Dozer winch plumbing

Jkauffman · July 16, 2021, 10:05:40 PM

I've got a komatsu d37e-2 that I'm gonna put a hydraulic winch on.I just wondered if I should plumb in my valve ahead of or behind the blade control valve?Also will the hydraulic pump be okay with a decent amount of use?Should I install a hydraulic temp gauge?This is just a dozer for some personal use logging and clearing,not for hire so speed isn't that big a deal.Thanks

mike_belben · July 16, 2021, 10:33:06 PM

The safest way is to come off the pump to a tee. The tee houses an adjustable relief valve and a gauge. The relief should get its own line back to tank with filtration ideally. Then you can go to whichever valve you prefer first without worry of exploding anything from stacked up differential pressure while absent mindedly using the blade and winch at the same time.

Whichever valve you want to have priority should be first since the one downstream will be blocked while the one upstream is in use. but i dont think it matters too much in that case.. Blade and cable dont really get simultaneous use. If you put the winch valve at the right rear of the cab youll have a hard time using both at once anyway without twisting your left hand to the blade sticks.

g_man · July 17, 2021, 11:00:27 AM

If it were me, not an expert but know some basics, I would put the winch valve first using a motor valve with power beyond. PB port would go to blade control valve input. Many blade control valves are no designed to withstand pressure on the tank port. By putting the winch first you will insure this doesn't happen.

gg

g_man · July 17, 2021, 11:01:16 AM

Quote from: g_man on July 17, 2021, 11:00:27 AM
If it were me, not an expert but know some basics, I would put the winch valve first using a motor valve with power beyond. PB port would go to blade control valve input. Many blade control valves are no designed to withstand pressure on the tank port. By putting the winch first you will insure this doesn't happen.

gg

?.. did some wrong ?

mike_belben · July 17, 2021, 12:52:10 PM

No it shows up fine for me gman.

The blade valve may well have power beyond convertability and if a plug is still available can be converted to feed the winch valve downstream of the PB plug. The PB kit will prevent the exhaust side from seeing working pressure by giving it a dedicated tank line. and you are right, some valves will probably spill their guts from work pressure on the exhaust side so it can be bad. i havent had it occur yet on my own junk plumbed in series without PB kits but its definitely a thing to be very aware of, like stacking poppet pressures.

If his winch does not have a mechanical brake to hold the drum then he will need to use a cylinder centered valve or else the line will reel out as he drives away. I assumed he is putting on an old worm gear braden or tulsa etc salvage unit. The factory komatsu PTO bolt on jobs are pretty hard to find.

Jkauffman · July 17, 2021, 07:45:50 PM

Thanks guys I appreciate the responses.My winch is an older lantec dozer winch.I got a valve from the same guy I got the winch from but I'm not sure it's a pb valve(I'm pretty dumb on hydraulics as you can see🤨)it has a big port on the opposite side of the inflow that is marked outflow.Would this make it a power beyond?

Jkauffman · July 18, 2021, 10:29:37 PM

I tried posting a pic of my valve but no success.I'm almost positive it is a pb valve.So can I just plumb it into the main line coming from the pump than run the line out the other side to got to blade control valves.Doesn't it need a drain goin from the added valve to the tank?It has a port for that.Also what about regulating pressure if I put the valve there?Thanks for your patience,I know a lot more about engines than hydraulics

g_man · July 19, 2021, 05:20:00 PM

It is hard to say the best way without knowing the details of what you have. The tank port question is easy though - you need to tee that into any line returning directly back to the hydraulic tank or into the tank itself if there convenient plug. The winch control valve may contain a built in pressure relief valve. If it doesn't you should put one in up stream. If you don't know, putting one in up stream won't hurt anything even if it is redundant. The PRV will have a tank port also.

It is to bad you can't get info on the blade control and winch valves. If the blade control valve can take pressure on the tank/out port you could put the winch valve down stream from it like Mike suggested. Then you could use the PRV in the blade control valve and not have to add one.

gg

mike_belben · July 19, 2021, 09:54:16 PM

Just buy a winch valve with an adjustable relief and a power beyond and plumb that in upstream of the blade valve.

