Skidder comparisons for a newbie in the northeast

[General007]

New to the forum but have been checking out posts for a while now trying to do my research before I decide on a skidder to buy.  So here's what I plan on doing with the skidder: 
1. I'm located in southern Vermont so the terrain is tight and steep so this has eliminated most larger skidders right out of the gate for me.  
2. I own a excavation company and a sugarhouse on 100 acres of land and am looking for just a small skidder to skid firewood with and clear the occasional building lot.  
3. Id like something user friendly and that doesnt have a screaming Detroit in it. 
Right now available in my area are a ton of the john deere 440 series and a few Cats, I'm looking to spend under 15k right now as I cant justify spending a ton on something that will be sitting most of the year as a "toy".
So I guess my question comes down to from what limited knowledge I have with skidders is:  Between a Deere and a Cat which is better?  I'm looking at mostly 440a and b series a few c series also a couple 540's and for the Cats a 518 and a 508.  I like the Cat just because I own Cat excavators but it seems like the Deeres are a bit more plentiful in the area and might be easier to find used parts for.
I know this is a broad question but this is where I'm at and have searched a ton for more information on the two and havent really found any comparisons on the older cats and deeres.  Thanks everyone  

[Skeans1]

I'll bite, how long are the turns? If they aren't that long with that type of terrain lends itself more towards a track skidder then a wheel skidder. Something a D4H TSK or a 517 both were available with an arch and winch only.

[General007]

I dont think a track skidder will fall in my price range of 15k or less thanks

[Ed_K]

 Take a ride up to Nash equipment in colebrook N.H. they'll have a number of kinds of skidder's you can get on an try out. To bad you don't like the detroits.

[General007]

Its not that I dont like detroits its the fact that I have 2 of them on my crushers that by the end of the week I'm sick of listening to them run so I thought I'd shoot for something maybe a little quieter haha if that makes any sense 

[loggerman1959]

Timberjack 230 , JD 440 , both good machines for small operations . Nash in NH is a good place to look

[General007]

Thanks theres a ton of the Deeres around I'm going to look at a 440a today comes with a bunch of spare parts.  Is there anything to really look for on these machines besides the common cracks in the frame over the front axle and from reading on here there's a switch or something on the transmission that can be problematic. 

[Dieseldog5.9]

There is a nice looking 440 for sale in Bennington VT, the guy listing the machine is from NY, name is Jon if memory serves me right, he has a number of skidders for sale he is a broker for skidders, seems like a straight up character over the phone.

Unfortunately you may have to give on one of your items, Detroit engines are in most skidders under 15k, Deere skidders under 15k have been worked hard and need major repair. Transmissions can be pricy to repair, and Deere has a corner on there own parts.

Nash equipment has a lot of options, super premium price, the problem is they have their own special way of repairing things.

A Timberjack with a cummins would be a gem if you could find one, probably going to be more than 15k.

[Puffergas]

I would go with a TJ with a screaming Detroit. A few things to help with the song a Detroit makes: turbo, aluminum valve cover on silicone and fine tooth timing gears.

[General007]

Whats the difference in the Deere 440a vs the 440b?  Is there actually any

[BargeMonkey]

Couldn't pay me to take a 440, A or B. C isn't bad, D is the nicest of the 4 but they all sucks as far as stability. 3315/ 3325 can be a nightmare, once they are set right you leave them alone, I've spend days under a tarp wrenching on a 3325, I've got all the books for both Cs and Ds if you needed info. If you really wanted a nice machine I know where a mint tree farmer is, Detroit but Andy Swinton says he hasn't seen a cleaner one in a long time, guy would part with it for the right money, it's on 18.4x26. I've been to Nash, your on your own with that stuff, some isn't thrashed but most is, sin hider and make them look pretty. 
 Theres a 518 for sale out by cherry valley, I believe Don has it, they where a rugged machine. I see that guy on CL selling skidders, some look good, that 640D in Albany isn't bad but it needs 10-15k thrown at it, further ahead to buy a go to the woods machine. 

[Jack Lilley]

The 440C is a great skidder, I owned one for several years, dependable, start real good in the winter, easy to work on and get around the woods with. 

