West Virginia Cable loggers

[Riwaka]

Heap of investment in this.  Other people/ loggers might have done something different for various reasons.

Mountain Mechanized Cable loggers - (Pineville, West Virginia)

John Deere tilter with dangle head bar saw.
Traction Assist on JD road builder.
Cable yarder/ harvestline on JD swinger.
Waratah on another JD swinger.
Loader another JD swinger.
and a skidder.

Mountaineer Mechanized - West Virginia/ JD commercial

Cable-Assisted Steep-Slope Felling | Mountaineer Mechanized - YouTube

5 minute vimeo on Mountain Mech.   under The Lyme Timber Co banner (2020)

John Deere bogie skidder in Georgia, USA

John Deere 768L-II Bogie Skidder | Matt Owens Logging Inc. - YouTube


Tesla electric log truck trial for Vancouver Island.
Island Partnership Trials World?s First Electric Log Trucks | Business Examiner

[Tacotodd]

That's some nasty hills. Reminds me of the photos that I've seen of the PNW.

I do like the idea of that cable associated machine. Looks like it may be a "game changer".

[nativewolf]

Conservation Fund backed that, I had hoped they would go with Ponsses (it would mean service trucks closer to me) but I guess the lack of a tracked machine was an issue.  Conservation Fund, for those that don't know, is like the Nature Conservancy but less showy and more about $.  Basically it is a big conservation oriented hedge fund.  They are big into the idea of sustainable logging/forestry.  


 @Skeans1 and @Quilbilly1 might see those syched machines out there.

[Ed_K]

 What are they doing cutting off hardwood to convert to pine plantations? I don't see that coming the New England ant time soon. 

[Skeans1]

Conservation Fund backed that, I had hoped they would go with Ponsses (it would mean service trucks closer to me) but I guess the lack of a tracked machine was an issue.  Conservation Fund, for those that don't know, is like the Nature Conservancy but less showy and more about $.  Basically it is a big conservation oriented hedge fund.  They are big into the idea of sustainable logging/forestry.  


@Skeans1 and @Quilbilly1 might see those syched machines out there.

That system is a lot safer system then the single line like the Ponsse as well as you have a tail hold. The guy talking spent quite a while out here working with that system is another reason you it's being used.

[Wudman]

What are they doing cutting off hardwood to convert to pine plantations? I don't see that coming the New England ant time soon.

Naw.  Most of these stands have been high-graded so many times that there is nothing left to select.  There is some decent poplar in the coves, but the oak component is just junk.  Some of this would have been chestnut ground.  It would be nice to see some of that re-established.  There are a number of groups working on some blight resistant chestnut.  


Wudman  

[mike_belben]

Conservation Fund backed

You answered my question.  Cuz i sure dont see the wood there to pay for the cable crew at all.

Spend 3mil to make 500k.  Great business model. 

[mudfarmer]

Conservation Fund backed

You answered my question.  Cuz i sure dont see the wood there to pay for the cable crew at all.

Spend 3mil to make 500k.  Great business model.

I wish there were more wealthy folks in my area that understood the need to invest in future forest productivity. We do have a lot of ground being converted to State via Nature Conservancy buying it up and turning it over.
Based on what NW said it doesn't sound like that group cares if their 3mil gives them 500k or 000k return, sounds like they are  possibly doing it for the woods?? I don't know really how that jives with being a hedge fund, maybe there is funny investment stuff going on that I don't know about or understand, or maybe it's like the scams that have been run forever where you pay yourself healthy salary+bonus out of the funding and don't give a squat about overall profitability?
Maybe it is just

A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

That would be nice

[mike_belben]

I dunno man, i have no idea. 

God gave me my little patch of his planet and said be fruitful and multiply.. so i just obey, no matter the cost. Maybe the conservancy folks are better at multiplication than me by several million. 

[mudfarmer]

I dunno man, i have no idea.

Same, just doing my thing in the woods  :D
If any hedge fund folks are reading this and want to give people money to grow trees, pick someone on here in your area and send PMs I guess? haha

[WV Sawmiller]

  Nice video. I'm no logger but I was wondering why nobody did that kind of logging around here. The Pineville site is about 60 miles or so from my home and the land they are logging looks like my place. 