The new valve has 5 ports. A/B are work ports, they go to the winch's hydraulic motor. "P" is the inlet valve from the pump. "T" or "exh" is the line to go to the filterhead and tank. "PB" is the line that will now go to the blade valve inlet port. Its exhaust plumbing will also go to the filterhead. A Tee into it will be fine.

Just be sure the gpm and pressure rating of the new valve is able to take the pump flow and not have lower pressure than the blade currently uses now. A gauge tee off the pump hardpipe would help set the relief pressure. If your first valve is st 2300psi and your second is 2500 then the 2300psi poppet opens and limits both.

Jkauffman · July 19, 2021, 10:59:16 PM

I'll have to check on the blade control valve I guess,just realized that blade control is about 2500 psi and winch is 2000.The winch valve does have 5 ports and a built in pressure relief.It looks as if I need to install after blade cluster but I'll have to check that out.Thanks a lot for y'all's help

mike_belben · July 19, 2021, 11:59:33 PM

Yes.. The pressure will have to cascade downward as it gets further from the pump. Double check all your specs before you get too invested in plan A.

Jkauffman · July 21, 2021, 09:23:13 AM

I think my best option is goin to be put a diverter valve in so one more question😊can I use my power beyond valve for that?Do I need to run the "power beyond line"to the tank or can I convert it to a closed center valve n use it that way.

mike_belben · July 21, 2021, 12:10:35 PM

Your question makes me think you might not understand yet how this all really works and thats fine. It starts off as a blank spot in your head and fills in a little at a time like a jigsaw puzzle coming together.

I think that you mean a 6 port selectable diverter valve so that your blade stick can also become your winch control stick. this would go in your A/B work ports of one spool and the power beyond will not be needed in any way as you are not feeding an additional spool valve. You are using one existing spool and making it able to serve 2 different functions.

That is a fine way to do it if the pressure and spool center type suit both functions. however you will not have the ability to designate different pressures to the blade and winch (unless you add an independant relief valve between the selector port and winch port on the reel-in side with a line back to tank- not so sleek or cost effective as just adding a downstream valve on power beyond to run the winch. Rube goldbergish.)

so if your blade runs 2500 psi your winch will potentially do so as well by using a selectable diverter, because there is only one relief in the system and its at blade pressure setting which you dont want to reduce.. It would require a load (logs) large enough to generate the resistance to build that 2500 psi in the winch. but that would be the max pressure before the relief cartridge cracks open and vents it back down. That pressure might not break anything in the winch rated for 2k (right? Or am i dreaming i read that?), or it might.

Jkauffman · July 21, 2021, 07:17:46 PM

The jigsaw puzzle describes it perfectly haha.Yeah I've never done much with hydraulics so this is pretty new.

What I actually was trying to say is if I would put in a manual diverter valve in between pump and blade control so that one would run to blade control,the other to the winch.Someone had mentioned this earlier and it would be slightly unhandy as it would limit the other function but would work because u wouldn't really need the blade while winching logs.And what I meant about the valve I have is that I have a power beyond valve that I got with the winch and was just wondering about using it with the diverter.If I would what would I do with the line coming out of that valve?Lol if you are sufficiently confused you don't have respond

I think I see what U are saying about using the blade control and a diverter to run winch.Like if I would use the "6th way" valve for lack of better terms,than switch and run the winch when needed if I could get the pressure regulated right

I'm waiting to here back from someone about the capability of the blade control valve to have a valve put in downstream.That would be the easiest it seems like

mike_belben · July 21, 2021, 09:49:52 PM

If you invest the time to put up pics of your winch and its hydraulic ports, the valve you got with it and a couple views of your blade valve from the side door, i will invest the time to sketch you a schematic.

The pics will answer my too many questions. Without those answered i dont wanna risk drawing up a bomb for you.

Jkauffman · July 22, 2021, 06:13:18 PM

Jkauffman · July 22, 2021, 06:14:54 PM

Can ya'll see the pics?My phone is acting up,or more like it's me lol

Also I called the lantec factory and asked them about the max psi for my winch.The service guy said about 3,000,and it sounded kinda like a guess IMO but he should know what he's talking about.Is that crazy high?

mike_belben · July 22, 2021, 07:59:51 PM

Nah 3,000 would be my guesstimate too.
I will try to get back to you with my shoddy opinion tonight.

