West Virginia Cable loggers

[quilbilly]

Tethering is a huge deal nowdays out here. Big business. Some of the stuff they can do is incredible. I just have no idea how much wood y'all have back there to pay for it. Timber is such a regional thing.

[WV Sawmiller]

It always bothers me to see a show like that. It causes land owners and certain tree cutters to call me and sometimes even show up with junk wood thinking I will either buy it or saw it for them. It just adds to my enemy list that is already to big.

Moody,

   I don't understand. Just tell them "Sorry, I don't buy and can't saw pulpwood on my mill" and direct them to go call the pulp buyer. I don't see why they would be upset about that.

   I assume the folks cutting that patch in Pineville are selling it to the pulpwood buyers. I see loads of it going to the buyers on both I-64 and I-77 on either side of where I live.

[Riwaka]

Need a bit of forest to make 900K tons of product from a mill per year.

West Rock, Covington

CEO Steve Voorhees Visits Our Paper Mill in Covington, Virginia - YouTube

[moodnacreek]

It always bothers me to see a show like that. It causes land owners and certain tree cutters to call me and sometimes even show up with junk wood thinking I will either buy it or saw it for them. It just adds to my enemy list that is already to big.

Moody,

  I don't understand. Just tell them "Sorry, I don't buy and can't saw pulpwood on my mill" and direct them to go call the pulp buyer. I don't see why they would be upset about that.

  I assume the folks cutting that patch in Pineville are selling it to the pulpwood buyers. I see loads of it going to the buyers on both I-64 and I-77 on either side of where I live.

You don't understand because it doesn't happen to you. I know it sounds far fetched but it happens.

[mudfarmer]

I have been dealing with Lyme for a long, long time. Logs as well as standing timber. The whole FSC certified wood program is a laughing stock.

As far as NYS goes nobody will buy land there as a timber investment.  The reason land sells cheap is that taxes are insanely high to keep it. I owned timberland in the western tier there back in the 80s. Obscene is the only way to describe the taxes.

That's weird, I've been surrounded by timber investment properties here my whole life. Yes there are less now, some have been turned over to the state, some are on the market, most have been cut to smithereens, but all the large parcels left here have been timber land owned by various groups. Seems like they have had no trouble paying the taxes, lots use hunting camp leases to cover these baseline costs and then harvests are where the profits are generated. It also seems like it would make sense to have something large that is only a timber speculation vehicle locked up in 480a or similar to lower the tax burden further.


It looks like Lyme bought 250k acres in 2006 from IP in the Adirondacks, why would they do that if nobody will buy land here for timber investment? Lyme Adirondack Forest Company - Lyme Timber What they did is a common formula - sell a conservation easement to the state (undoubtedly after a massive harvest if history rings true), then chunked off 45,000 acres for sale, then sold the rest to an insurance company that they now manage it for.


But I was not talking about buying land as a timber investment, rather buying land as a conservation investment to protect against future fragmentation. This is happening a lot more, including an attempt to create a wildlife corridor from the Adirondacks to Lake Champlain ( Safeguarding an Adirondack Wildlife Corridor, for Wildlife and People - Rewilding )

[nativewolf]

Need a bit of forest to make 900K tons of product from a mill per year.

West Rock, Covington

CEO Steve Voorhees Visits Our Paper Mill in Covington, Virginia - YouTube

Before it was sold and sold again that was a well run mill with great espirit de corps.  Not the case now.  The mill is very well positioned though, very little competition within 100 miles, they produce a variety of products and have lots and lots of small hardwood mills in WV and VA shipping waste products to them.  This is, for hardwood pulp mills, the cheapest and best source of fiber.  They have a good business in activated carbon for ICE vehicles.  So, in 2035 or thereabouts I'd expect that business to decline substantially and that to have a ripple effect on the hardwood industry as we will all have to source a new buyer for sawdust, not chips, but dust itself.  
Anyway, there are spots in WV where you can profitably truck hardwood pulp to Covington, some places in VA.  For us, I still can't make the numbers work.  No trucks...no pulp.  Maybe if it were $100/ton we'd do it.  @wudman at least has real production loggers that can cut and ship pulp profitably.  Very interesting to hear of your positive experiences working with TNC and CF ,  our family has supported both groups for years.  More so TNC, which can be frustrating sometimes but well intentioned.  Good people trying very hard to do good.  

[nativewolf]

I have been dealing with Lyme for a long, long time. Logs as well as standing timber. The whole FSC certified wood program is a laughing stock.

As far as NYS goes nobody will buy land there as a timber investment.  The reason land sells cheap is that taxes are insanely high to keep it. I owned timberland in the western tier there back in the 80s. Obscene is the only way to describe the taxes.

@mudfarmer Lyme is buying timberland in NY, TIMOs buying and selling in the Adirondacks.  At a certain price point they'll make it happen and at the scale they work on they can be innovative in terms of tax payments.
  RE FSC... I could not agree more.  It is basically whitewashed feel good BS.  I've actually peeled back the covers there...fraud is how I would describe it.  

[nativewolf]

Seems Lyme and affiliates have collectively forest holdings exceeding 1.5 million acres.

The West Virginia parcel is 163500 acres should keep the land clearing crew going for a day or few.

Portfolio - Lyme Timber

Explains where the $ might have come from.

The Lyme Timber Company LP Closes  Million of New Markets Tax Credit Capacity from CCML to Sustainably Steward West Virginia Forestland | CEI

Lyme is a slick group.  Not bad ..just slick.  Sometimes it takes someone a bit slick to turn a terrible proposition into something workable.  I give them credit and the Conservation Fund credit for taking the time and energy and $ to make this happen.  Hopefully it spills over.  Just the training and setup for the JD dealer to support this must have been a year long endeavor.  