   Leslie Equipment mentioned in the video is about 20 miles from me and our big JD dealer. They are a first rate company and my source for chainsaw chain, bar oil, hydraulic hoses, etc. My son said he asked about a part for his tractor and they told him "It is one of these two. Take them both and bring back the one you did not need and we'll settle up then." There are very few people like that now days.

    One of their employees has been talking with me about a mobile sawing job and as soon as he can get his logs out of the holler to his field I will go saw them. I probably should tell him to watch the video too. Maybe he can borrow some of the equipment to get them out. 

[nativewolf]

So I've watched it, yes it is the Conservation Fund backed initiative.  They did that through a conservation oriented TIMO, Lyme.  That land is almost all old pulp and paper company land in WV that was picked over 2-3 times.  Did somewhere they say plant in pine?  If so that would be odd.  Maybe white pine to shade things out and restart.  

@Skeans1 Ahh, I thought you might have some insight.   The Conservation Fund has a huge initiative in WV, they are willing to spend some money to change forestry practices for the better.  For them they feel it is money well spent and as someone a bit critical of the effectiveness of conservation groups spending I think they are doing the right thing and that it is a blessing to see a conservation group spending real $ to make forestry better.  Better than transferring land to state agencies where nothing changes except maybe to create parks.  

I know you're joking @mudfarmer but they would absolutely like to help you.  Problem for everyone is they don't know how to, they are big, multi billion dollar entity.  It is very hard to connect with them and mostly they do big stuff and hope it works because they have trouble doing small, they are fairly lean.  The WV initiative is new for them and I hope they are satisfied and feel it is a good idea to keep pushing down the food chain.  They are the type of group that could/would pay for TSI that you and hemlock and mike are doing.  I've had a long distance dialogue started with them, we'll see how it goes.  

[mike_belben]

 ... I was wondering why nobody did that kind of logging around here...

I speculate that it cannot be done economically without a subsidy to cover the costs.

[mike_belben]

I am naturally apprehensive of things that arent free market capital driven and of things that come from top down big govt/1% elite etc etc etc.  But the sorry state of TN's cutover forests where loggers and landowners are completely unencumbered in their harvest decisions... has shaken my conviction that the free market will always make the best choices.  I have cognitive dissonance about the whole picture.


Continual juvenile hardwood harvest is a disaster that leads to housing subdivisions and will eventually turn TN into the new FL. My worst nightmare really.


Prime stands will not return until there is both education applied to the landholder, and labor applied to the land, then a skipped generation of harvesting after the TSI.  Im trying to stay optomistic about that.  Actually no.. I have a pessimistic outlook on it that i try not to let bother me.



The lack of ATV sized iron with skidder level durability and a fathomable price tag is an issue that i am passionate about.  I think ive quizzed 5 forestors of both consulting and county extension flavor.  None have heard of anyone selling TSI.  I feel its safe to conclude that work simply isnt being done on the vast majority of forested acres.


I only know one good forest steward.  And i know its hard work.. Something each generation gets more and more allergic to.  Hard worker seems to be much harder to find than a financer for a huge pricetag custom machine being purchased with institutional, NGO or corporate dollars.  so thats a bright spot for me right?

[stavebuyer]

I don't see much real world practical use unless its subsidized "feel good" harvests by the TIMO's as a sales gimmick to retain backing from Ivy league endowment funds or government contract stipulation(leave it to the government to loose money any on an asset sale that any other seller could profit from)

Big tracts are getting fewer every day. Just about every rural property here now gets chunked up like a jigsaw puzzle and brings a fortune. Growing timber doesn't pay, has never paid, and probably won't ever pay what other uses do. 

How are you going to move that equipment to a 5 acre sale?

[nativewolf]

Yep, this sort of project is a beta.  Conservation fund will learn a bit and digest it.   They are very aware of parceling issue on east coast.

[mudfarmer]

Yep, this sort of project is a beta.  Conservation fund will learn a bit and digest it.   They are very aware of parceling issue on east coast.

