I'm currently a factory worker, and an after hours fabricator/wood cutter. I have spent most of my life working outside doing landscaping/lawn maintenance, I love working outside. One off season I hopped into this factory job and stuck with it a few years now but I'm not a fan of it. I've been cutting and selling as much firewood as possible and word of mouth has landed me as much work as I can handle and then some. I've acquired some gear all of which is paid for. One ton Dodge dually flatbed, 18' gooseneck equipment trailer, bumper pull log trailer, small skidder (homebuilt from trencher), MS660 & 360 as well as a few smaller saws and two great splitters. I've still a lot to learn about trees. I've had a couple woodlots offered to me that would keep me in full time work for a year or better. I question the sanity in doing firewood full time especially here. It's been good for some cash flow to help pay for my equipment but I've realized already I don't have enough time to cut and haul and split. Finding reliable help to split part time is impossible and I pay them then sit on the wood until it sells at $150/cord (as much as local market will bear). Going full time firewood would be nothing but a money pit, needing an ever growing list of equipment to keep up with it and running out of room on my land to deal with it all. Having a machine that can remove logs is quite an asset. One of these woodlots is loaded with lots of good hardwood. Realizing I will never have enough time to cut haul and split it all, and will go broke doing so until it all sells, it hit me. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree. I don't know enough about timber but thinking even low grade probably would be better cash flow and profit than trying to do firewood. I can still haul out as much firewood as I want from the tops and undesirable stuff. I have an OWB so it's nice for burning all that stuff without much labor involved. My future brother in law is a logger and might be able to get me into the door with a mill and log hauler. I wasn't planning on jumping into this but it's tempting. Can I make a decent living serving the small lot niche market doing low impact logging? Many farmers here want clear cut done, and other land owners that like nice woods for hunting would want it thinned with trails. Since things are paid for I could take it slow and take my time to make smart moves. What am I really getting into if I do this? Would you do it? I'm afraid to ask my brother in law's opinion. I'm 28 and he's younger than me but has a lot of experience in logging and excavating.
By a decent living, I make $40k a year before taxes right now, plus cash stuff on the side, maybe $10k a year there in a good year. that's what I need to clear to stay in good shape. I'd be better off in life making more obviously but I've always been able to make it work. I'm good at that. Can I make that much starting out with this stuff? Even if most stuff goes for low grade, and I'm getting it free the first year or so? Until I learn a bit more. Farmers are crazy here they would burn a hundred thousand in timber before thinking to sell it. They just want more farm land.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40438/IMG_20151022_115852440_HDR.jpg)
better to just keep doing what you are doing...period!
I didn't see how old you are,,have kids? home paid for? How will you pay for a major breakdown, health insurance?
tempting it is, and, I did that very thing in '82..and I got 'lucky', but my wife had a good job with family insurance coverage, and timber prices were high. With the world being as it is nowadays, I wouldn't even think about it,,,until I was at least semi-retired.
Rather than focusing exclusively on firewood, I would get familiar with niche markets in your region, and see what I could do to cut for those markets, along with the firewood. Firewood can be a consistent flow of work and some income, but I would look at that portion as busy work. The good money would be in filling niche markets, high grade saw logs, landscaping timbers, fencing, construction timbers, dredge and dock pilings, logs for log home building, rail stock for log home building, figured wood to slab for specialty builders, etc. I think that if one takes a larger look at what yo can do to market a variety of wood products, you can weather the financial cycles much better, then someone who specializes in just one thing, be it firewood, pulp markets, or sawlogs. There is even a decent market in some areas for waste products like sawdust, and bark mulch. FWIW
Quote from: mad murdock on November 06, 2015, 10:56:28 AM
Rather than focusing exclusively on firewood, I would get familiar with niche markets in your region, and see what I could do to cut for those markets, along with the firewood. Firewood can be a consistent flow of work and some income, but I would look at that portion as busy work. The good money would be in filling niche markets, high grade saw logs, landscaping timbers, fencing, construction timbers, dredge and dock pilings, logs for log home building, rail stock for log home building, figured wood to slab for specialty builders, etc. I think that if one takes a larger look at what yo can do to market a variety of wood products, you can weather the financial cycles much better, then someone who specializes in just one thing, be it firewood, pulp markets, or sawlogs. There is even a decent market in some areas for waste products like sawdust, and bark mulch. FWIW
Thanks for the input guys. I didn't mean to do firewood full time but rather as you say, do logging and do firewood when I need busy work. The question is could this rig be enough for me to earn a solid sustainable income?
Quote from: Decked on November 06, 2015, 10:49:35 AM
better to just keep doing what you are doing...period!
I didn't see how old you are,,have kids? home paid for? How will you pay for a major breakdown, health insurance?
tempting it is, and, I did that very thing in '82..and I got 'lucky', but my wife had a good job with family insurance coverage, and timber prices were high. With the world being as it is nowadays, I wouldn't even think about it,,,until I was at least semi-retired.
I'm 28. Maybe I didn't mention it in the original post sorry.
bigblue
QuoteThe question is could this rig be enough for me to earn a solid sustainable income?
