NC - Unstamped lumber for residential use

[jasonwarford]

I was doing some digging regarding NC building codes and use of sawmill lumber and came across this bill.

It looks to me like it was a recent proposed change to allow the use of unstamped lumber to be used in residential situations. Not sure how much support there is, but I think if this passes this would be a great thing for sawyers in NC.

SECTION 1.(b) The North Carolina Building Code Council shall amend the North 8 Carolina Residential Code for One- and Two-Family Dwellings in order to permit dimension 9 lumber that has not been grade-stamped under the authority of a lumber grading bureau to be 10 used in the construction of one- and two-family dwellings, when that use meets all of the 11 following requirements:

• The lumber is sold directly by the owner or employee of the sawmill that 13 milled the lumber to the owner of the dwelling to be constructed or that 14 person's authorized representative. 15 
• The dimension lumber meets or exceeds the requirements of the North 16 Carolina Residential Code for One- and Two-Family Dwellings other than the 17 requirements that only grade-stamped lumber be used in residential 18 construction. 19 
• The appropriate code enforcement official reviews the framing of the dwelling 20 to ensure that it meets the requirements of the North Carolina Residential 21 Code for One- and Two-Family Dwellings in all respects other than the 22 requirements that only grade-stamped lumber be used in residential 23 construction. The code enforcement official shall not be liable or subject to 24 disciplinary action for willful misconduct, gross negligence, or gross 25 incompetence under Article 9C of Chapter 143 of the General Statutes for any 26 structural failure that occurs as a result of the use of dimension lumber rather 27 than grade-stamped lumber.

Link to bill:
https://www.ncleg.gov/Sessions/2021/Bills/House/PDF/H141v1.pdf

Status of bill:
House Bill 141 (2021-2022 Session) - North Carolina General Assembly

[Brob1969]

That's great news.  I hope more municipalities adopt such language into their codes.  I am a general contractor in Florida and I now have a sawmill.  I intend to build a few structures for myself, but also would like to incorporate some exposed hardwood beams into some of the homes I build. 

[SawyerTed]

The bill was referred to committee.  It appears that the Committee on Regulatory Reform has proposed a substitute bill that still requires certification of the lumber by a third party independent inspector accredited by the American Lumber Standard Committee. And it requires that the lumber conforms with product and inspection standards under American Softwood Lumber Standard PS 20.

I'm not familiar enough with the American Lumber Standard Committee accreditation or the standards of the American Softwood Lumber Standards to know if this is any easier than getting lumber graded and stamped.

Is it a win?  Or is it a bunch of global warming?  

[jasonwarford]

Good catch @SawyerTed 

I didn't realize that the one I saw was the initial draft of the bill.

[Magicman]

When you start encroaching on regulatory, certification, accreditation, inspection standards, etc. territory you will find that there are deep pockets and vicious defenses.

[sealark37]

The North Carolina Legislature always has, and always will, vote to support the industrys that employ lobbyists.  The present Governor will always lift the donkey's tail to get a kiss.

[Don P]

 ALSC is the body that oversees the grading agencies by way of Doc PS-20 so it sounds like the proposed ammendment is to leave things just as they are, certified graders from one of the agencies.

The picture and homemade stamp in the other thread came from ALSC.

It used to be and I assume still is legal in NC to use lumber from your land on your house. I did that on one near Dunn, probably 20+ years ago. The inspector looked it over and said he knew where he was going if a big storm hit.

[SawyerTed]

Don, unfortunately that is no longer the case in most places in NC.  A standard building code has been adopted by most counties/municipalities which requires stamped lumber.  Thus the intent of the legislation- to allow a person to use ungraded/stamped lumber in their own house.  It looks like a bunch of global warming to me.  Hot air to make local mills think somebody is doing something to help them.  

I suspect Magicman has it right - big money - big mills, box stores, insurance lobbyists, forestry lobby, the regulators and others will ensure that lumber used for structural construction will continue to require a "certification", "inspection", "grade" from an accredited inspector which equals $$$$ for them.

[Don P]

It's little known but is still in effect, here's a couple of links. Looks like NC also recognizes an architect or engineer's letter instead of a grader using the alternative methods and materials clause.