Jkauffman · July 27, 2021, 07:40:23 PM

Also was gonna ask what do I need to fasten this winch on?Its not a direct fit of course and just wasn't sure about how many and what sized bolts I'd need.Wimch will be around 1k and has 12,500 pull.Brake is good for 24,000 lb and dozer supposedly has around 18,000 lb pull.I have a plan in mind and am expecting to do some heavy duty fabrication but just wasn't sure on the bolts

mike_belben · July 27, 2021, 09:49:41 PM

Man i am so sorry i dropped the ball on this.

My flash just wont get a good image of the sketch so i tweaked all the editing filters until it popped. Sorry it looks goofy.

This is your current setup. Tank to pump to valve to filter to tank.. An open center loop.

I am pretty certain after looking at your pics that this is what you need to do. Put that valve in the lead, upstream of your blade valve, which i drew as a 3 spool for a 6 way blade.. If its only 2 spool still same thing. Those circles i drew represent pairs of work ports going to cylinders... A&B A&B A&B. Here is the sketch..

We will have some things to verify on that valve before you do this. It needs a certain configuration. I will start hammering out another post...

mike_belben · July 27, 2021, 10:14:56 PM

So what you need is very specific. Lets go down the list.

Its a single spool valve. Check.

It looks to have an adjustable internal relief valve.. That acorn cap nut rig. Take it apart and verify there is a poppet and spring setup underneath. If so, check. This will give you independant relief valves in each back. Its not foolproof yet. You can still blow stuff up.

So next question.. It looks to have 3 body ports, which is inlet, exhaust and power beyond. Check? Look for "bey" or "PB" markings. This will make it safe to run the two valves in series no matter what you do with the levers simultaneously. The PB part makes it so no relief valve ever has high pressure on the back side. Since differential poppets only measure pressure difference from two chambers and not absolute pressure, the dont know 2500 from 5000. 2500 psi on the back takes 2500 more psi on the front before it opens. Kaboom.

Next up, It needs an open center configuration. That means at rest you can blow air into the inlet and it will blow out the exhaust only. Or out the power beyond port if its configured for beyond.x there is usually a plug that converts them and yours may not be installed. Either way air should blow through with no valve moved. If not, stop right there. If it blows out the work ports at rest, also no-go.

The single spool needs 3 positions. It needs to spring itself back to that center position when you let off from either direction, exactly like a 3 way momentary toggle switch.. ON-OFF-ON.

Now when you stroke the spool 1 way and blow into the inlet it should come out only one of the work ports. Stroke the opposite way and it must come out only from the other work port. The exhaust port will also have opposing connection to the work ports but the power beyond port will NOT have connection to the work ports at any time. PB Only has continuity to the inlet port when the spool is centered. I know its a lot to take in. Just air gun it step by step.

The last detail is whether the work ports of the center position need to be "cylinder spools" or "motor spools" ... But..

You mentioned a brake. So we kinda need to know more about the brake. Is it mechanical and automatic? Or is it hydraulic and additional control mechanism?

A thousand pound winch that only pulls 12,500 seems odd to me. Id expect 20T or so. Can you post more pics of this winch and or make and model?

Jkauffman · July 27, 2021, 11:35:46 PM

Wow mike thanks for your time!

I will check out the valve in the tomorrow

The winch is a lantec 5820-2 and yes I was surprised at the size vs pull,seems like a overkill on the size of it.It is pretty much an archaic winch so that may have something to do with it I guess

I do have a limited manual for the winch and the schematic they have drawn up has nothing to do with a brake so I guess it's automatic.Just 3 hoses,1 forward,1 reverse,and a vent to tank

mike_belben · July 28, 2021, 09:55:45 AM

Okay, i see by images tab its a whopper of a winch meant for overhead lifting on carry decks and cranes. So thats why the small rating, its probably at a 4x safety factor or higher.

I am guessing its full of stacked planetaries and will be very slow but a slow winch is faster than a no winch. If it has a load holding brake (id wager a lot that a crane winch has an incredible brake) it is probably a friction style that rubs the interior of the cross tube inside the cable drum and the motor shaft runs through the center. It will be like some sort of one way clutch.

With that said, i would not worry much about whether the winch spool needs to be a cylinder spool or a motor spool. In fact i forgot to ask if you got the valve separately or if they were pulled as a match from the same machine. If a pair i would not give it another thought and just get it on there.

