If your winch is newer 19/119-25020 then you need 2 bearings before the u-cup.
The 12 shim washers are for proper shim adjustment between the large bearing and the clutch hub,so the bearing doesn't push the clutch hub against the brake drum which then pushes that against the winch housing, locking the drum from turning. The book shows using a depth mike to get this measurement. My repair manual I down loaded is so dark I can barely see picture of the micrometer. By any chance do you have the book to look at to see what I'm seeing?
Ed K

Satamax

So, I did something good today. 

A proper shim. 1.5mm thick. 

I have added the O ring I wanted to. Hoping for more resistance to leakage. 

 

 

 

  
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

And i think i have found the trick, to have a simpler hydraulic valve. Two electrically actuated valves. And electric over hydraulic. Way simpler!  ;D
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

Guys. I have found dead cheap Kuroda valves with 24v solenoids one ebay. 

Kuroda PCS241B-NB-D24

I wonder if these are for air or hydraulics? I obviously don't need much in term of flow nor pressure, to power the brake and clutch receiving cylinders. I need straight and cross flow. To push the cylinders, or let the oil flow back to the tank. 

I'm wondering if i take the pressure from the power steering. 

For the electric part, i found the simple way. Two 24 volts  four poles solenoid switches for three phase power that i have. One opening just the brake cylinder, for freespooling of the drum. 

The other one opening the brake, and locking the clutch. It is as simple as that. May be i'll set a timer between the opening of the brake,and the start of the winching. 

A three position switch in the cab, paralleled with the remote controller switches.  

I will certainly buy the one advised by treemuncher, in this thread. 

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=113826.msg1792296#msg1792296

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

Guys, this the link to the swivel. 

Is the crack real bad? I guess so. 



 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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