"this rig" meaning the one pictured?
Quote from: beenthere on November 06, 2015, 01:06:02 PM
bigblue
QuoteThe question is could this rig be enough for me to earn a solid sustainable income?
"this rig" meaning the one pictured?
Affirmative sir
I think that your mini skidder would do well for doing what you need for specialized logging, high grade products or niche forest products, especially with the small footprint, you could go after real small woodlots, specialized logging type things, but for a staple wood producing venture, more skidder is needed, IMO, at minimum something like a Garrett model 10 or TJ205. If you get going on the specialty stuff though, might be all you would need. For firewod, i wouldnt think it would get it out in large enough quantities, nor quick enough.
bigblue
This "rig" just came off your assembly line. It looks great, and your build was interesting and impressive.
BUT, as of early this week, we are still waiting for some action shots of the "rig" in action. I think that will tell you if it is capable of making you a living.
I'm along the line of mad murdock.. that it will turn out that more skidder is needed. Could be wrong, but it is a significant part of the equation that you don't know either.. as I see it.
What are your prospects for giving the "rig" some field trials cleaning out a woods??
Don't want to see you leap into something that might not work out for you and family.
Quote from: beenthere on November 06, 2015, 04:36:01 PM
bigblue
This "rig" just came off your assembly line. It looks great, and your build was interesting and impressive.
BUT, as of early this week, we are still waiting for some action shots of the "rig" in action. I think that will tell you if it is capable of making you a living.
I'm along the line of mad murdock.. that it will turn out that more skidder is needed. Could be wrong, but it is a significant part of the equation that you don't know either.. as I see it.
What are your prospects for giving the "rig" some field trials cleaning out a woods??
Don't want to see you leap into something that might not work out for you and family.
Thank you, it's not like I'm turning my resignation into my employer immediately. Just thinking of options in the not too distant future. Yes I definitely need to get this thing out and see what it can handle. From what I've heard from other guys with similar conversions, we should be impressed with it's ability. Hopefully so. I built it to help with my firewood operation after realizing I could keep such a machine busy on free wood lots from people I know. If it can pull firewood logs, it can pull saw logs. But we don't know yet if it's productive enough to be useful for a small start up company.
The fact that it's easily moved and paid for are both pretty heavily in its favor. I've got work lined up for it, problem is right now not having enough daylight after work to do anything, and they've even been making us work a lot of Saturdays lately as well.
Definitely must be making smart moves. My house is the only thing I owe on, that helps me out. I can pay all my bills on a lot less than 40k a year, as said that's before taxes, insurance, retirement, etc. I only take home 60% -/+ of that. Just paying the income tax without the rest of the deductions would be a lot less. I figure if I could make it a year or two with this machine I could purchase a larger machine down the road.
I am only familiar with the wood market in my area, that being said, i would think it would be difficult to make a living with what you have now. Half a million worth of equipment wont make it much easier just more cash flow. you have to likely go through a wood dealer to sell your wood so they will get a cut. You do not get to set the price for your products, the mill or dealer that buys the wood will tell you how much they are going to pay you. So careful on price you give the land owner as the mill price might have dropped before you get it delivered. If you go for it, try not to get so in debt that a couple weeks of foul weather or a breakdown puts you in hot water with the lender. I personally have found it more profitable to repair others loggers machines than log myself. But there are other aspects like quality of life. Even though i don't log I could never see my self anywhere but in the woods.
And... I will hopefully never be employed by any one other than myself. I will make my own mistakes not implement someone else s'. BY the way sweet rig you made there.
The machine isn't the problem. The problem is keeping it and everything else going daily. Then that wood that you have for a year you have to have market for it. Hope that don't change to much in the time it will take you to cut the Stumpage "standing timber". Then insurance, taxes and the other gobs of simple paper work. Then what to do when that wood is gone or rather before it's gone. Are u going to go knock on doors? Hire a forester? Buy state fed. Stumpage? I hope u dive in and do well. I realy do. I want it more then anyone and haven't made the full time move yet. I've logged and was raised by a logger my hole life. Went bigger and bigger in firewood and it never ends. I quite that and now going to work out of my shop on my spare time to rebuild my stuff sell it and buy more to work up to a paid for skidder. That's the plans anyways. Some day I will be self employed or at least fail trying. Just have to look out for the family first.
Hmm.
I look at my friends that took a job working for someone else when they were your age, and they are retiring, or already retired now. Sometimes I think; Wow, how different could life have been? Then I think about it, and if I changed one thing in my life, it would likely change everything in my life. I really like who I'm with, where I am, and who I have become. My wife and I raised 10 kids together, and I'm pretty fond of all of them, and their kids.
Your questions were:
Can I make it with what I have?
Would you do it?
My answer is:
The odds are against you in the worst way. But, how bad do you want it? How tough are you? Because if you "go for it", you will have the stuffin' beat out of you on a regular basis. Not just physically, but mentally, emotionally, and spiritually as well.
Your second question is a bit unfair. But, yeah, I did long ago.
There's no need in thinking that you're going to make 50 grand a year right out of the box. Heck, there will be years you may lose money. Like I said earlier, it's all about how bad do you want it.