0602.1.1 - Ungraded Lumber (ncosfm.gov)

BCC_Study_of_Use_of_Ungraded_Lumber_in_Certain_Circumstances_2017-12-12.pdf (ncleg.gov)

Edit; in that second report the writer mentions that grading rules require lumber be below 19% and I notice the NC exemption also requires this. That is a good thing to be sure, I prefer dry lumber. But, nowhere does the building code or the grading rules require that lumber be 19% (well FRT lumber but that's a little different). What the grading rules say is that if the stamp says KD19 then the lumber must be at or below 19%. S-GRN is a legitimate stamp. I'm splitting hairs here but it shows even from the top of the bureacracy how little they understand what they are talking about  :.

[Magicman]

There is no way that I would ever scale and charge a customer for some of the #2 lumber that is seen in some of the lumber stores.

[WV Sawmiller]

Lynn,

  I know the ones you mean. You can't even throw them away because they are liable to come back and hit you on the gourd!

[mike_belben]

... will always lift the donkey's tail to get a kiss.

:D

[stanmillnc]

Here in Charlotte the building inspectors are serious about stamps for any structural lumber. I built a 32' x 40' barn and they required it, even though it was just a storage building. The foundation inspector came out and saw my big stacks of lumber stacked and stickered next to the sawmill and asked what it was all for? He didn't appreciate my smart response and said that every stick needed to be graded and stamped by a licensed grader and that would cost me ~$.30 a board foot and all this wood would likely fail due to not being SPF and having high MC! Then the city threatened me that if I built with it, I'd be fined and have to tear it down. Long story short, this was circa 2008 and as lots of other construction projects came to a halt, I just called and cancelled my building permit citing lack of funds to get off their radar.

[mike_belben]

👆


Thats why i moved to where the meth peddlers and abusers have more clout than the county officials.  I cant get away with shooting a county official who really messes with me. 

[Don P]

Choose your battles. The goal is to win the war.
If you are going into battle know the rules of engagement, better than them.
They are not charged with creating law, simply enforcing it. Ignorance of the law on either side can be challenged. In this case a letter from the dept of insurance folks in the letterhead in my first link above is sufficient. (Building regulation in NC is under the Dept of Insurance). In other words it doesn't matter what a building inspector says in ignorance, what matters is what the law says. Many will not thank you for that education and will seek to educate you from there on out. This is not necessarily a bad thing, steel sharpens steel.

Now for the civics lesson. It is human nature when put in positions of power to try to accumulate more power. If we do not want to see our rights eroded it is necessary to hold those in power to the limits of their power. It isn't fun, it will likely cause much more work for you personally but you are holding the door open for those that follow you. Think through it carefully when you take the path of least resistance. 

[mike_belben]

I understand the path of least resistance analogy but i think a better one is concrete.  Its a lot easier to flatten wet concrete than cured concrete.  Only God himself can unravel the corruption machinery of say NYC or DC. That batch has cured.  I cant even afford to park there let alone oust the man from his castle. 

I found it wiser to leave a district where the corruption was set in stone and regroup and establish myself in one where the batch is still being mixed, because i still have option to influence it somewhat, especially if my fort is in order.  We have corrupt elements, but due to being a small town with mostly normal money, its not the entire conglomerate yet. A normal guy can still fight. 

[SawyerTed]

It's little known but is still in effect, here's a couple of links. Looks like NC also recognizes an architect or engineer's letter instead of a grader using the alternative methods and materials clause.

0602.1.1 - Ungraded Lumber (ncosfm.gov)

BCC_Study_of_Use_of_Ungraded_Lumber_in_Certain_Circumstances_2017-12-12.pdf (ncleg.gov)

Edit; in that second report the writer mentions that grading rules require lumber be below 19% and I notice the NC exemption also requires this. That is a good thing to be sure, I prefer dry lumber. But, nowhere does the building code or the grading rules require that lumber be 19% (well FRT lumber but that's a little different). What the grading rules say is that if the stamp says KD19 then the lumber must be at or below 19%. S-GRN is a legitimate stamp. I'm splitting hairs here but it shows even from the top of the bureacracy how little they understand what they are talking about  :.

It isn't as cut and dried as 0602.1.1 would lead a person to believe.
Read section 105 referenced in 0602.1.1. Approval of an alternative method or material is up to the inspector.  If the inspector decides it necessary additional tests can be required.  It's purely up to the inspector.  If one has an agreeable inspector that's great but the battle with a contrary inspector gets you back to graded and stamped I suspect. 