Tell them to call me, there are two >1000acre parcels for sale within half hour of me one a little more than 1M one less both river frontage and I would quit my job tomorrow for a >1yr contract to manage either one ;D

edit: Oh and it's not anywhere near that dang steep

[WV Sawmiller]

   My son got an AS in Forestry along with his BS and I remember reading one of his books written by one of the first professional foresters in the USA. He was a German hired by the Vanderbilts to manage their land around the Biltmore House in NC. He said the problem with timber was the owner needed to realize income in his lifetime. Their priority for land management was what paid the best. Flat land became crop land. Rolling hills became orchards and pasture. Steep hillside were cut for firewood and timber. I don't think there was much market for pulpwood back then. He did stress one of the big values for state and federal parkland was they could afford to let the trees grow and they could serve as a seed bank of sort from the old growth trees that private landowners could not afford to raise.

  I'm all for growing trees and wildlife but I also feel a landowner should be able to profit from his land, time and investment.

   I saw it in Africa where the villagers were able to profit from tourism generated by their wildlife but they had to be able to earn a living and support a family. It is easy to say "Leave those gorillas or elephants alone and in10-20 years you and your family can earn a living from the visitors coming to see them" but what do you tell the man who honestly says "Yeah, but I'm starving now."?

   Its even more frustrating and scary now with existing and proposed tax plans and inheritance taxes that force the new owners to sell part of the land or the timber or such off their inheritance just to be able to keep the land.  

[mike_belben]

It all economics.. Literally the study of the allocation of scarce resources.



If mankind was present the sequoia woulda never become the giant sequoia. Thats all there is to it.  Treasure is discovered then depleted by man. 

[moodnacreek]

Conservation Fund backed

You answered my question.  Cuz i sure dont see the wood there to pay for the cable crew at all.

Spend 3mil to make 500k.  Great business model.

Firewood must be $500 a cord.

[Wudman]

I've done a good bit of work with the Nature Conservancy (Google Piney Grove Preserve - I had my hands in that before TNC and provided some technical assistance on the front end of the project) and know a few folks over at the Conservation Fund.  In my opinion, both of these are pretty good groups.  They put their money where their mouth is.  Neither is the antagonist that is often associated with "environmental groups".  If they identify a project of particular concern, they bring the money to the table and buy it.  I think both are financed primarily through donations, but both also generate cash flow from the properties they own.    

Both of these groups out in Appalachia are trying to make it economically feasible for the small landowner to actively manage his resource (sawmills, pulpmills, chipmills, pellet plants, mulch plants, etc.)  The lands have been highgraded for generations and have very little potential as is.  They are attempting to put resources in place that will generate a cash return for the landowner so that he can properly manage his resource.  If he can manage his resource, it will contribute to the group's greater purpose of landscape level conservation (notice conservation - not locked up unusable preservation).

As for Lyme, they are a TIMO.  Whether or not one can generate a return on investment is partially based on what one paid for it on the front end.  If you buy it at the right price, there can be some meat on the bone.  Much of this land was old coal company land.  I looked at some of it about 25 years ago.  If I remember correctly, the asking price was less than $200 per acre.  It was steep.  It was rough.  I saw some of the junkiest oak and locust you would ever see.  I saw some beautiful yellow poplar and a few cherries in the coves.  Getting it out was another story.  I remember one block in particular (about 10,000 acres.)  I drove to the access point with road frontage as indicated on my map.  There was a 50 foot high sheer rock road cut fronting the state highway.  I scratched my head.  There was an old fellow in his yard across from me.  I walked across and struck up a conversation.  I asked him about the access to the block.  He told me there was a road there about 50 years ago before they improved the state highway (that 50 foot cut).  He didn't know how to get in there now.

With the price of hardwood pulpwood in this area over the last few months, I could truck it 200 miles and still break even.  A typical year in July, I can't give it away.



Wudman  

[nativewolf]

Yep, this sort of project is a beta.  Conservation fund will learn a bit and digest it.   They are very aware of parceling issue on east coast.

Tell them to call me, there are two >1000acre parcels for sale within half hour of me one a little more than 1M one less both river frontage and I would quit my job tomorrow for a >1yr contract to manage either one ;D

edit: Oh and it's not anywhere near that dang steep

Lyme and other TIMOs may have already looked.