This is a decision that you'll have to make for yourself, and regardless of what decision you make, hopefully one day you'll be able to say; I like who I'm with, where I am, and who I have become.
Logging isn't something you do for a living. It's a lifestyle!
You can certainly get a start with that layout, but you might not want to plan on making a living with it.
While your skencher will be aces for certain applications, it's not designed to carry any more weight than itself and related implements.
Skidders are built burly not only to pull suitable payload day-in day-out, but to continue pulling day after day.
After day.
It's a lot like doing hobby machining with an affordable bench-top mill vs. doing production with massive iron.
The odds then, are heavy against.
But don't let that stop you.
Bad weather ahead. I see it all around. Keep doing what your doing, day job too. Any wood you can't sell squarel away. Grow garden, hug you kid and kiss the wife. Next fall consider making to move.
Quote from: bigblue12v on November 06, 2015, 04:50:28 PM
Definitely must be making smart moves. My house is the only thing I owe on, that helps me out. I can pay all my bills on a lot less than 40k a year, as said that's before taxes, insurance, retirement, etc. I only take home 60% -/+ of that. Just paying the income tax without the rest of the deductions would be a lot less. I figure if I could make it a year or two with this machine I could purchase a larger machine down the road.
I like your ideas and as you say, you can pay your bills on a lot less. Why not, or what can you loose ?
You will be making less but also paying less taxes as you can right off much more with your business.
Like others said, it all depends how desperate you are , or how tired you are about the factory lob.
Good luck anyways.
You guys are killing me. Against all odds based on general public's pre conceived notions about loggers, y'all are the most realistic down to earth encouraging bunch I've ever met on a forum. I'm dead serious. Over the years I've been on tons of forums for various interests and hobbies and careers I've had. It is with my sincerest gratitude that I express my thanks to you all. Right now it sucks a lot that there isn't enough daylight after work to accomplish much, but perhaps I'm best off to just keep at things the way they are and see how the "skencher" works out (I like that name lol). Maybe I can make enough doing this stuff part time to save back for a full size unit. Or maybe I'll decide I'm just better off keeping it a side job, perhaps find a better full time job. I've been struggling a lot in my mind with the job situation. I would love to be self employed. I can't think of any job working for the man that I could get here that I think I'd enjoy. I've been self employed a couple times before and loved it. Learned valuable lessons as well.
You guys are making it a tough decision for me. Not one to make overnight but perhaps I was hoping you all would persuade me it was a terrible idea and that I would face eminent failure and ruin my life lol.
You sound like your motivated, and I'm close to your age so I know what it's like. My biggest tip for you is to be efficient, find your niche market and expand SLOWLY. I went to a FW expo a while ago and saw lots of guys with stars in their eyes waiting to buy a processor and do 10k cord a yr, till reality hits and the wood supply drys up and they are out of business. Some guys may disagree, but payments are cheaper than repairs, upgrade as you go without going crazy.
Your day job income buffers your risk of the business you're trying to start. It's working.. you're able to buy some equipment.. getting some work. Make a business plan.. how much wood do you have to sell to make 40K a year. 266 cords of wood at 150/cord. Say you can do 4 cords a weekend.. that 66 weekends. You have to figure it out.. things happen.. equipment breaks. Hard work always pays off.. so be safe and best of luck.
Reminds me of a conversation with a customer I had years ago. He was complaining about shop rates, not mine, just shops in general. He claimed he should have been a mechanic instead of a farmer, which he was very successful at.
This was back when shop rates were a whole 25 bucks an hour. lol
I told him he would be a fool to be a mechanic. When he ask why, I told him anybody with a chainsaw and a pickup could make a living, which he knew I had done for a while, and I had shop bills and an ongoing never ending 400 dollar a week snap on payment. lol
I would say the answer to your question is up to you, you can make a living if that is what you want.
All you can do is try, if you don't you'll always wonder, work at it as a sideline till you see how it goes, you are going to need something bigger to commercial log, just grow into it if it works out, pick good solid ground and learn to cut low stumps as you don't have the ground clearance but should work fine with small wood or short logs on good ground, Good Luck.
I know where you live! :D :D :D
I thought about "low impact logging" years ago. I know several landowners who got a sour taste from big logging guys that left their woods a mess. I was even contemplating using horses to drag logs. (I never got into the wood business back there)
There used to be a ton of small custom cabinet shops around there. Niche market lumber? Surely the up-scale homes they build to the north of you need finish wood.
What about becoming an OWB dealer? That could increase your firewood clientele.
Spend some time down around Odon and Washington seeing what the Amish wood guys are doing.
At least there's money where you live.
I am NOT a business person. Just throwing ideas at you.
You're obviously a bright, gifted, motivated young man. Stay on it. You'll find your place.
