The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Forestry and Logging => Topic started by: KyLogger on August 23, 2012, 11:31:36 PM

Title: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: KyLogger on August 23, 2012, 11:31:36 PM
Just completed the Kentucky Master Logger course. Per state law there has to be at least one KML on each logging job who is in charge of operations. The course covers Best Management Practices (BMPS), laws, safety, and a lengthy talk from our friendly local OSHA guy smiley_thumbsdown While I was impressed with the Kentucky Forestry employees and the UK Forestry Extension staff the class was a complete waste of time and money. Three full 8 hour days wasted, not counting drive time, $85 each for me and my workhands plus eats!! I think what ticked me off the most was the fact that this is just another way for the state to comply with the wishes of the greenie weenies, not that I think we should be polluting streams with mud and debris or anything. BUT COME ON!!!!! It too three days to say ; Keep tops out of creeks, use improved water crossings, don't drain oil into creek, and hinge cut, ALWAYS hinge cut!!!!

At least it's over,

Tom
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: mad murdock on August 24, 2012, 01:31:25 AM
Wow! I can't believe you weren't hinge cutting before the course! ;)
I think I would get unhinged if I had to pay for someone to instruct me in something that if I didn't have the sense to know already, I would have no business being in the woods. Unfortunately, all these rules, though started with good intentions appear to take on a life of their own. SFI rules are getting to get to such a point that if too much more stuff gets heaped on the contractors where we operated, the rules will cause us to function in such a way that will contribute to the unsustainability of our organization!
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: WH_Conley on August 24, 2012, 05:30:35 AM
I took the same course. I agree 100%.
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: thecfarm on August 24, 2012, 06:56:47 AM
I think Maine has the same law. I can get around it,because I am on my own land.Takes time and money to keep up on those courses. Hard for the one skidder guy to keep up on it. Have to take time off and than pay for the courses too. When all this started the paper mills said that they would pay more for certified wood.  ::)
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: snowstorm on August 24, 2012, 06:57:16 AM
you got out of it cheap. up here it would cost $550 each
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: daleeper on August 24, 2012, 07:20:00 AM
I agree with what you are saying, but as long as people get hurt on the job, and continue to drop trees and dirt in the creek, the training requirements will continue to get longer.
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: thecfarm on August 24, 2012, 07:24:44 AM
daleeper.welcome to the forum. Do you work in the woods? Have a mill?
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: Meadows Miller on August 24, 2012, 09:24:32 AM

I feel you Here we have whats called an FOL Forest Operators License you need it to work in public owned forest but anything on private land you dont need it thats why I never bothered as they kicked us outa the bush in 2000 to make a national park and everything I work in is privately owned it costs a fortune here to get and aint worth sqwat  :( its easier to buy native logs in from other loggers  ;)
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: Autocar on August 24, 2012, 03:00:10 PM
Iam already ticked today so Iam going to jump in ! Most of the guys I meet in the timber bussiness are profasinals and respected the land and treat it like it is our own. Common sence tells a fellow not to drop trees or leave tops in lakes or streams. Our whole country has went off on the Greenie Weenie and Iam afarid it will only get worse.  ::) O by the way If your wondering what Iam ticked about I had to get a 5/8 inch metric bolt 1 3/4 inches long $5.67 at the local Ford dealer a American bolt with standard thread $1.37. Then to top it off, ended  up dealing with a I.R.S. and the 2290 Forum on heavy use highway tax. 
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: KyLogger on August 24, 2012, 05:08:16 PM
All is right with the world again! (Well most of it anyway) Cut, skidded and hauled two loads in by myself today, the local mill (12 miles versus 35) opened up again. Wide open!!! And just about to get my road made to the gap in the top of the cliffs to get to the GOOD stuff underneath! However at this point I think I would pay someone to let me fell some standing timber. Tornado=Miserable cutting conditions..........And SLOW to boot......

Tom
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: Mark K on August 24, 2012, 06:10:29 PM
I went and got certified two years ago for NY. Had to take GOL, silviculture and ecology, first aid and cpr. Wasnt cheap. We have to take so many credits within three years to keep our certification. The mill I contract for buys state wood so certification is required which has positives and negatives. I get to cut some of the nicest timber in NY but it seems like everytime it rains I get shut down. Which hasnt been a problem this summer!
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: wwsjr on August 24, 2012, 06:18:27 PM
The Mid-South Forestry Equipment Show in Starkville, MS is offering 12.5 hrs continuing education for foresters and 15 hours for loggers for anyone in the area. The only cost I have seen is the admission fee of $10 on-line or $15 at the gate. The show is 5-6 Oct this year.
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: KyLogger on August 24, 2012, 08:41:56 PM
We have to get an additional 6 hrs of continuing ed. every three years to keep our cards valid as well. And my day keeps getting better. Got a call about a 200 acre boundary tonight, with the possibility of getting the adjoining 600 acres owned by this guys dad!!! Gonna check it out on Monday! Things might finally be looking up :)

Tom
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: Decked on August 24, 2012, 11:50:20 PM
I went thru the GOL in the late 80's when Soren Erikkson was the instructor( I stihl have the 044 I bought from him-Stihl provided them to him in the spring, then he sold them in the fall). The training was free to us, but our insurance carrier paid Soren $1000 a day...way back then!
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: thecfarm on August 25, 2012, 06:36:26 AM
There'a more money to be made on talking about good havesting practicing than really doing it.  ;)
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: James Arsenault on August 25, 2012, 09:16:50 PM
There'a more money to be made on talking about good havesting practicing than really doing it.  ;)

Same conclusion I came to...............
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: PAFaller on August 25, 2012, 09:48:40 PM
CFarms got it right, more money to be made teaching about what to do than doing it. Most guys Ive met that teach are still pretty good productive loggers, but i have met a few that could make perfect stumps 99 out of 100 times, knew plenty of tricks, but had wore out iron and never seemed to get much done.

