West Virginia Cable loggers

[Riwaka]

Heap of investment in this.  Other people/ loggers might have done something different for various reasons.

Mountain Mechanized Cable loggers - (Pineville, West Virginia)

John Deere tilter with dangle head bar saw.
Traction Assist on JD road builder.
Cable yarder/ harvestline on JD swinger.
Waratah on another JD swinger.
Loader another JD swinger.
and a skidder.

Mountaineer Mechanized - West Virginia/ JD commercial

Cable-Assisted Steep-Slope Felling | Mountaineer Mechanized - YouTube

5 minute vimeo on Mountain Mech.   under The Lyme Timber Co banner (2020)

John Deere bogie skidder in Georgia, USA

John Deere 768L-II Bogie Skidder | Matt Owens Logging Inc. - YouTube


Tesla electric log truck trial for Vancouver Island.
Island Partnership Trials World?s First Electric Log Trucks | Business Examiner

[Tacotodd]

That's some nasty hills. Reminds me of the photos that I've seen of the PNW.

I do like the idea of that cable associated machine. Looks like it may be a "game changer".

[nativewolf]

Conservation Fund backed that, I had hoped they would go with Ponsses (it would mean service trucks closer to me) but I guess the lack of a tracked machine was an issue.  Conservation Fund, for those that don't know, is like the Nature Conservancy but less showy and more about $.  Basically it is a big conservation oriented hedge fund.  They are big into the idea of sustainable logging/forestry.  


 @Skeans1 and @Quilbilly1 might see those syched machines out there.

[Ed_K]

 What are they doing cutting off hardwood to convert to pine plantations? I don't see that coming the New England ant time soon. 

[Skeans1]

Conservation Fund backed that, I had hoped they would go with Ponsses (it would mean service trucks closer to me) but I guess the lack of a tracked machine was an issue.  Conservation Fund, for those that don't know, is like the Nature Conservancy but less showy and more about $.  Basically it is a big conservation oriented hedge fund.  They are big into the idea of sustainable logging/forestry.  


@Skeans1 and @Quilbilly1 might see those syched machines out there.

That system is a lot safer system then the single line like the Ponsse as well as you have a tail hold. The guy talking spent quite a while out here working with that system is another reason you it's being used.

[Wudman]

What are they doing cutting off hardwood to convert to pine plantations? I don't see that coming the New England ant time soon.

Naw.  Most of these stands have been high-graded so many times that there is nothing left to select.  There is some decent poplar in the coves, but the oak component is just junk.  Some of this would have been chestnut ground.  It would be nice to see some of that re-established.  There are a number of groups working on some blight resistant chestnut.  


Wudman  

[mike_belben]

Conservation Fund backed

You answered my question.  Cuz i sure dont see the wood there to pay for the cable crew at all.

Spend 3mil to make 500k.  Great business model. 

[mudfarmer]

Conservation Fund backed

You answered my question.  Cuz i sure dont see the wood there to pay for the cable crew at all.

Spend 3mil to make 500k.  Great business model.

I wish there were more wealthy folks in my area that understood the need to invest in future forest productivity. We do have a lot of ground being converted to State via Nature Conservancy buying it up and turning it over.
Based on what NW said it doesn't sound like that group cares if their 3mil gives them 500k or 000k return, sounds like they are  possibly doing it for the woods?? I don't know really how that jives with being a hedge fund, maybe there is funny investment stuff going on that I don't know about or understand, or maybe it's like the scams that have been run forever where you pay yourself healthy salary+bonus out of the funding and don't give a squat about overall profitability?
Maybe it is just

A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

That would be nice

[mike_belben]

I dunno man, i have no idea. 

God gave me my little patch of his planet and said be fruitful and multiply.. so i just obey, no matter the cost. Maybe the conservancy folks are better at multiplication than me by several million. 

[mudfarmer]

I dunno man, i have no idea.

Same, just doing my thing in the woods  :D
If any hedge fund folks are reading this and want to give people money to grow trees, pick someone on here in your area and send PMs I guess? haha

[WV Sawmiller]

  Nice video. I'm no logger but I was wondering why nobody did that kind of logging around here. The Pineville site is about 60 miles or so from my home and the land they are logging looks like my place. 

   Leslie Equipment mentioned in the video is about 20 miles from me and our big JD dealer. They are a first rate company and my source for chainsaw chain, bar oil, hydraulic hoses, etc. My son said he asked about a part for his tractor and they told him "It is one of these two. Take them both and bring back the one you did not need and we'll settle up then." There are very few people like that now days.