On my land I cut a cord or 2 a day,2 is a real good day,which does not happen often. That is making it look good. Takes time to do a good-clean job. Maintaining trails takes time too. Nothing gets left that is knocked down. I cut trails to get the wood out,stumps are cut low,you will have to do that too. Any brush that is left behind I try to cut into pieces not much longer than 2 feet. One reason it's looks better,will get on the ground and rot faster and I can drive through it with my tractor and really not fear a piece of 4-5-6 foot limb will put a hole through something.
bigblue12v,
Only you can decide if you are comfortable giving up your full time job and venturing out on your own.The best advice I can give is to live beneath your means,It reduces stress and makes life more enjoyable.My bigger equipment is all 2nd hand but in top operating condition.I would ease in to your new business,see what works,make equipment purchases as needed,and stay out of bid time debt.
Best of luck,
Mick
Hello everyone, I'm new here but I've been reading this forum for a while.
Bigblue12v, what I have not seen mentioned is health insurance, my wife and I are both self employed so we have to pay our own premiums. What we pay would make the payments on an awfully nice skidder.
I didn't see it mentioned if you have insurance through work, does the wife have it etc.
Also, I second what someone else said about a business plan, but be realistic, things will not always go well.
Good luck
Thank you all so much for all your replies I do appreciate it all very much. Not only am I limited to forum access only via my phone but also I am currently at work, hard to respond to each reply but I'll try to cover it best I can.
I don't mind doing some firewood but I don't want to be strictly firewood only. I want to move saw logs. Much less time and labor intensive, and less equipment involved I think. Depends on size of operation I guess. I'd need to buy a processor then a big skidder to feed it. Then I need clientele. Seems like logging and doing what firewood I can handle with current equipment would be more reliable and consistent income with less overhead.
I do have insurance and retirement at my day job. The woman has it available to her at her work but doesn't currently carry insurance policy. We aren't married at this point. No date set either but she's the one. I figure I'm better off to stay here until we are married and she has insurance for the family. By then I'll have more principle paid down on the house, lowering the debt. That'll give me more security. I study our parents generation to see what I should do now. Some work their life away with no retirement, living poor the rest of their existence. others retired on a nice savings and are able to invest their time and money into a part time business and or just live comfortably. I realize no one is getting rich off of logging. And I'm betting many aren't contributing to a retirement account either. It's very tough to do when you're self employed, I know.
I don't think there's as many cabinet shops around here anymore. I know of a veneer place here and another not far away. The owner of one is a previous landlord of mine we always got along well. I think they buy the timber then arrange it's harvest via contract with logging show. Might be that they would be able to set me up with some work but I doubt I'm qualified to handle high dollar veneer felling.
I don't have desire to be a owb dealer but that's a thought. Lots of rural property owners here have them and cut their own wood. Seems if you have an owb, it's because you already had your own wood source. I grew up north of Odon. I was born in Linton actually. Small world huh.
There is also the quality of life issue, besides just the money.
Last winter and so far this winter I have hauled logs, I make WAY less money than I do running my other truck, but enjoy it immensely. I even have to run my other truck some weekends to make it work, actually stupid, but it is not all about the dollar.
One of the loggers I haul for was new last year, and jumped in with both feet. He had run a log truck some quite a few years back, but that was the extent of his logging.
He bought this to start out with.
Timberjack skidder
cat d 4 hu=ightrack grapple logging dozer.
feller buncher
track mounted log proccessor
Trailer mounted timberjack log loader was basically useless, so he mounted it on a oversize oilfield winch bed truck after just a half dozen loads
cat d6c dozer for road work
cat blade also to maintain roads
Nice service truck
nice 2 ton box truck housing a welder , genset (to keep everything plugged in at night) and parts and lube.
log truck, which he sold after 4 or 5 losds, it just didn't work out to log and truck too.
Lowboy trailer to move all this stuff.
This year he added a cat 245 excavator
A cat 235 log loader
A big lowboy with jeep and booster to haul the 245 on.
An old dumptruck for road work.
The thing is, he had the resources to pay cash for all of this, and he bought it all, knowing he would not come out with as much income as he did with his ONE truck, but he sold his truck and went to logging because he likes it better.
Last year he had a bad year, partly because he was green, but mostly because we got glaciered out early on, to the point that he couldn't even get his equipment out, but he broke even, bought another truck and went back to work for a few months.
So far this year promises to be much better, as he has gotten much more efficient to the point he should start getting some of his investment back, IF we don't glacier out again.
The point is, he has for years made a much easier living, and still could, but changed because this is what he wanted to do.
Sometimes it just isn't about the money.
If you have pepper in your ass (swiss saying) then you should go for it.
There is no better feeling than being your own boss, i could never go back to be employed!
Starmac, your friend is wealthy and insane. I like it! Lol however I am far from even dreaming of having such financial resources.
Teakwood, I've never heard the pepper term lol
I think if it weren't for needing to provide for my family I would not even be posting about this, but my family is my top priority. My lady is even supportive of me pursuing a venture I would be happy with. However, I realize I need more experience in forestry before I make such a big step.
I'd have a really hard time working for someone else at this stage in my life. But there are times when it would be nice if I could go home and leave the problems for someone else to worry about. I've about had it with the forest products and am ready for a change ;) ;D
A supportive, understanding, patient spouse with a job with good benefits is very important ;) 8)
Quote from: Corley5 on November 07, 2015, 06:56:44 PM
A supportive, understanding, patient spouse with a job with good benefits is very important ;) 8)
I think I need to wait until this step is fully complete before I really put my neck out there.