But back to the training issue. My big gripe has always been, at least where I am at in PA, that the training is more like rules to follow with nobody to enforce them. Now I am pretty conservative and hate big over-reaching government, but on the same token if you are going to make me take a bunch of classes and abide by a bunch of rules I expect those that don't to be dealt with accordingly.  Here, if you are a contractor who works on state or federal lands, or ground owned by some big management outfits you need to be trained through the SFI program. While these land holdings are large, they account for only a small portion of the timber cut in the state each year. And if you are operating on private ground its like wild bills wild west show anything goes with minimal supervision. For me that is where the problem starts; why should I take time off, pay upwards of 100 dollars per class to attend the thing, drive half way across the state for continuing ed credits, just to maintain a little card that says I have played by the rules. Meanwhile the misfits cutting down the road a bit are putting in just enough hours to buy oil for the leaky skidder and another 30pack for the weekend, have no idea what SFI even means, and are still able to sell wood into the same markets as me. 'Fairness' seems to be the buzzword of the month lately, so I am hoping maybe someone can explain how that works here. If i am not mistaken mills in some states have taken it upon themselves to encourage good forestry and logging by offering a slightly higher price for wood. That would be great, but I am not holding my breath.

With all that said I do attend the classes, usually carpool there with friends who also work in the woods and have found if nothing else classes are good ways to network with other like minded folks. And truthfully there is some sort of satisfaction that comes from knowing you are doing things right, and when you take pride in your work it shows. I have more work lined up than I ever thought I would, but my work ethic and respect for the landowners with whom I work is what has helped that, not the little card in my wallet saying I paid to play the game.
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: Cedarman on August 26, 2012, 06:53:17 AM
Indiana pushes safety more than the BMP's.  BMP course that I went was free. We do not have to get updates to keep our license.  I found the safety training to be great.  Keeping one's mind focused on safety is the most important aspect of logging.  As we all know it only takes one mistake to create a disaster.  I have sent some of my employees and my son to the GOL.  They all say it was great.  There is always something to learn. You may know 99%, but that 1% can make you more profitable and/or more safe.
As PAFaller said, it is good to know the right way and do it, with or without a card.
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: HiTech on August 27, 2012, 09:55:21 AM
It's always good to be on top of the latest and safest way of doing things. Also is there a hidden reason for being certified? Say a "Lawsuit"? If you get permission to cut on State owned lands and get hurt can you hold them liable? I think that's what the States Attorneys figure. It could be a way to cover their backsides. Today is a sue happy time. Look at someone wrong and they slap you with a Lawsuit. Look at the TV ads. All the Lawyers on there saying they will get you the top dollar for your accident. I know people who have gone to the State to get a permit to cut down trees and limbs along woods roads and never got one. They just wanted to cut the stuff close to the road, a little firewood. The paperwork and red tape is unbelievable. All the wood these people want to cut will just lay there and rot. It is all about Lawsuits.
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: lumberjack48 on August 27, 2012, 11:50:41 AM
The Federal and State used to give out 10 cord firewood permit's free, on till they found out they were liable.
I used to let anyone clean up ends and ect on my job. This helped me out and they got their firewood free. I had to stop letting anybody on the job besides my crew, i was liable.
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: John Mc on August 27, 2012, 04:11:32 PM
I went and got certified two years ago for NY. Had to take GOL, silviculture and ecology, first aid and cpr. Wasnt cheap. We have to take so many credits within three years to keep our certification. The mill I contract for buys state wood so certification is required which has positives and negatives. I get to cut some of the nicest timber in NY but it seems like everytime it rains I get shut down. Which hasnt been a problem this summer!

I believe you can cover at least some of your continuing ed requirements by attending an online "webinar", such as those offered by the NY Extension Forester (check out www.forestconnect.com (http://www.forestconnect.com)).  They are offered live about once a month (choice of a noon or evening class), and you can view recorded versions (but I think you have to attend live for credit).  I've tuned in to a couple of them.  They aren't going to teach you to drive a skidder, or give you some magic secret to doubling your production, but most of them are interesting (assuming you have some interest in the subject presented) and well done.
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: Mark K on August 27, 2012, 06:32:34 PM
I'll have to check that out. Thanks. Im taking my refresher cpr and first aid online when the mill forester's take theres. The courses really aren't that bed. But it seems like every time they have them though I have to drive 2-3 hours to get there. I think the GOL courses are well worth the money.
Title: Re: Boy, now I'm certified!
Post by: HiTech on September 02, 2012, 07:42:22 PM
Wait till New York State finds out that Hikers who twist an ankle can sue them. They will have classes to teach you how to walk. Can't imagine they let hunters in the woods with hi power rifles. Some Lawyer will think of a way to sue over these.