    One of their employees has been talking with me about a mobile sawing job and as soon as he can get his logs out of the holler to his field I will go saw them. I probably should tell him to watch the video too. Maybe he can borrow some of the equipment to get them out. 

[nativewolf]

So I've watched it, yes it is the Conservation Fund backed initiative.  They did that through a conservation oriented TIMO, Lyme.  That land is almost all old pulp and paper company land in WV that was picked over 2-3 times.  Did somewhere they say plant in pine?  If so that would be odd.  Maybe white pine to shade things out and restart.  

@Skeans1 Ahh, I thought you might have some insight.   The Conservation Fund has a huge initiative in WV, they are willing to spend some money to change forestry practices for the better.  For them they feel it is money well spent and as someone a bit critical of the effectiveness of conservation groups spending I think they are doing the right thing and that it is a blessing to see a conservation group spending real $ to make forestry better.  Better than transferring land to state agencies where nothing changes except maybe to create parks.  

I know you're joking @mudfarmer but they would absolutely like to help you.  Problem for everyone is they don't know how to, they are big, multi billion dollar entity.  It is very hard to connect with them and mostly they do big stuff and hope it works because they have trouble doing small, they are fairly lean.  The WV initiative is new for them and I hope they are satisfied and feel it is a good idea to keep pushing down the food chain.  They are the type of group that could/would pay for TSI that you and hemlock and mike are doing.  I've had a long distance dialogue started with them, we'll see how it goes.  

[mike_belben]

 ... I was wondering why nobody did that kind of logging around here...

I speculate that it cannot be done economically without a subsidy to cover the costs.

[mike_belben]

I am naturally apprehensive of things that arent free market capital driven and of things that come from top down big govt/1% elite etc etc etc.  But the sorry state of TN's cutover forests where loggers and landowners are completely unencumbered in their harvest decisions... has shaken my conviction that the free market will always make the best choices.  I have cognitive dissonance about the whole picture.


Continual juvenile hardwood harvest is a disaster that leads to housing subdivisions and will eventually turn TN into the new FL. My worst nightmare really.


Prime stands will not return until there is both education applied to the landholder, and labor applied to the land, then a skipped generation of harvesting after the TSI.  Im trying to stay optomistic about that.  Actually no.. I have a pessimistic outlook on it that i try not to let bother me.



The lack of ATV sized iron with skidder level durability and a fathomable price tag is an issue that i am passionate about.  I think ive quizzed 5 forestors of both consulting and county extension flavor.  None have heard of anyone selling TSI.  I feel its safe to conclude that work simply isnt being done on the vast majority of forested acres.


I only know one good forest steward.  And i know its hard work.. Something each generation gets more and more allergic to.  Hard worker seems to be much harder to find than a financer for a huge pricetag custom machine being purchased with institutional, NGO or corporate dollars.  so thats a bright spot for me right?

[stavebuyer]

I don't see much real world practical use unless its subsidized "feel good" harvests by the TIMO's as a sales gimmick to retain backing from Ivy league endowment funds or government contract stipulation(leave it to the government to loose money any on an asset sale that any other seller could profit from)

Big tracts are getting fewer every day. Just about every rural property here now gets chunked up like a jigsaw puzzle and brings a fortune. Growing timber doesn't pay, has never paid, and probably won't ever pay what other uses do. 

How are you going to move that equipment to a 5 acre sale?

[nativewolf]

Yep, this sort of project is a beta.  Conservation fund will learn a bit and digest it.   They are very aware of parceling issue on east coast.

[mudfarmer]

Yep, this sort of project is a beta.  Conservation fund will learn a bit and digest it.   They are very aware of parceling issue on east coast.

Tell them to call me, there are two >1000acre parcels for sale within half hour of me one a little more than 1M one less both river frontage and I would quit my job tomorrow for a >1yr contract to manage either one ;D

edit: Oh and it's not anywhere near that dang steep

[WV Sawmiller]

   My son got an AS in Forestry along with his BS and I remember reading one of his books written by one of the first professional foresters in the USA. He was a German hired by the Vanderbilts to manage their land around the Biltmore House in NC. He said the problem with timber was the owner needed to realize income in his lifetime. Their priority for land management was what paid the best. Flat land became crop land. Rolling hills became orchards and pasture. Steep hillside were cut for firewood and timber. I don't think there was much market for pulpwood back then. He did stress one of the big values for state and federal parkland was they could afford to let the trees grow and they could serve as a seed bank of sort from the old growth trees that private landowners could not afford to raise.