Four years ago I quit a state job (forestry) with similar salary and benefits to address the flood of calls for small scale, low-impact, 10-20 trees-type logging jobs. As a certified forester and certified arborist, I understood the science and art of managing the woods. Unfortunately, I didn't know much about the equipment, equipment repair, or economics of managing the forest for a profit.
But, four years later, I'm still standing because I learned enough along the way and because I have a supportive patient wife with salary and benefits adequate enough to cover our bills and living expenses while I brought home next to nothing (or raided our savings to fix a broken down piece of equipment I probably didn't know how to fix).
A couple of things I learned that may help you going in (and these are in no particular order):
Don't buy a piece of equipment if there's someone out there willing to co-operate with you on a project.
Especially don't buy more pieces of equipment than you can operate in one day
If you don't have the equipment to do a job, say no. Don't buy equipment to do a job...find jobs that suit your equipment.
Your equipment is definitely suitable for some of the jobs I have done--small jobs that don't need a tremendous amount of winching but absolutely need a "light on the land" approach.
It's better to fold a winner than play a loser
Say no to big jobs (especially as you're starting out, and especially if you're by yourself). They'll suck you in and then you won't be able to respond to smaller jobs (or small rush jobs) which usually should have a higher margin.
Look for independent operators with equipment who are interested in co-operating. That said, you usually won't ever find these guys until the day AFTER you've bought an expensive piece of equipment!
The other guys on this post probably know more about equipment and what it will do, but I have lots of experience with quitting a good paying job and then spending several years nearly broke. Would I do it again, absolutely, but I would have done it a little bit different. Let me know if there's anything else I can help with.
Dave
Quote from: SWVAlogdog on November 07, 2015, 08:37:27 PM
Four years ago I quit a state job (forestry) with similar salary and benefits to address the flood of calls for small scale, low-impact, 10-20 trees-type logging jobs. As a certified forester and certified arborist, I understood the science and art of managing the woods. Unfortunately, I didn't know much about the equipment, equipment repair, or economics of managing the forest for a profit.
But, four years later, I'm still standing because I learned enough along the way and because I have a supportive patient wife with salary and benefits adequate enough to cover our bills and living expenses while I brought home next to nothing (or raided our savings to fix a broken down piece of equipment I probably didn't know how to fix).
A couple of things I learned that may help you going in (and these are in no particular order):
Don't buy a piece of equipment if there's someone out there willing to co-operate with you on a project.
Especially don't buy more pieces of equipment than you can operate in one day
If you don't have the equipment to do a job, say no. Don't buy equipment to do a job...find jobs that suit your equipment.
Your equipment is definitely suitable for some of the jobs I have done--small jobs that don't need a tremendous amount of winching but absolutely need a "light on the land" approach.
It's better to fold a winner than play a loser
Say no to big jobs (especially as you're starting out, and especially if you're by yourself). They'll suck you in and then you won't be able to respond to smaller jobs (or small rush jobs) which usually should have a higher margin.
Look for independent operators with equipment who are interested in co-operating. That said, you usually won't ever find these guys until the day AFTER you've bought an expensive piece of equipment!
The other guys on this post probably know more about equipment and what it will do, but I have lots of experience with quitting a good paying job and then spending several years nearly broke. Would I do it again, absolutely, but I would have done it a little bit different. Let me know if there's anything else I can help with.
Dave
Dave thanks for your response I see this is your second post so also welcome to the forum. I'm pretty new here myself but as such I find myself mostly lurking and reading more than contributing as I'm still in such a learning phase. So I appreciate your contribution and I would love to chat with you one on one if possible? I'll try to send you a PM. Thank you,
Eric
Kinda gotta ask your self a couple things. Would you do your job still even if you didn't make money at it?
And what's the future plan for when your 75 and gotta retire? I think of those two things often.
Quote from: lynde37avery on November 07, 2015, 09:58:10 PM
Kinda gotta ask your self a couple things. Would you do your job still even if you didn't make money at it?
And what's the future plan for when your 75 and gotta retire? I think of those two things often.
Would I do my factory job free? Absolutely not.
Retirement? Tough one. I have retirement at current job but is it worth working your whole life at a job you don't like just so you can spend your last years able to afford things you can't physically enjoy anyway because you're old and feeble? I fear social security will be non existent by the time you and I get there.
BigBlue, My friend is far from wealthy, He does make good money and is smart with it.
Most of his equipment he picked up for some really great deals, there is a very limited market here for logging equipment in this part of the country, so when somebody needs to sell, they usually take a bath.
I don't know what that skidder you built is capable, but I do know a logger that does most of his skidding with a bobcat, which would be comparable.
He is succesful enough that he runs nice equipment, during the logging season he keeps himself and at least 3 other people employed.
As far as I know he sells no logs, except firewood logs, the rest is run through his woodmizer, which is run by one of his employees.