[stavebuyer]

I have been dealing with Lyme for a long, long time. Logs as well as standing timber. The whole FSC certified wood program is a laughing stock.

As far as NYS goes nobody will buy land there as a timber investment.  The reason land sells cheap is that taxes are insanely high to keep it. I owned timberland in the western tier there back in the 80s. Obscene is the only way to describe the taxes.

[moodnacreek]

It always bothers me to see a show like that. It causes land owners and certain tree cutters to call me and sometimes even show up with junk wood thinking I will either buy it or saw it for them. It just adds to my enemy list that is already to big.

[Riwaka]

Seems Lyme and affiliates have collectively forest holdings exceeding 1.5 million acres.

The West Virginia parcel is 163500 acres should keep the land clearing crew going for a day or few.

Portfolio - Lyme Timber

Explains where the $ might have come from.

The Lyme Timber Company LP Closes  Million of New Markets Tax Credit Capacity from CCML to Sustainably Steward West Virginia Forestland | CEI

[quilbilly]

Tethering is a huge deal nowdays out here. Big business. Some of the stuff they can do is incredible. I just have no idea how much wood y'all have back there to pay for it. Timber is such a regional thing.

[WV Sawmiller]

It always bothers me to see a show like that. It causes land owners and certain tree cutters to call me and sometimes even show up with junk wood thinking I will either buy it or saw it for them. It just adds to my enemy list that is already to big.

Moody,

   I don't understand. Just tell them "Sorry, I don't buy and can't saw pulpwood on my mill" and direct them to go call the pulp buyer. I don't see why they would be upset about that.

   I assume the folks cutting that patch in Pineville are selling it to the pulpwood buyers. I see loads of it going to the buyers on both I-64 and I-77 on either side of where I live.

[Riwaka]

Need a bit of forest to make 900K tons of product from a mill per year.

West Rock, Covington

CEO Steve Voorhees Visits Our Paper Mill in Covington, Virginia - YouTube

[moodnacreek]

It always bothers me to see a show like that. It causes land owners and certain tree cutters to call me and sometimes even show up with junk wood thinking I will either buy it or saw it for them. It just adds to my enemy list that is already to big.

Moody,

  I don't understand. Just tell them "Sorry, I don't buy and can't saw pulpwood on my mill" and direct them to go call the pulp buyer. I don't see why they would be upset about that.

  I assume the folks cutting that patch in Pineville are selling it to the pulpwood buyers. I see loads of it going to the buyers on both I-64 and I-77 on either side of where I live.

You don't understand because it doesn't happen to you. I know it sounds far fetched but it happens.

[mudfarmer]

I have been dealing with Lyme for a long, long time. Logs as well as standing timber. The whole FSC certified wood program is a laughing stock.

As far as NYS goes nobody will buy land there as a timber investment.  The reason land sells cheap is that taxes are insanely high to keep it. I owned timberland in the western tier there back in the 80s. Obscene is the only way to describe the taxes.

That's weird, I've been surrounded by timber investment properties here my whole life. Yes there are less now, some have been turned over to the state, some are on the market, most have been cut to smithereens, but all the large parcels left here have been timber land owned by various groups. Seems like they have had no trouble paying the taxes, lots use hunting camp leases to cover these baseline costs and then harvests are where the profits are generated. It also seems like it would make sense to have something large that is only a timber speculation vehicle locked up in 480a or similar to lower the tax burden further.


It looks like Lyme bought 250k acres in 2006 from IP in the Adirondacks, why would they do that if nobody will buy land here for timber investment? Lyme Adirondack Forest Company - Lyme Timber What they did is a common formula - sell a conservation easement to the state (undoubtedly after a massive harvest if history rings true), then chunked off 45,000 acres for sale, then sold the rest to an insurance company that they now manage it for.


But I was not talking about buying land as a timber investment, rather buying land as a conservation investment to protect against future fragmentation. This is happening a lot more, including an attempt to create a wildlife corridor from the Adirondacks to Lake Champlain ( Safeguarding an Adirondack Wildlife Corridor, for Wildlife and People - Rewilding )

[nativewolf]

Need a bit of forest to make 900K tons of product from a mill per year.