[Southside]

If you could find a smaller Tree Farmer or a Franklin, they are well built machines.  Everyone gets scared because Franklin went out of business - but they are a component built machine, I have two with Cummins engines, Clark transmissions, Eaton axles, the hydraulics are all standard stuff, so the parts can be found quite easily.  

[General007]

Ive got my eye on a couple tree farmers and franklins they look like decent rigs.  I'd really like a 440c as they seem to be much more modernized and the cab looks more refined with more space but I'm not sure my budget will allow it seeing most people selling them are looking for over 20k and for something i'm not going to work with everyday its kinda hard to justify even tho id be better off in the long run im sure.

[Dieseldog5.9]

A buddy of mine bought a 440c for 27k, then spent 10k to fix a transmission leak.  

[celliott]

Find a Clark with a Cummins engine and call it a day. Don't worry about winch issues, Clark winches are awesome. Transmissions are pretty bulletproof, rugged axles and planetaries. There's a reason other manufacturers used Clark components. 
Heck even a Detroit powered one isn't bad with a good muffler.
You see the 664's pop up reasonably priced pretty often.
Many parts can be had from Pete's equipment in Morrisville, used to be a Clark dealer.
My 666c came from down Rutland way.

[Grandpa]

Whats the difference in the Deere 440a vs the 440b?  Is there actually any

Not an expert here, but, as far as I know, the difference between an A and a B was the B had better wheels and a turbocharger.

[snowstorm]

Whats the difference in the Deere 440a vs the 440b?  Is there actually any

the big thing was the axles gone were the cast steel hubs. so different wheels. turbo blade was improved. winch.  winch driveline .frame was a bit stronger. cage was screened in on the sides. and a few other things i have missed

[General007]

I found a 73 Cat 518 that seems to be in good shape from talking to the owner and by pictures, but whats the major things to look for in one of these skidders when I go look at it in person.  Obviously running, winch working, center pins and driving are key things to see and try out but are there any specific things to be on the lookout for? thanks

[Skeans1]

A big thing is can you get parts? With something that old I don't care if it's Cat or Deere make sure parts are available.

[78NHTFY]

General007--same as you, have acreage, work alone & do part time logging in hilly NH, used to only use tractor/winch.  Last year got a 440B, '70's vintage.  Perfect for me: it's quiet & most everything works and no leaks;  have pulled up to 5 full-length hard wood trees (bush top limbed) at a time on my straight skid road sections (gotta drop them at just the right angle to the skid road, they don't bend good around bumper trees).  Pulled about 30 cord last year, sold 20, bucked up the rest for my wood stove (yup, by hand to keep in shape ).  I checked Nash (see Bargemonkey's comment), Michael Sharp in Bristol NH (good shop, almost got a Cat 518, but too big for me), finally got my 440B from a local kid who was upgrading.  I try to only log with the skidder when ground is frozen, or when it's very dry--a 10 ton machine can really mess my woods when it's wet out and I don't have the time to clean up after myself....good luck with your search.  All the best, Rob.

 

[BargeMonkey]

 I've got nothing but good things to say about Sharps, wouldnt hesitate to buy something from Mike. Nice little gun shop down the road from him also 😂 

[General007]

Thanks for the suggestions.  Im going to look at a 440b and a cat 518 this weekend.  I run Cat excavators so that's mostly my draw to the Cat the 440's seem to almost be the ideal machine for a small firewood operation/sugar lot management/small scale logging. Hopefully I'll have a better idea after looking this weekend.  Having an under 15k price range also limits the machine pool a bit.   

[Southside]

FWIW I had a 440 and sold / traded it for my Franklin 170 with a grapple and winch for your budget price.  Fixed a few leaks on it, nothing major, and it is a great machine.  There are deals out there, just have to find it.  There is no comparison between the two machines and no way I would ever trade back.  The Drag Queen is a big machine, but honestly, not too big to get around if you are careful and with the wider tires she does not tear the ground up any worse than the 440 did.  

[BargeMonkey]

 Everyone has in their mind that a "small" skidder does such a nicer job, its 90% operator. My 460 is 10'4" wide and I can do stuff that 440D cant attempt and still not beat everything to death. A 518 vs a 440 all boils down to condition, 518 is ALOT more stable machine. I've never had my 440 all the way over but I've had 3 wheels in the air and the cab resting on a tree, the A-B series where even worse. 3315-3325 winch's should be made into boat anchors, find something with a 4000/ 6000 winch and you will be alot happier. 