He moves a lot of wood, and is pretty quick and efficient about it. The advantage with the bobcat over your homebuilt is, it is also what he loads his logs with. He has a small 4 wheel drive international dump with bunks that can handle 16 footers until they get over the cab, then a few 20 footers. He delivers lots of firewood in 12 to 16 foot lengths.
I was told as a young man that when you work for a factory you make a decent living with benefits. Vacation time, health insurance, retirement, etc. That same person told me if you work for yourself you could become rich. You state that you make around $40 thousand at the factory and $10 thousand in the firewood for a total of $50 thousand. What you haven't added in is the benefits. They could easily ad up to another $10 thousand. Also check out Loggers Insurance. Someone said that making payments on new equipment is better than always fixing old equipment. Some truth in that. But and it's a big but! Today new equipment is a huge payment. You can't buy small skidders today unless they are used. I have seen what firewood processors go for and it's scary. lol Not trying to discourage you but a lot has to be looked at. If it were me I think I would stay at the factory till I had more equipment and a little more experience in buying and selling wood. Small used John Deere or Timber Jack or Tree Farmer or International, etc are out there. TJ and TF are fairly close to the same parts so those two would have my attention. Most parts you can get at your local Napa Dealer. An old guy told me once that it takes heavy iron to work in the woods. How much a day will you do? 40 to 45 good size trees cut and de-limbed and dragged to the landing and cut to length and stacked up. That would be a good day for one man. A lot of getting on and off the skidder and a lot of landing work. Then comes the transporting and firewood processing. My equipment is bought and paid for and I don't think I would want to start out today with it. lol Paper Mills are becoming a thing of the past and the wood buyers are very picky on saw logs. Chipping seems to be the big interest around here. It's a tough world today...I am almost glad I am an old fart. lol Good luck in whatever you decide.
Another thing to check on, is what is it going to cost you to get the logs hauled, especially if you have no way to load them.
The reason I mention this is any loads I haul to the pellet mill brings a set anount per ton, the loggers that have no loader and have to rely on a self load truck in this area has to pay the trucker a full half or more of the total log payment. It seems like a lot of work to fell,limg, skid and deck up, plus build roads, take care of slash and other related expenses, to give the trucker half or more of the gross. I mean, I am a trucker and still think about it, I know it would eat on me if I was doing the logging.
Bigblue12v your in about the same boat i was in almost 30 years ago. My Dad had been a logger most of his life, and so naturally thats what i wanted to do. I never did come up with enough courage to try and make a real go of it fulltime, partly because my Dad had become disabled, we were dirt poor and no banker in his right mind would have loaned me a dime. I started cutting timber for a local logger at age 18, loved being in the woods cutting timber, but it was hard work and pay was ok, but not enough to support a family, but i was single at the time. Eventually a year later i bought a 1953 chevy 2 ton truck, had my cousin weld a boom on the back and install a braden winch, and i went a logging. Bought a 1960 ford 2 ton flatbed to haul logs on, loaded them with the winch truck. Timber was easy to buy from local landowners, i knew everybody and everybody knew me and my family. I sold oak logs to the local sawmill, and sold the white oak butt cuts to a stave mill, stave logs paid very very good back then. If i would have used my money wisely back then, which i didn't, i would have ended up with good equipment and probably been a lifelong logger. I ended up marrying, had a factory job and started a family. I know that it's an incredibly hard decision when you know you can make it at your factory job, but your heart wants to be in the woods doing the job you love. I don't want to encourage or discourage you, as i'm not the one who pays your bills or feeds your family. But when the question comes to mind as to whether or not I could have made it, my honest answer is YES ! I am 99 percent sure if i had invested and spent my money wisely, which again I say I didn't , I would have made it. I wish you the best whatever path you take.
Thanks again for the great replies. I'm reading every single one often twice. It's hard to address them all in individual replies but your response is appreciated and definitely not overlooked!
I think that I maybe best to keep it on the side for now, with paid for equipment and minimal experience, and a full time paycheck and benefits from the factory, I have nothing to lose this way and almost everything to gain. I wish there were a big enough firewood operation here that I could just sell log loads to. Not saying the timber market is burnt up here but it would be easier to keep myself making money if I could sell pretty much everything instead of trying to sort through looking for choice saw logs. Now how to locate these small jobs... From what I am hearing, mills here don't like dealing with small loads. I'm not too interested at this point in becoming a full time firewood producer. The people here just won't buy it until it gets cold out. I can't afford to operate 270 days or more without pay. I think firewood is best left to a side gig at this point. I built the skidder to boost productivity and primarily eliminate manual labor in the process. However even without it, finding time to go split wood was difficult this year and I kept busy bringing wood in so my place looked like a low grade small log yard most of the time.
By the way, I got some pictures yesterday of the skidder in action. They're in the skidder build progress thread. Thanks.
bigblue
Add a link to that thread for others to find & follow.