As for mounting youre gonna want a big pile of steel and gonna be blowing some big holes in it. The back of the dozer has large metric bolt holes drilled and tapped all over the rear end casting. I highly suggest using every hole, and if you have access to a mag drill with annular cutters now is the time to beg for a borrowing. Dont be afraid to drill oversize and use big washers to make alignment go easy if incase you bore one off a bit or it warps in welding, which it will. So bolt the piece secure to the machine before welding and keep it bolted until naturally cool. No water quenching. I would be making this from 1/2" steel with 3/8 guessets min.

You need to protect the winch motor, plumbing and planetary with iron, for when you have no choice but to back into the logs behind you, itll happen. and you will also want to build a high roller lead for the cable to raise the butts up very high. Use thick large round pipe anywhere a cable may drag against the metal.. I grease those pipes to keep the cable from fraying.

At the top of a stout frame a roller with a bearing should be used, chest high if possible. Take-off bottom rollers from a dozer or ex are great for this since they have huge axles, sealed bearings and a big flange to keep the cable on.

Leave the option for the cable to pull straight out the back without going over the roller. You can get a lot more line pull force with a low line, without flipping dozer back on its heels this way, for getting unstuck or pulling another stuck or flipped machine.

Also give it some thought to make the winch mount in a way that it can have a trailer hitch and potentially any other rear implement you may want to run. Rippers, fire break plows, 3pt hitch stuff, etc etc etc. A forestry trailer behind a D37 could pull a lot of sawlogs out. The dozer's pump could run most anything you dream up with more hydraulics tapped in.

For the winch case drain line, where i have drawn a tee upstream of the filter, you should install a cross. Thats a 4 port intersection piece, sched40 is fine there. Run your winch valve's exhaust, your winch's case drain line and a pressure gauge into it. That gauge will tell you when its time to change the hydraulic filter. This way nothing can puke its guts directly into the tank. A filter will catch any trash that gets introduced from these new parts youre adding. The gauge up at the pump end is how you will tune your relief valves and how you will immediately know if there is a low pressure condition in the future. The hardpipe coming off your pump has a little plugged port if its like my D31P-18. The komatsu uses metric hoses. I would cut the hardpipe under the floor and weld on a JIC male fitting to use normal america jic swivel hose to feed the winch valve. To use an american hose between the two valves, you will need to buy a JIC to (i think!) SAE oring male adapter for entry to the blades inlet port. If im remembering right the dozer blade has SAE oring ports and all metric hoses so it has a metric to sae adapter you will remove and install a jic to sae adapter in order to keep your new hoses all cheap american ones. The exhaust side of your dozer blade may or may not need to be changed to include that tee.

The mixture of metric and america will be the most annoying details. Just be sure to look close at that stuff. It may be cheaper to leave the oem komatsu exhaust and filter side alone, then plumb in a second filterhead to tank for the new exhaust lines. Id have to be there looking at the machine to make an accurate estimate.

Jkauffman · July 28, 2021, 10:33:08 PM

Thanks again you are a tremendous help

I checked the valve tonight...Air blows out exhaust and power beyond port simultaneously,also air blows out work ports just when valve is actuated in either direction.Will I have to install the plug?

Valve wasn't hooked up with this winch before.And yes this winch was made for a crane or dozer

Also somewhere I saw that a log arch is hard on the final drives of the dozer,what's ur thoughts on that?I wold love to build one

mike_belben · July 29, 2021, 01:33:26 AM

Quote from: Jkauffman on July 28, 2021, 10:33:08 PM
...Air blows out exhaust and power beyond port simultaneously,also air blows out work ports just when valve is actuated in either direction.Will I have to install the plug?

..
Also somewhere I saw that a log arch is hard on the final drives of the dozer,what's ur thoughts on that?I wold love to build one

Pull all the caps off and look inside.. Youll probably see a hole with threads in a wall. Thats where a power beyond plug would go. It basically converts the valve so that the work ports can always exhaust to tank freely on their own line, even if you are blocking flow with a downstream valve in that moment. Theres a private exhaust line around that valve.
Bring it to a hose or hyd shop and see if they can ID the right PB plug.
I do see how a high arch puts more weight on the finals but id still have one. If you cant bare the possibility of the machine breaking sell it now and rent as needed! Breaking is just what iron does.