West Rock, Covington

CEO Steve Voorhees Visits Our Paper Mill in Covington, Virginia - YouTube

Before it was sold and sold again that was a well run mill with great espirit de corps.  Not the case now.  The mill is very well positioned though, very little competition within 100 miles, they produce a variety of products and have lots and lots of small hardwood mills in WV and VA shipping waste products to them.  This is, for hardwood pulp mills, the cheapest and best source of fiber.  They have a good business in activated carbon for ICE vehicles.  So, in 2035 or thereabouts I'd expect that business to decline substantially and that to have a ripple effect on the hardwood industry as we will all have to source a new buyer for sawdust, not chips, but dust itself.  
Anyway, there are spots in WV where you can profitably truck hardwood pulp to Covington, some places in VA.  For us, I still can't make the numbers work.  No trucks...no pulp.  Maybe if it were $100/ton we'd do it.  @wudman at least has real production loggers that can cut and ship pulp profitably.  Very interesting to hear of your positive experiences working with TNC and CF ,  our family has supported both groups for years.  More so TNC, which can be frustrating sometimes but well intentioned.  Good people trying very hard to do good.  

[nativewolf]

I have been dealing with Lyme for a long, long time. Logs as well as standing timber. The whole FSC certified wood program is a laughing stock.

As far as NYS goes nobody will buy land there as a timber investment.  The reason land sells cheap is that taxes are insanely high to keep it. I owned timberland in the western tier there back in the 80s. Obscene is the only way to describe the taxes.

@mudfarmer Lyme is buying timberland in NY, TIMOs buying and selling in the Adirondacks.  At a certain price point they'll make it happen and at the scale they work on they can be innovative in terms of tax payments.
  RE FSC... I could not agree more.  It is basically whitewashed feel good BS.  I've actually peeled back the covers there...fraud is how I would describe it.  

[nativewolf]

Seems Lyme and affiliates have collectively forest holdings exceeding 1.5 million acres.

The West Virginia parcel is 163500 acres should keep the land clearing crew going for a day or few.

Portfolio - Lyme Timber

Explains where the $ might have come from.

The Lyme Timber Company LP Closes  Million of New Markets Tax Credit Capacity from CCML to Sustainably Steward West Virginia Forestland | CEI

Lyme is a slick group.  Not bad ..just slick.  Sometimes it takes someone a bit slick to turn a terrible proposition into something workable.  I give them credit and the Conservation Fund credit for taking the time and energy and $ to make this happen.  Hopefully it spills over.  Just the training and setup for the JD dealer to support this must have been a year long endeavor.  

[nativewolf]

Tethering is a huge deal nowdays out here. Big business. Some of the stuff they can do is incredible. I just have no idea how much wood y'all have back there to pay for it. Timber is such a regional thing.

Is all the tethering with track based cutters or do any of them use CTL?  I know Ponsse and others have been pushing it but I have no context or experience.   I'm intrigued.  

[Skeans1]

Tethering is a huge deal nowdays out here. Big business. Some of the stuff they can do is incredible. I just have no idea how much wood y'all have back there to pay for it. Timber is such a regional thing.

Is all the tethering with track based cutters or do any of them use CTL?  I know Ponsse and others have been pushing it but I have no context or experience.   I'm intrigued.  

Track based is the biggest section of it with both of the main brands having a tail hold machine on the road. I remember sitting through a class on tethering that had one of the Ponsse tethering talking about they had one slide down the hill when the tail hold stump let go. That system isn't a great solution unless you have a D8 sitting on the road to hold you well you're on the hill.

[Riwaka]

Most combinations have been tried.

This is an eco forst T winch (out of sight) with a John Deere wheel harvester/ ctl processor in Austria.

Most traction assist systems have their pluses and minuses.