Quote from: beenthere on November 09, 2015, 01:11:59 PM
bigblue
Add a link to that thread for others to find & follow.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,86106.0.html
Hey guys I hate digging up old threads but I did start it, it's been right at a year now, thought I'd update. The skidder is working out good, it pulls an impressive hitch for its size. I've made some changes to it here and there. Also this year I scored a knuckleboom crane and mounted it to my gooseneck trailer, which I turned back into a tri axle. I built nice log bunks for the trailer. I got offered a small logging job which I took and was given much compliments on how the property was undisturbed, the owner couldn't even fit his utility tractor where I'd been but he had nicer ATV trails for hunting. That was about a 4500 bd ft job, I hauled the logs to a mill that treated me very well, they were 8 miles away. I split the tickets with the owner and we were both happy with it everything. I've also hauled some logs from another job to a different mill which has also treated me very fairly. I've gotten so much positive feedback on everything it's very encouraging. Now I have 3 more jobs lined up, one being additional trees from that first job, now that the field has been harvested I can have access to that stand. A week and a half ago I quit my day job. Just had enough and walked out. I'll be accessing some of my retirement money for rainy day fund. Just in the past week I have already made more than I did at my factory job. Sure that's not every week but I didn't do much in this week either. I'm going to give this thing a go and see what happens. If it isn't working, I'll look for another job. I'll bust my rear to make it work though. I've been so much happier! Zero advertising yet and I keep finding small select cut jobs where they do not really have enough for a full size outfit to come in, nor do they want a full size outfit to come in. They are thrilled to find someone like me that can get in and out without cutting roads through their woods or taking semi trucks across their property. Cutting lots of unnecessary trees just for access. Maybe just maybe it'll work out 😊
I can get about 1500 bd ft to a load on my trailer. Right now top grade hardwood is $700/mbf here. 500 for mid grade and 400 for low grade. Tie logs are 350.
I've got one big thing going for me I think. My equipment is all paid for, cheap to use and cheap to move. I've heard many people express concern over getting parts for my skidder, honestly it's so simple and built using very common and available stuff, very few things on it should pose an issue. I have a darn good machinist a few miles down the road that doesn't let family pay for his work and he's readily available as he's retired. If I can't find something, he can make it or I can fabricate a different solution.
I absolutely loathe the photo upload and posting process here, it is entirely way too difficult and complicated to use. But I'll try to get some pics for you got here and there.
happy for ypu bigblue. hope things continue to work out for you.
Quote from: jwade on October 30, 2016, 05:02:35 PM
happy for ypu bigblue. hope things continue to work out for you.
Thanks!
Years ago when I bought my first truck, an older trucker gave me a bit of advice.
It was just one sentence. Don't look back, meaning on the weeks you net zero or LESS and their will be plenty of them, don't look back and start thinking how much would I have made at the factory. It was good advise then and just as good today, I still have plenty of those weeks and even months.
Good luck, work hard, work smart and keep focussed on looking forward.
Great post red prospector. I quit my job five years ago. Bought a forwarder and have been making more money every year. The first years I scratched by. It was lots of learning and wrench turning. You need to be good at fixing things. Good at self motivation and setting a pace for yourself. Setting goals and beating those goals. You need to be patient but stubborn. Just keeping pushing and you will make it. Put wood on the landing everyday that you can even if it's only a thousand bf. Plan out how you are going to cut a woods. Round the corners and look for different ways to be efficient. If one way isn't working drop that quick and find a new way. People that know me know that I always find a way to get it done. That gets me work and respect. When I went on my own I hated what I was doing and I had four kids to feed. I was sole provider and two months into my Logging career one more on the way. I made six figures last year and I sub mostly for mills. It can be done. You are going to need more machine tho. Depending on your ground forwarder or skidder. If your ground will allow it a forwarder is the way to go. You need very little room for a landing which is a big deal around here when crops are on the fields.
Starmac,
Great advice! I have many years experience being self employed in the lawn business, many years ago. I miss it greatly. I didn't make a fortune and there's little room for profit in that business if you're buying commercial equipment and being fully legitimate. If you use cheaper equipment you'll have even less profit. I recall several years I couldn't have claimed a profit on my taxes if I wanted to...
RHP,
I'm real good at fixing things, I build everything myself, rebuild what is cheaper to buy than build, modify everything, rebuilt a manual transmission once, a few engines, have built trucks Jeeps etc. It's the only way I know. I don't understand how anyone can not be able to work on their own stuff.
Forwarders are non existent here... I've never seen one in person, ever. Grapple skidders are pretty uncommon here as well. Most every outfit around has older cable skidders or dozers with winch. A self loading truck is very uncommon here as well. There's not much flat ground timber here, most of the best timber in the area is on hills you'd never get a forwarder on anyway... Hardwood country. Some guys I know periodically put a wheel skidder down a hill on the end of a winch cable behind a dozer on top of the hill just to get big ones up a holler. Most of the stuff I'm going for tends to be more level ground as it's near a field. I feel like at this time, low impact smaller select cut jobs are my niche. Time will tell if I need to expand but right now it seems to be the ticket. Everyone loves it and it's easier to not have to compete with really anyone else on these jobs. As far as I can tell at this point, I'm the smallest outfit around and the only one who is setup and willing to do such small jobs. Hopefully it works out 😊
Sounds good. And I bet it will work out. Not many one skidder,one chainsaw,one guy around here. There is one right down the road from me now. The big guys don't want to bother with the small jobs.