[nativewolf]

Tethering is a huge deal nowdays out here. Big business. Some of the stuff they can do is incredible. I just have no idea how much wood y'all have back there to pay for it. Timber is such a regional thing.

Is all the tethering with track based cutters or do any of them use CTL?  I know Ponsse and others have been pushing it but I have no context or experience.   I'm intrigued.  

[Skeans1]

Tethering is a huge deal nowdays out here. Big business. Some of the stuff they can do is incredible. I just have no idea how much wood y'all have back there to pay for it. Timber is such a regional thing.

Is all the tethering with track based cutters or do any of them use CTL?  I know Ponsse and others have been pushing it but I have no context or experience.   I'm intrigued.  

Track based is the biggest section of it with both of the main brands having a tail hold machine on the road. I remember sitting through a class on tethering that had one of the Ponsse tethering talking about they had one slide down the hill when the tail hold stump let go. That system isn't a great solution unless you have a D8 sitting on the road to hold you well you're on the hill.

[Riwaka]

Most combinations have been tried.

This is an eco forst T winch (out of sight) with a John Deere wheel harvester/ ctl processor in Austria.

Most traction assist systems have their pluses and minuses.

Tethered by T-WINCH 10.2 - YouTube

and in the snow

John Deere 1470E IT4 bei der Arbeit - YouTube

[Mountaynman]

Seems to me they did some studys years ago with high lead cable loggin in the smokey mountains ans the conclusion was that unless they were cutting 10mbf feet to the acre of high grade hardwood or doing clearcut cleanups like that it wasnt feasible to do. Sure looks like they are moving into the clearcut cleanup mode now must be times have changed. When lyme first bought their ADK timber from IP back in 06 they did a tremendous amount of shelterwood cutting leaving 60 basal area of log trees per acre where they could looks like most of the log trees are just about ready to harvest after not having to fight with the pulp for nutrients and moisture. Wonder if they will try something like that up here not sure how it will work with our large rock population lots of the tumble rock and erratics the size of 10 wheelers around not much soil on the hilltops either

[nativewolf]

Seems to me they did some studys years ago with high lead cable loggin in the smokey mountains ans the conclusion was that unless they were cutting 10mbf feet to the acre of high grade hardwood or doing clearcut cleanups like that it wasnt feasible to do. Sure looks like they are moving into the clearcut cleanup mode now must be times have changed. When lyme first bought their ADK timber from IP back in 06 they did a tremendous amount of shelterwood cutting leaving 60 basal area of log trees per acre where they could looks like most of the log trees are just about ready to harvest after not having to fight with the pulp for nutrients and moisture. Wonder if they will try something like that up here not sure how it will work with our large rock population lots of the tumble rock and erratics the size of 10 wheelers around not much soil on the hilltops either

Sounds like they did a good job.  

[Mountaynman]

For sure trying to reverse over a hundred years of feeding the pulp mill to trying to have some valuable log trees to a trained eye it looks great to the masses it looks sparse

[Remle]

I have been dealing with Lyme for a long, long time. Logs as well as standing timber. The whole FSC certified wood program is a laughing stock.

As far as NYS goes nobody will buy land there as a timber investment.  The reason land sells cheap is that taxes are insanely high to keep it. I owned timberland in the western tier there back in the 80s. Obscene is the only way to describe the taxes.

@mudfarmer Lyme is buying timberland in NY, TIMOs buying and selling in the Adirondacks.  At a certain price point they'll make it happen and at the scale they work on they can be innovative in terms of tax payments.
 RE FSC... I could not agree more.  It is basically whitewashed feel good BS.  I've actually peeled back the covers there...fraud is how I would describe it.  

Actually, if is the same tactics ( cleverly designed scheme, it's not fraud at all ) it's a devil in disguise technique. Used by a lumber management company that showed up in the90'in the area stavebuyer referenced. It's an innovative solution in terms of property taxes. Buy up large tracks of land, chop it up into 20/30 acre parcels and keep all present and future timber rights in the deed to the parcels and sell to unsuspecting new owners. Legally the new owner can't even cut brush because it may in 50 +/- grow in to valuable timber.

[RPF2509]

Tethering is becoming the dominant form of harvesting steep slopes in the west.  The main reason is increased productivity with fewer people.  Increased safety is high on the list too as now everyone is in a cab and that helps insurance rates.  With the transition to second growth, the smaller wood does not need as big a machine but they still can handle impressively sized trees.  The big reason behind moving to more cable logging is to protect the streams and get the roads out of the creeks and on the ridges.  Downhill yarding with ground equipment is guaranteed to impact the water.  I've seen the damage downhill yarding can do - that's why CA has a ton of rules to regulate logging.  The property I work on now has several conservation easements and its all about protecting the water.  Lyme bought out the property I used to work on in Ft. Bragg, CA  and its all steep.   From what I've heard Lyme has done nothing but good for the forest in Ft Bragg (used to be owned by Georgia Pacific who treated it as a cash cow).  A big movement in forestry is selling Carbon credits where you get paid to retain trees or hold them for a longer rotation.  It may seem a bit of a scam but now forestry is getting paid for values that they have not been able to monetize in the past for the good of the woods

[nativewolf]

Interesting.  So you're in N CA?  hope you have a mild fire season!

[RPF2509]

Its going to be a long dry summer.  Current rainfall in NorCal is 50% of average.  So far no precipitation in April and none in sight.  Snowpack is melting out several weeks ahead of normal schedule.

[Riwaka]

Lyme and Rossi buy sawmill.

Lyme, Rossi Group buy Danzer sawmill | Bradford | bradfordera.com.