Tethered by T-WINCH 10.2 - YouTube

and in the snow

John Deere 1470E IT4 bei der Arbeit - YouTube

[Mountaynman]

Seems to me they did some studys years ago with high lead cable loggin in the smokey mountains ans the conclusion was that unless they were cutting 10mbf feet to the acre of high grade hardwood or doing clearcut cleanups like that it wasnt feasible to do. Sure looks like they are moving into the clearcut cleanup mode now must be times have changed. When lyme first bought their ADK timber from IP back in 06 they did a tremendous amount of shelterwood cutting leaving 60 basal area of log trees per acre where they could looks like most of the log trees are just about ready to harvest after not having to fight with the pulp for nutrients and moisture. Wonder if they will try something like that up here not sure how it will work with our large rock population lots of the tumble rock and erratics the size of 10 wheelers around not much soil on the hilltops either

[nativewolf]

Seems to me they did some studys years ago with high lead cable loggin in the smokey mountains ans the conclusion was that unless they were cutting 10mbf feet to the acre of high grade hardwood or doing clearcut cleanups like that it wasnt feasible to do. Sure looks like they are moving into the clearcut cleanup mode now must be times have changed. When lyme first bought their ADK timber from IP back in 06 they did a tremendous amount of shelterwood cutting leaving 60 basal area of log trees per acre where they could looks like most of the log trees are just about ready to harvest after not having to fight with the pulp for nutrients and moisture. Wonder if they will try something like that up here not sure how it will work with our large rock population lots of the tumble rock and erratics the size of 10 wheelers around not much soil on the hilltops either

Sounds like they did a good job.  

[Mountaynman]

For sure trying to reverse over a hundred years of feeding the pulp mill to trying to have some valuable log trees to a trained eye it looks great to the masses it looks sparse

[Remle]

I have been dealing with Lyme for a long, long time. Logs as well as standing timber. The whole FSC certified wood program is a laughing stock.

As far as NYS goes nobody will buy land there as a timber investment.  The reason land sells cheap is that taxes are insanely high to keep it. I owned timberland in the western tier there back in the 80s. Obscene is the only way to describe the taxes.

@mudfarmer Lyme is buying timberland in NY, TIMOs buying and selling in the Adirondacks.  At a certain price point they'll make it happen and at the scale they work on they can be innovative in terms of tax payments.
 RE FSC... I could not agree more.  It is basically whitewashed feel good BS.  I've actually peeled back the covers there...fraud is how I would describe it.  

Actually, if is the same tactics ( cleverly designed scheme, it's not fraud at all ) it's a devil in disguise technique. Used by a lumber management company that showed up in the90'in the area stavebuyer referenced. It's an innovative solution in terms of property taxes. Buy up large tracks of land, chop it up into 20/30 acre parcels and keep all present and future timber rights in the deed to the parcels and sell to unsuspecting new owners. Legally the new owner can't even cut brush because it may in 50 +/- grow in to valuable timber.

[RPF2509]

Tethering is becoming the dominant form of harvesting steep slopes in the west.  The main reason is increased productivity with fewer people.  Increased safety is high on the list too as now everyone is in a cab and that helps insurance rates.  With the transition to second growth, the smaller wood does not need as big a machine but they still can handle impressively sized trees.  The big reason behind moving to more cable logging is to protect the streams and get the roads out of the creeks and on the ridges.  Downhill yarding with ground equipment is guaranteed to impact the water.  I've seen the damage downhill yarding can do - that's why CA has a ton of rules to regulate logging.  The property I work on now has several conservation easements and its all about protecting the water.  Lyme bought out the property I used to work on in Ft. Bragg, CA  and its all steep.   From what I've heard Lyme has done nothing but good for the forest in Ft Bragg (used to be owned by Georgia Pacific who treated it as a cash cow).  A big movement in forestry is selling Carbon credits where you get paid to retain trees or hold them for a longer rotation.  It may seem a bit of a scam but now forestry is getting paid for values that they have not been able to monetize in the past for the good of the woods

[nativewolf]

Interesting.  So you're in N CA?  hope you have a mild fire season!

[RPF2509]

Its going to be a long dry summer.  Current rainfall in NorCal is 50% of average.  So far no precipitation in April and none in sight.  Snowpack is melting out several weeks ahead of normal schedule.

[Riwaka]

Lyme and Rossi buy sawmill.

Lyme, Rossi Group buy Danzer sawmill | Bradford | bradfordera.com.