[longtime lurker]

What Barge said about "small" skidders. Footprint is always all about the operator... hang 40' of log behind a 440 and it needs the same room to turn and churns up the ground more than a 648. 

[General007]

Well I went and looked at a couple of machines this weekend 2 440s an a and a b and a cat 518.  Defiantly leaning towards the cat seems like a lost more machine for the same price point.  The cab ergonomics are way better and I really like the 3 speed powershift compared to the synchro shift on the deere's.  The winch on all of them seem pretty user friendly.  Guess we'll see by weeks end if I decide to go look at one other machine or take the Cat home.  

[BargeMonkey]

 They all suck to fix, the problem is the parts for those older deeres, I have a 440D and some of the parts for the parking brake DONT EXIST anymore, hunting boneyards or getting them made. I dont know the older 518s real well, but they where a stable machine, once you get used to that center pivot you cant go back to a deere. It's a buyers market for iron right now, decent machines around. 

[General007]

Seems like Cat carries most parts for the machine have no clue about every part but their network is usually good.  And defiantly is a buyers market there's a lot of small skidders in the northeast available right now for decent pricing.  

[BargeMonkey]

 They all suck, Nortrax is the worst. Milton depends who you deal with. I have to get Timbco parts from Anderson in ME because of CJs and those guys are real good. The problem is the good deals are going fast, I waited 1wk to long on a slasher, everyone's sitting on the computer at night snatching stuff up, woodprices are coming back and 90% of what you see for sale is thrashed so if you find something decent I wouldnt wait long. 

[General007]

Does seem as most stuff has been slightly used  :D.  Most everything needs some sort of tinkering I'm hoping to find something without to much cobbing or major issues  

[BargeMonkey]

 An old fisherman I worked with who had built quite a few new boats at Washburn said it best, payments or repairs, you sink when your making both.  

[ehp]

we use to have 7 - 440's in the later 70's . Like barge said the winches are not nice , when they work yep they work but lots of days they sure do not . 518 is a bigger skidder than a 440 and work well, just make sure the frame part that only allows the machine to steer only so far to the right and left are in and the proper thickness , seen lots that the drivers let go to far or to the point that part was missing, with that part not being proper you end up cracking the tranny case and that's pretty costly to fix IF you can find a new case cause lots of cases have been cracked. Look for a TJ and see what is out there , there everywhere and cheap to fix

[General007]

The 518 im looking at seems to be pretty tight and clean.  Obviously for the age it isnt perfect, but for just a part time use it should do what I ask.  Biggest issue with the machine I see are the front tires are on their last limb so those will need to be replaced soonish. 

[celliott]

Does that 518 have a gearmatic winch or is it new enough for the cat/lufkin winch?

If the tires hold air and have good tubes and chains I wouldn't worry too much. I was concerned when I got my Clark, because the tires are pretty worn, one is downright slick, but, good chains and they all had new tubes when I got it, they've been fine. I also am not full time and tend to go a little lighter with the hitches.

[thecfarm]

I have never owned a skidder,but just spent almost $800 on a tractor tire. I hear skidders tires are much more!!

[Skeans1]

@thecfarm
We a 700 sized 26.5 on sale were 2500

[thecfarm]

ouch!!

[General007]

It has a gearmatic winch which Ive read a ton of things about sounds like they can be problematic is they get wet, idk? I was told that it had been recently rebuilt and it seemed to work fine not that I pulled a load with it so we'll see.  This has 18.4-26 rubber on it so they're expensive to buy new but honestly I thought I'd be worse not that 1200$ for new tire is cheap but I've found some local used tires about 50% tread for a little under half price.  Once I get it in my yard I'll see if I pursue tires I just know one of the fronts weren't great and starting to de-laminate so I'm sure it's only a matter of time before its an issue. 

[BargeMonkey]

Just bought 2x new 23.5 rock tires.... 😂  50% worn skidder tires aren't worth 1/2 of new, by the time you have a problem with 1-2 tubes and take your chains off your better off biting the bullet the first time. On smaller tires you buy a Firestone Ls2 forestry tire, buy a primex for a couple hundred less and your not saving money. 