Quote from: thecfarm on October 30, 2016, 08:14:14 PM
Sounds good. And I bet it will work out. Not many one skidder,one chainsaw,one guy around here. There is one right down the road from me now. The big guys don't want to bother with the small jobs.
Exactly! My future brother in law is small time but he is now buying his second skidder, has a log truck and equipment trailer and a older front end loader to load with... He's probably not the smallest guy around really, but he's only a few years into it. He's doing good it seems and I don't think he's much behind the average company in terms of equipment. He always has jobs lined up but he contract cuts for a timber buyer. Supposedly the foresters here take a really big chunk and leave the property owner with little. I'm not sure on that but that's what I'm hearing.
I do not know how things work in your area, but it might be possible to do driveways and homesite clearing, plus general thinning and get paid for the logging.
Working on a small scale like you are, it is possible that it could be right up your alley, and folks generally pay contractors good money for these type of work in many areas.
Best money I ever made out the logging side was when I had a regular job - in my case it was a regular 3 days a week operating heavy equipment for a guy as relief for his permanent crew.
It gave me some smoothing on cash flow, meant that what I made working for myself could be largely reinvested into the business rather then going out the door for food and shoes. It also gave me the option of saying "no", rather then having to take marginal jobs or having to work in bad weather to meet payments and eat.
I'd go for it. Keep doing what you're doing but start looking for a good skidder and start talking with veneer buyers etc. A good run of veneer logs at the start can put a dint in the price of a decent machine. Set yourself up with better equipment from the start, iron out the wrinkles, and build it to the point it can stand on its own feet before you toss the security of a regular check.
Good luck with it!
Just read this whole thread. Congratulations to you. 8) Seems like you have two main strengths that make you successful.
First is good business sense. Starting small, keeping stuff paid for, and working that factory job until you had a foot in the door with a couple people. Second some good to great mechanical skill. That kind of stuff is constant.
Actually I should mention that good business sense again as you have avoided the full-time firewood trap and identified a niche in area. I've seen plenty of guys that could work hard and skillful too not make it because of bad decision making.
Anyways like I said I read the whole post this morning and on the first page I was thinking like many here advocating you should work your way into bigger equipment as you get the money for it. I think that is a wrong priority with your niche of small woodlots. Rather I suggest it is vital to place your first investments into financial security. That would your business set up as an LLC with good liability and life insurance. Follow that with six months of living expenses in a savings account. Then the home paid off and four or five hundred every month in investment accounts.
In reality, I believe we do are best when there's no choice but to starve. Meaning if your hungry you can make it self-employed. I have been since 24. One mistake I see alot is ounce a person gets a grand in there pocket they ease up then hit it hard again when there out. And alot of careers like logging can make a great deal of money one week and nothing for several. Managing money is as important as making it. Back in college they said the 5 year mark was the tuff one after that it wasn't bad. Well I completely agree. But I didn't have a safety net like a regular job at the time other than 3 states away. I never thought of failing, bumps in road maybe. I now have 4 businesses and several employees (ie: all u can eat buffet of headaches). Like the skidder, u go full time you'll upgrade.
Quote from: killamplanes on November 01, 2016, 10:26:04 PM
In reality, I believe we do are best when there's no choice but to starve. Meaning if your hungry you can make it self-employed. I have been since 24. One mistake I see alot is ounce a person gets a grand in there pocket they ease up then hit it hard again when there out. And alot of careers like logging can make a great deal of money one week and nothing for several. Managing money is as important as making it. Back in college they said the 5 year mark was the tuff one after that it wasn't bad. Well I completely agree. But I didn't have a safety net like a regular job at the time other than 3 states away. I never thought of failing, bumps in road maybe. I now have 4 businesses and several employees (ie: all u can eat buffet of headaches). Like the skidder, u go full time you'll upgrade.
AMEN!! I couldn't agree more!! it is like marriage. takes a lot of work and it failing is not an option....unless your skidder cheats on you ;D but seriously when you make money put it in the bank and keep your foot on the gas. if you think that your not working hard enough then your not even close to working hard enough. I have been full time self employed since 2005 ( I was 24 also). the recession of 2008 was tough but we made it luckily. I'm not bragging but a lot of people said it cant be done but I'm not " a lot" of people. I don't love every day but pretty close and nobody likes everyday. even superman has crappy days :D push, push, push more and youll be ok ;)
Thanks for all the great replies guys! I'm pretty diverse, I'll do some repair and fabrication work here and there when I'm slow as well. Also have a couple of tree services that sometimes call me to pickup residential tree removals. They pay me to come pickup the big stuff saves them renting skid steer and dump trailer they don't own. I make money using my log trailer/loader and get firewood. Hardwood is all I can sell here but I burn soft wood in my outside boiler. So I have some other things to do to make money. I'll still sell firewood as I can. I'll be cashing out some of my retirement and putting it in savings for rainy day fund. Now to get my Indiana timber buyer's license...