 


 

[pabst79]

Although I'm completely ignorant on the specifics of what type of wood can/would actually be suitable for framing and building,  many homes in my area are being constructed with rough sawn lumber, made by a few Cabinet shops and Amish sawmills in the area. The inspectors in our area are easy going as long as your not cutting corners or outright trying to circumvent the UDC code. The house we were at last week had all the interior walls built with standard (garbage) box store lumber. The exterior walls were all milled pine. We did a job a few weeks ago where the majority of the lumber was milled red and white oak off the homeowners property. It was harder on drill bits, I can only assume that it was adequate for framing. The topic is interesting, especially with the lumber shortage and or gouging that is happening.   

[Don P]

Make your case and choose your battles.
If the wood is on grade or better he would likely lose on appeal. For an owner/builder on a single residence especially, for a contractor repeatedly doing this there is a reasonable argument to be made to back him up. The intent of his bosses is clear, not saying if it is a contrary inspector that you wouldn't have a ongoing problem on your hands.

The last time I checked with TP Inspections the base fee for transient grading was $350 + time, that was several years ago. If you can be flexible and let him drop in on his auditing rounds it is cheaper. The last 2 times I had an engineer write a letter it cost $350, actually the last one waived the fee, we were building a charity house. With lumber prices spiking it would be worth considering.

[Tom King]

I miss the old Inspectors who were confident in their good common sense.  Our house, that I built in 1980, probably doesn't have one stick in it with a grade stamp.

I had been building spec houses for six years, on lake lots that had some big Pine trees on them.  When I had the lots cleared for the houses, I'd have the equipment guy haul the good logs, in his dump truck, to a mill run by the University of Virginia, bring the lumber back, and store it in an old stable.  The ground in the stable, and wood close to the ground had been sprayed with Chlordane, so bugs were not a problem.

When the Inspector came to inspect the framing, plumbing, and electrical, he said it was the prettiest framing lumber he'd ever seen.

[michaelyares]

This is a done deal. https://www.iredellcountync.gov/DocumentCenter/View/15864/06021---Building-with-Ungraded-Rough-Sawn-Lumber 

I was just browsing to see how yellow poplar converts to southern yellow pine for large lumber. I know it is ia tested species but was looking for an "easy" table to refer to.

[SawyerTed]

After being educated by @Don P and doing some research on my own,  the provision for using lumber from trees on your own property for your own dwelling has been around for many years in NC.  It remains in the code but educated building inspectors are a key to getting local understanding of the provisions. As Don has mentioned previously, build your relationship/case with your local building inspections office in advance.  

Joe Whitley, owner of Carolina Saw & Service, and I have had discussions regarding HB 141 which changes that provision some what.  The legislation has passed in the House but remains in committee right now.  There's been some recent lobbying efforts with the Senate to get the bill moved along.

Here's the link https://www.ncleg.gov/BillLookUp/2021/H141

[Don P]

Yellow poplar does have design values in the dimensional lumber (2-4" thick) table.
It does not appear in the heavy timber tables for 5x5 and larger. @Jim_Rogers sent me design values for it in heavy timber that were derived by an engineer using the appropriate ASTM procedures. I'm sure one of us can find them but whether that satisfies your inspector is another question. BTW tulip poplar is fine dimensional material, it is not that great for heavy timber. I suspect it not appearing in the heavy timber tables is a reflection of that and a hint.

Thanks Ted, I was back from the thunder jug doc and typing when your notice came up, I'll read the link after some lumber planing... for a house  ;D

[Don P]

Yeah, we have something like this moving through but screwing farmers.

This bill is a taking not a giving.

"(4) The lumber is certified by an inspector who is certified by an accredited independent third-party agency of the American Lumber Standard Committee"

... you got nothing, that is what the current building code says, pay the man and the paper holds the building up. What NC has had up until now is a person can use trees from their land to build their house, you lost that and now need a grader even for your own building according to my read of it.

Their definition of dimension lumber in the first paragraph is so screwed up I doubt this would stand up in a genyouwine court.

The divine absolution this grants the inspector is, illegal.

What are you gonna do, they probably mean well but people smarter than them with a mission in mind have their ear. This was not written by the brightest and best.

[SawyerTed]

My understanding is the "inspector" in (4) is the sawmill lumber inspector/grader who takes a short course designed by NCSU.  It isn't intended to be a "building inspector" in paragraph 4.  Probably an unfortunate word choice that will create problems 

The intent of the bill is to allow small mill owners to take a short course in framing lumber grading to allow that small mill to sell framing lumber to a person building their own home.  It is intended to allow the lumber to come from logs not necessarily tied to the home owner's property.  

The devil is in the details and legislation often gets changed by special interests.  You can bet large mills and SPIB are all exerting pressure in their own way with this.  So the original intent may not be achieved.