[General007]

Is it bad to run a new tire with a worn out tire?  I kinda thought you were supposed to keep the tires the same on each axle to not damage the differentials.  Id prefer to go new but dont want to buy 2 new tires for a machine that's a glorified toy around the property for firewood, if it was used everyday id buy new tires in a heartbeat. 

[BargeMonkey]

 If you can find 2x tires for the right money its worth while, but don't pay good money for well worn. 18.4 tires are around, I know where 4x new ones are mounted on deere rims all chained up for ok money. Run it till it wont take anymore, you will be surprised how long a forestry tire lives, I got away with ag tires on the front of my 440 for a few yrs till I got a rock one day. Run your better tires on the back and the worst ones on the front with chains. 

[General007]

I found a pair of used firestone 18.4-26 tires at 50% for 800$ a pair I didnt think that was to bad for tires but dont really know the market.

[Ed_K]

 That's a great deal. I had 1 bald front an 1 at 20% on the taylor for a number of yrs and found a 20% for $200. It's been on for 14 yrs with chains and I haven't had any problems. Like said run your better ones on the back.

[Dieseldog5.9]

Are the air brakes in the 518 problematic?

[mills]

Are the air brakes in the 518 problematic?

When I bought my mine the brakes worked, but were worn out. Over the course of three years I replaced the compressor, diaphragm/actuator, master cylinder, and pads. Haven't had any problems now in over five years.

[BargeMonkey]

I found a pair of used firestone 18.4-26 tires at 50% for 800$ a pair I didnt think that was to bad for tires but dont really know the market.

You dont lose on new skidder tires, if you ever decide to sell the machine normally good rubber makes or breaks a deal. An 18.4 you can probably do yourself, I dont fight them, never re-use a tube, so the cost to mount a tire a couple times doesn't take long and you've covered the cost of new. 

[General007]

Ive changed a ton of loader tires but never any skidder tires.  My assumption is the rims are the same style as a loader?  Most of the time rust is the issue with getting the rings off.  I'll have to see new rubber is great but not sure if my budget will allow.

[Riwaka]

There are a variety of different heavy equipment (tire) rim designs.

Modern skidder rim type with dual wheel plates. Using a service truck crane that is a suitable design (no sharp edges etc)to place skidder tires on rims (and remove them as well)   and a bucket of tire 'soap'.  Buy a fair bit of a crane for the cost of a hernia repair operation.

Mounting 30.5 tires - Nokian LoggerKing LS2 - YouTube

[tj240]

I'm late with the reply, but you can't go wrong with a TJ 240, mine is a240a, with a 6 cyl. duetze, I have never had an issue with it starting.  I was a JD guy until this one, will put it places a JD shouldn't go. cheaper to fix and stable!!! But it is stick steering and you have to take the transfer case out of gear to winch, but I LOVE this skidder. Good luck and stay safe

[David-L]

Id go with a Timberjack, I had a 440B once,

 and once I went to the 200 series Jacks I would never go back. If your young then climbing in all day might not be an issue on the Deere. But if your body is worn, well you can't beat a 200 series Jack. Easy in and out. The best one man machine out there in my opinion. This was a 225D I had, nice small machine, I now have a 240B to pull a bit more. 
                                      

 

[sandersen]

I agree with David-L all the way!!!

[General007]

Well I got the 518 home yesterday didn't get much time to play with it yet. Needs a few odds and ends but overall runs great starts right up 15 degrees here yesterday.  Now I'm looking for a set of ice chains for the rear the previous owner told me the tires were 18.4-26 well he was wrong they're 18.4-34 had a set all lined up for the 18.4-26 good thing I waited till I got it in my yard.  Oh well

[General007]

Here's one picture of it hopefully more to come.  It's no looker and needs a fresh coat of paint.

[General007]

If I figure out how to post a picture

[nativewolf]

Congrats!  

[General007]

[General007]

Finally got out into the woods to try out the old Cat.  Everything seems to work well on the machine seems to pull and run good, winch holds and pulls good biggest issue I have is freespool is very hard to do not sure if its due to lack of use or that its a gearmatic.  Seems to be a lot of write ups about various issues with them, maybe someone has an idea on what should be adjusted to help with the freespool issue.  But overall very happy so far. 

  

[Ed_K]

 Run it for awhile it may just be rusted up some from not being used. There's a hex screw on top of the casting on the band side you can try turning c/cw and see if that helps.