  I'm all for growing trees and wildlife but I also feel a landowner should be able to profit from his land, time and investment.

   I saw it in Africa where the villagers were able to profit from tourism generated by their wildlife but they had to be able to earn a living and support a family. It is easy to say "Leave those gorillas or elephants alone and in10-20 years you and your family can earn a living from the visitors coming to see them" but what do you tell the man who honestly says "Yeah, but I'm starving now."?

   Its even more frustrating and scary now with existing and proposed tax plans and inheritance taxes that force the new owners to sell part of the land or the timber or such off their inheritance just to be able to keep the land.  

[mike_belben]

It all economics.. Literally the study of the allocation of scarce resources.



If mankind was present the sequoia woulda never become the giant sequoia. Thats all there is to it.  Treasure is discovered then depleted by man. 

[moodnacreek]

Conservation Fund backed

You answered my question.  Cuz i sure dont see the wood there to pay for the cable crew at all.

Spend 3mil to make 500k.  Great business model.

Firewood must be $500 a cord.

[Wudman]

I've done a good bit of work with the Nature Conservancy (Google Piney Grove Preserve - I had my hands in that before TNC and provided some technical assistance on the front end of the project) and know a few folks over at the Conservation Fund.  In my opinion, both of these are pretty good groups.  They put their money where their mouth is.  Neither is the antagonist that is often associated with "environmental groups".  If they identify a project of particular concern, they bring the money to the table and buy it.  I think both are financed primarily through donations, but both also generate cash flow from the properties they own.    

Both of these groups out in Appalachia are trying to make it economically feasible for the small landowner to actively manage his resource (sawmills, pulpmills, chipmills, pellet plants, mulch plants, etc.)  The lands have been highgraded for generations and have very little potential as is.  They are attempting to put resources in place that will generate a cash return for the landowner so that he can properly manage his resource.  If he can manage his resource, it will contribute to the group's greater purpose of landscape level conservation (notice conservation - not locked up unusable preservation).

As for Lyme, they are a TIMO.  Whether or not one can generate a return on investment is partially based on what one paid for it on the front end.  If you buy it at the right price, there can be some meat on the bone.  Much of this land was old coal company land.  I looked at some of it about 25 years ago.  If I remember correctly, the asking price was less than $200 per acre.  It was steep.  It was rough.  I saw some of the junkiest oak and locust you would ever see.  I saw some beautiful yellow poplar and a few cherries in the coves.  Getting it out was another story.  I remember one block in particular (about 10,000 acres.)  I drove to the access point with road frontage as indicated on my map.  There was a 50 foot high sheer rock road cut fronting the state highway.  I scratched my head.  There was an old fellow in his yard across from me.  I walked across and struck up a conversation.  I asked him about the access to the block.  He told me there was a road there about 50 years ago before they improved the state highway (that 50 foot cut).  He didn't know how to get in there now.

With the price of hardwood pulpwood in this area over the last few months, I could truck it 200 miles and still break even.  A typical year in July, I can't give it away.



Wudman  

[nativewolf]

Yep, this sort of project is a beta.  Conservation fund will learn a bit and digest it.   They are very aware of parceling issue on east coast.

Tell them to call me, there are two >1000acre parcels for sale within half hour of me one a little more than 1M one less both river frontage and I would quit my job tomorrow for a >1yr contract to manage either one ;D

edit: Oh and it's not anywhere near that dang steep

Lyme and other TIMOs may have already looked.

[stavebuyer]

I have been dealing with Lyme for a long, long time. Logs as well as standing timber. The whole FSC certified wood program is a laughing stock.

As far as NYS goes nobody will buy land there as a timber investment.  The reason land sells cheap is that taxes are insanely high to keep it. I owned timberland in the western tier there back in the 80s. Obscene is the only way to describe the taxes.

[moodnacreek]

It always bothers me to see a show like that. It causes land owners and certain tree cutters to call me and sometimes even show up with junk wood thinking I will either buy it or saw it for them. It just adds to my enemy list that is already to big.

[Riwaka]

Seems Lyme and affiliates have collectively forest holdings exceeding 1.5 million acres.

The West Virginia parcel is 163500 acres should keep the land clearing crew going for a day or few.

Portfolio - Lyme Timber

Explains where the $ might have come from.

The Lyme Timber Company LP Closes  Million of New Markets Tax Credit Capacity from CCML to Sustainably Steward West Virginia Forestland | CEI